Today's discussion about the news

1246771

Comments

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671
    edited October 2023
    rjsterry said:

    That's a weirdly reductivist view RC. Not to say pretty inaccurate.

    I (obviously) disagree. If I could be bothered to dig out some various essays I wrote on the topic I'd argue the toss, but I can't, so I won't.

    Something along the lines of the way it was done created a particularly unsolvable situation and a particularly unstable one, that was also clearly massively impacted by the holocaust etc etc.

    The solution created has all the hallmarks of a very limited "European" understanding of the local situation, without really understanding it on the ground.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,277

    rjsterry said:

    That's a weirdly reductivist view RC. Not to say pretty inaccurate.

    I (obviously) disagree. If I could be bothered to dig out some various essays I wrote on the topic I'd argue the toss, but I can't, so I won't.

    Something along the lines of the way it was done created a particularly unsolvable situation and a particularly unstable one, that was also clearly massively impacted by the holocaust etc etc.

    The solution created has all the hallmarks of a very limited "European" understanding of the local situation, without really understanding it on the ground.
    I appreciate that a European is explaining his understanding this local situation.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671
    pblakeney said:

    rjsterry said:

    That's a weirdly reductivist view RC. Not to say pretty inaccurate.

    I (obviously) disagree. If I could be bothered to dig out some various essays I wrote on the topic I'd argue the toss, but I can't, so I won't.

    Something along the lines of the way it was done created a particularly unsolvable situation and a particularly unstable one, that was also clearly massively impacted by the holocaust etc etc.

    The solution created has all the hallmarks of a very limited "European" understanding of the local situation, without really understanding it on the ground.
    I appreciate that a European is explaining his understanding this local situation.
    Yeah, I think I even wrote about that aspect in a sort of meta point in the essay.

    I loves me some post-modernist stuff.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671

    Am I? I don't feel especially strongly about the whole thing beyond the fact that it's a regular reminder that Europeans projecting their own problems on the rest of the world rarely ends well.

    I mean, this is basically a conflict created out of European guilt, but anyway.

    Zionism initially emerged in Central and Eastern Europe as a national revival movement in the late 19th century, both in reaction to newer waves of antisemitism and as a response to Haskalah, or Jewish Enlightenment
    It stands to reason that you have to conceive the idea of things before you can enact them.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,301
    edited October 2023

    rjsterry said:

    That's a weirdly reductivist view RC. Not to say pretty inaccurate.

    I (obviously) disagree. If I could be bothered to dig out some various essays I wrote on the topic I'd argue the toss, but I can't, so I won't.

    Something along the lines of the way it was done created a particularly unsolvable situation and a particularly unstable one, that was also clearly massively impacted by the holocaust etc etc.

    The solution created has all the hallmarks of a very limited "European" understanding of the local situation, without really understanding it on the ground.
    No argument that the guys dividing up the Ottoman Empire were almost literally drawing lines with crayons but that is not a problem isolated to Israel or even the Middle East.

    I have a particular family connection in that my grandfather served in what was then the British Mandate.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671
    edited October 2023
    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    That's a weirdly reductivist view RC. Not to say pretty inaccurate.

    I (obviously) disagree. If I could be bothered to dig out some various essays I wrote on the topic I'd argue the toss, but I can't, so I won't.

    Something along the lines of the way it was done created a particularly unsolvable situation and a particularly unstable one, that was also clearly massively impacted by the holocaust etc etc.

    The solution created has all the hallmarks of a very limited "European" understanding of the local situation, without really understanding it on the ground.
    No argument that the guys dividing up the Ottoman Empire were almost literally drawing lines with crayons but that is not a problem isolated to Israel or even the Middle East.

    I have a particular family connection in that my grandfather served in what was then the British Mandate.
    Just because there was local beef long before doesn't excuse the decision making or the role of the Brits in creating the current conflict. On the contrary, that was the context in which this current iteration of the problem was created.

    Let's be real, the essay question students usually get asked on the British Mandate is "why did it fail", so let's not pretend it was anything else.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,707
    edited October 2023
    I mean yes the British had a role as did other countries notably Germany but of course Jews were victimised before Hitler - Ukraine being the well known example (of that period around the modern zionist movement).


