Euro 2024 thread
Comments
-
My tweaks would be as follows:
- End the international breaks during the season, so that the football season starts later
- Hold the qualifiers in the summer and the tournament the following summer
- Make both involve some jeopardy
This would end the need for players to fly round the world for matches multiple times a season and might even increase the quality of play. Plus international managers would then need to manage the fitness of players instead of dumping them back on their clubs.
It would probably be really annoying for the rest of the world to be based around the European seasons.
0 -
I absolutely agree that it is right to question some of GS decisions in any one game. Hindsight plays a great part in this of course but, for instance, I would have liked to see Palmer or Watkins on for Kane earlier in the final.
As touched on by MidlandsGrimpeur up thread, and to avoid any doubt, my point is that over the past 50 years, GS overall record is far, far superior to any other manager. 4 tournaments, one quarter, one semi and two finals. No other England manager has come anything like close to that.
The idiosyncrasies of individual games are certainly up for debate but that record surely isn't.
Wilier Izoard XP1 -
I think the 'expecting England to win' may be the key to the issue. They haven't won in 58 years so any supporters expecting them to win at these tournaments is almost certainly going to be disappointed they then decide it is the manager's tactics at fault. That's a lot of dodgy managers over the years - it feels like a more obvious conclusion is that the structure in English football is at fault in how it develops players (and managers).
0 -
And per my comments above, the armchair experts also have, in addition to hindsight, the advantage of not having their theories tested in practice. Southgates lives or dies (in sporting terms) by the decisions that he makes, along with the decisions the players make, often under intense pressure whilst fatigued.
1 -
You also can't know how the opposition would have responded either - so it's easy to say we should have brought X or Y person on, but for all we know they could easily have changed their tactics or made their own substitution that would have countered it.
I do kind of agree though that if something's not working - and we weren't making a lot of chances in the second half - our best chance was to change things.
0 -
One of the things that does seem to get overlooked by the more excitable anti-Southgate crowd is that the opposition is made up of very good players, with an experienced coach, who are also looking to win the game, rather than to simply anoint the English as "The Best Squad in the Tournament".
FWIW, I think the biggest single "problem" is that the England players aren't collectively as good as they're hyped up to be, particularly wrt decision-making under pressure. Southgate got a lot of stick for Walker's long pass backwards from an attacking position, shortly after England equalised vs Spain, that ultimately ended up back at an under-pressure Pickford who then hoofed the ball for a Spanish goal kick, after which England didn't control the ball again for 6 minutes. But at the end of the day, Walker chose to do that, presumably because he didn't like the look of the options with an attacking throw in. (Not picking on Walker, as I assume there were failings in slipping markets etc; this is just an example of a Southgate "fault" relating to on-field decisions made by his players.)
1 -
Just saw some stats for Southgate’s time in charge. The team scored over 2 goals per game on average and scored 3 for every goal conceded. That seemed pretty decent.
0 -
Sticking 15 past San Marino is going to help with those figures.
0 -
Southgate managed 102 matches for England and 151 for Middlesbrough.
0 -
Some people probably thought they were being too defensive in that match no doubt.
0 -
Sure, but every team plays the likes of San Marino in qualifying
Wilier Izoard XP0 -
What's the goals per game if you ignore the cannon fodder?
0 -
Due to the seeding method the stronger teams generally only get cannon fodder.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I think the part about decision making under pressure has been very relevant in this tournament. I fully accept that England were poor throughout but made incremental improvements from the Quarters onwards. The noticeable difference in the second half against Spain was our lack of ability to keep hold of the ball (I though the first half was cagey and largely even). I have no doubt that the current English players have the technical ability to keep hold of the ball, but it is having the confidence to do so, and play difficult passes under intense pressure, and against a world class opposition. My personal opinion is that this is largely psychological and the onus is on the players to manage it.
I am happy to accept the argument that the tactics and culture also inform this, if you are overly cautious, does this cause the players to freeze at key moments? If you encourage players to attack and play risky low % football whilst accepting mistakes, would this help them?
The problem then becomes wider expectation with England. As has been said in this thread, I don't accept the premise that your average England fan would accept attacking high risk football that meant we got knocked out in the 2nd round. Lots of fans will say they would rather this, than defend our way to a final, but I am unconvinced by such an argument.
As a fan, I would be happy to see a Manager come in and give it a try. The problem is that I think the only current Manager who can implement it successfully is Klopp, and he is very unlikely to be offered it (or accept if he was). I am also not convinced that Howe gives you this.
1 -
I'd say that average goals per game is not a very good metric then.
0 -
England, for a football country, has a real curious lack of managerial and coaching talent, and has done for a long time.
I suspect that is, in large part, a good indicator for where the problem with England lies, and why England keep running into the "good players but can't work together" problem over and over. It's presumably something in the culture of football.
I have a suspicion that the football culture of England is prejudiced against people who intellectualise the game and feats of bravery, hard tackles, "putting your body on the line" etc are over-valued at the expense of more valuable skills.
0 -
I concur.
Unless comparing current squad v cannon fodder against previous iterations.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
At the top level being the richest league does mean clubs are shopping in a global marketplace so it is more difficult for managers to get a job in "their" top division.
That said I do agree that the English football culture is mistrustful of intellectualising the game. A part if that can be seen in the response to anyone that criticises Southgate - but he got us further than anyone else, armchair expert, why can't you just get behind the team - are common retorts to anyone that might have an opinion on tactics.
Also in my limited experience FA coaching badges are seen as you going in to learn from them. The whole England DNA idea (which if you read it is pretty much meaningless waffle) that we should all play the same way is very top down - rather than have a contest of contrasting styles with the more successful rising through natural selection. It's no wonder that the coaches most influential in our domestic game come from abroad because our system isn't conducive to new ideas.
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Who do you have in your list of top managers? In the premier league at the moment, there are three English managers: Eddie Howe, Gary O'Neil and Sean Dyche. Of those, Eddie Howe is reasonably well regarded.
I also think that managers like Sam Allardyce and Graham Potter were reasonably competent.
0 -
The main issue with Southgate is his lack of experience. He's basically done about 5 seasons of football management and the three at Middlesbrough were not particularly successful.
0 -
Coaching, I wonder if this is part of the problem. If you play by the playbook then the opposition knows exactly what your next move will be.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
The English (British) system seems different to elsewhere where we have traditionally had a manager who deals with more than just the playing side of things. Other countries have coaches and then a Director of Football to deal with the other stuff. I know some clubs have gone down that route but it still feels like a completely different culture.
0 -
It's usually a bad sign when a director of football is appointed.
0 -
Working OK for man city
0 -
Do they still have one?
0 -
Currently active? Ancelotti, Pep, Klopp, Zidanne, Simeone, probably Arteta, Unai Emery, Spaletti, Alonso, maybe even Inzaghi.
0 -
Conte, Diniz is supposed to be interesting as is Bielsa - seeing him in charge of England would shake things up anyway.
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
It will, in all likelihood, be Potter (The FA like people who fit the mould). As mentioned before, if you are talking about a really serious bid for the best then surely only Guardiola and Klopp are the two top candidates.
Sadly, I don't think either of them would actually take it.
0 -
-
Perhaps not, but I would love to see one of them give it a go.
I would lean towards Klopp as an international Manager is not really a coaching role as you don't get enough time with players. Guardiola seems very much focussed on developing complex coaching patterns, and you could well be right that this just wouldn't translate to international football. Whereas I think Klopp would find it easier to simplify a tactical plan and then use his motivational skills to bring out the best in players.
0