    We are where we are though. I've no skin in the game - I'm neither Jewish nor Palestinian - but I don't see how we can really criticise Hamas without also criticising Israel. I'm sure Hamas would have settled for killing Israelis by in air strikes using overwhelming military superiority or by starving them if their positions were reversed.

    All this we stand by Israel stuff only emboldens them.

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,301

    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    That's a weirdly reductivist view RC. Not to say pretty inaccurate.

    I (obviously) disagree. If I could be bothered to dig out some various essays I wrote on the topic I'd argue the toss, but I can't, so I won't.

    Something along the lines of the way it was done created a particularly unsolvable situation and a particularly unstable one, that was also clearly massively impacted by the holocaust etc etc.

    The solution created has all the hallmarks of a very limited "European" understanding of the local situation, without really understanding it on the ground.
    No argument that the guys dividing up the Ottoman Empire were almost literally drawing lines with crayons but that is not a problem isolated to Israel or even the Middle East.

    I have a particular family connection in that my grandfather served in what was then the British Mandate.
    Just because there was local beef long before doesn't excuse the decision making or the role of the Brits in creating the current conflict. On the contrary, that was the context in which this current iteration of the problem was created.

    Let's be real, the essay question students usually get asked on the British Mandate is "why did it fail", so let's not pretend it was anything else.
    The British Mandate predates the Holocaust by a decade or so and the establishment of Israel by more than 2. The Balfour Declaration was 1917 as I'm sure you know. I don't think it has anything to do with European guilt.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671
    It absolutely had a huge impact on the actual creation of the state and the West's attitude towards it, then and now, and if you look at the evidence, what was written and said during the creation of Israel, that is absolutely evident.

    I appreciate the argument has since taken on a newer meaning, to suggest somehow there is more illegitimacy of Jews there - I'm not arguing that, largely as I don't know enough about the claims to validate them or not - but European guilt is absolutely a critical factor in this, and I defy anyone who is across all the literature in and around the creation of the state and the fighting that occurred after it to say it was not a serious factor (ow can something as apocalyptic as the holocaust *not* be a big factor in all of this?)
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306

    It absolutely had a huge impact on the actual creation of the state and the West's attitude towards it, then and now, and if you look at the evidence, what was written and said during the creation of Israel, that is absolutely evident.

    I appreciate the argument has since taken on a newer meaning, to suggest somehow there is more illegitimacy of Jews there - I'm not arguing that, largely as I don't know enough about the claims to validate them or not - but European guilt is absolutely a critical factor in this, and I defy anyone who is across all the literature in and around the creation of the state and the fighting that occurred after it to say it was not a serious factor (ow can something as apocalyptic as the holocaust *not* be a big factor in all of this?)

    Are you arguing about holocaust guilt and ignoring everything that went on before it?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671

    It absolutely had a huge impact on the actual creation of the state and the West's attitude towards it, then and now, and if you look at the evidence, what was written and said during the creation of Israel, that is absolutely evident.

    I appreciate the argument has since taken on a newer meaning, to suggest somehow there is more illegitimacy of Jews there - I'm not arguing that, largely as I don't know enough about the claims to validate them or not - but European guilt is absolutely a critical factor in this, and I defy anyone who is across all the literature in and around the creation of the state and the fighting that occurred after it to say it was not a serious factor (ow can something as apocalyptic as the holocaust *not* be a big factor in all of this?)

    Are you arguing about holocaust guilt and ignoring everything that went on before it?
    European Holocaust guilt has a big big impact on the current iteration of the beef.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306

    It absolutely had a huge impact on the actual creation of the state and the West's attitude towards it, then and now, and if you look at the evidence, what was written and said during the creation of Israel, that is absolutely evident.

    I appreciate the argument has since taken on a newer meaning, to suggest somehow there is more illegitimacy of Jews there - I'm not arguing that, largely as I don't know enough about the claims to validate them or not - but European guilt is absolutely a critical factor in this, and I defy anyone who is across all the literature in and around the creation of the state and the fighting that occurred after it to say it was not a serious factor (ow can something as apocalyptic as the holocaust *not* be a big factor in all of this?)

    Are you arguing about holocaust guilt and ignoring everything that went on before it?
    European Holocaust guilt has a big big impact on the current iteration of the beef.
    Ok, so you are ignoring everything before the holocaust. Got it.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671

    It absolutely had a huge impact on the actual creation of the state and the West's attitude towards it, then and now, and if you look at the evidence, what was written and said during the creation of Israel, that is absolutely evident.

    I appreciate the argument has since taken on a newer meaning, to suggest somehow there is more illegitimacy of Jews there - I'm not arguing that, largely as I don't know enough about the claims to validate them or not - but European guilt is absolutely a critical factor in this, and I defy anyone who is across all the literature in and around the creation of the state and the fighting that occurred after it to say it was not a serious factor (ow can something as apocalyptic as the holocaust *not* be a big factor in all of this?)

    Are you arguing about holocaust guilt and ignoring everything that went on before it?
    European Holocaust guilt has a big big impact on the current iteration of the beef.
    Ok, so you are ignoring everything before the holocaust. Got it.
    *sigh*.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,301

    It absolutely had a huge impact on the actual creation of the state and the West's attitude towards it, then and now, and if you look at the evidence, what was written and said during the creation of Israel, that is absolutely evident.

    I appreciate the argument has since taken on a newer meaning, to suggest somehow there is more illegitimacy of Jews there - I'm not arguing that, largely as I don't know enough about the claims to validate them or not - but European guilt is absolutely a critical factor in this, and I defy anyone who is across all the literature in and around the creation of the state and the fighting that occurred after it to say it was not a serious factor (ow can something as apocalyptic as the holocaust *not* be a big factor in all of this?)

    I think once you have the reneging on promises of Arab independence with Sykes-Picot and shortly after the Balfour Declaration, then something like Israel and a conflict between that and the Arab population is pretty inevitable regardless of what else is going on in Europe. Anyway, we're veering off.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306

    It absolutely had a huge impact on the actual creation of the state and the West's attitude towards it, then and now, and if you look at the evidence, what was written and said during the creation of Israel, that is absolutely evident.

    I appreciate the argument has since taken on a newer meaning, to suggest somehow there is more illegitimacy of Jews there - I'm not arguing that, largely as I don't know enough about the claims to validate them or not - but European guilt is absolutely a critical factor in this, and I defy anyone who is across all the literature in and around the creation of the state and the fighting that occurred after it to say it was not a serious factor (ow can something as apocalyptic as the holocaust *not* be a big factor in all of this?)

    Are you arguing about holocaust guilt and ignoring everything that went on before it?
    European Holocaust guilt has a big big impact on the current iteration of the beef.
    Ok, so you are ignoring everything before the holocaust. Got it.
    *sigh*.
    I did sigh, yes.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 39,893
    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    That's a weirdly reductivist view RC. Not to say pretty inaccurate.

    I (obviously) disagree. If I could be bothered to dig out some various essays I wrote on the topic I'd argue the toss, but I can't, so I won't.

    Something along the lines of the way it was done created a particularly unsolvable situation and a particularly unstable one, that was also clearly massively impacted by the holocaust etc etc.

    The solution created has all the hallmarks of a very limited "European" understanding of the local situation, without really understanding it on the ground.
    No argument that the guys dividing up the Ottoman Empire were almost literally drawing lines with crayons but that is not a problem isolated to Israel or even the Middle East.

    I have a particular family connection in that my grandfather served in what was then the British Mandate.
    Just because there was local beef long before doesn't excuse the decision making or the role of the Brits in creating the current conflict. On the contrary, that was the context in which this current iteration of the problem was created.

    Let's be real, the essay question students usually get asked on the British Mandate is "why did it fail", so let's not pretend it was anything else.
    The British Mandate predates the Holocaust by a decade or so and the establishment of Israel by more than 2. The Balfour Declaration was 1917 as I'm sure you know. I don't think it has anything to do with European guilt.
    Rick loves a bit of guilt though.
  • photonic69
    photonic69 Posts: 2,365
    Pross said:

    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    That's a weirdly reductivist view RC. Not to say pretty inaccurate.

    I (obviously) disagree. If I could be bothered to dig out some various essays I wrote on the topic I'd argue the toss, but I can't, so I won't.

    Something along the lines of the way it was done created a particularly unsolvable situation and a particularly unstable one, that was also clearly massively impacted by the holocaust etc etc.

    The solution created has all the hallmarks of a very limited "European" understanding of the local situation, without really understanding it on the ground.
    No argument that the guys dividing up the Ottoman Empire were almost literally drawing lines with crayons but that is not a problem isolated to Israel or even the Middle East.

    I have a particular family connection in that my grandfather served in what was then the British Mandate.
    Just because there was local beef long before doesn't excuse the decision making or the role of the Brits in creating the current conflict. On the contrary, that was the context in which this current iteration of the problem was created.

    Let's be real, the essay question students usually get asked on the British Mandate is "why did it fail", so let's not pretend it was anything else.
    The British Mandate predates the Holocaust by a decade or so and the establishment of Israel by more than 2. The Balfour Declaration was 1917 as I'm sure you know. I don't think it has anything to do with European guilt.
    Rick loves a bit of guilt though.
    Is he Catholic?


    Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,277
    Is it possible to be guilty of not having any guilt?
    A conundrum.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,707
    Jewish population of Palestine at the Balfour Declaration was just over 10%

    I think you can put it (the Balfour Declaration and that promise being kept) down to several things.
    - personal ties to influential Jews. The declaration was a letter to a Rothschild.
    - how upper class Brits viewed Palestinians - probably not as equals.
    - influence of Christian zionism on politicians
    - British elite education meaning they saw the region more in terms of biblical times than modern day.

    Obviously though Hitler gave a huge push to the project in terms of sympathy and sheer numbers - even given that Jews had been left with a substantial administrative and military advantage by the departing Brits if they'd still only been 10% of the population they weren't winning.

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Did someone get lucky with his timing:





  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 39,893
    Not sure why the UK Government is getting involved and sending ships to Israel. The Israeli’s have every right to defend themselves and take action against Hamas but it feels like they are going beyond that into taking revenge on Palestinians. Should we be supporting that? I doubt the Israeli military even need any support in any case. The argument that it is for our security seem far fetched and probably puts us at increased risk of terrorist attack.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671
    Pross said:

    Not sure why the UK Government is getting involved and sending ships to Israel. The Israeli’s have every right to defend themselves and take action against Hamas but it feels like they are going beyond that into taking revenge on Palestinians. Should we be supporting that? I doubt the Israeli military even need any support in any case. The argument that it is for our security seem far fetched and probably puts us at increased risk of terrorist attack.

    Hmm I wonder 🤨
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,341
    Anyone listening to Grant Schnapps on R4? Supporting Israel, but not saying whether he supports what they are now doing and arguing that no one could possibly be confused by this position.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,341
    He has now had a dig at BBC coverage and suggested a link to the need for Jewish schools in the UK needing to close, and is suggesting that the BBC should be required to adhere to UK government terminology.

    Is it just me or is that attitude towards press freedom worrying?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671
    edited October 2023

    He has now had a dig at BBC coverage and suggested a link to the need for Jewish schools in the UK needing to close, and is suggesting that the BBC should be required to adhere to UK government terminology.

    Is it just me or is that attitude towards press freedom worrying?

    Yes they don’t understand that the BBC is trusted because before politicians had the self control to not tell the state broadcaster how to report



    Cynic is me believes they’re doing it to lay the groundwork that the state is captured by the left for the election
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,341
    Trust the Tories to use a humanitarian crisis as an opportunity to attack the BBC.

    What are the odds that the BBC charter and license fee will be mentioned by the end of the day?
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,134
    I tell you what, it makes you think about the BBC charter and license fee.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306

    I tell you what, it makes you think about the BBC charter and license fee.

    Just how good they are?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671
    Rulez of any news story that goes on for more than 3 days is that it becomes in some way about the BBC
  • Did someone get lucky with his timing:





    I think the truth is much more mundane: Folk in their 90s convicted of white collar crime where they plead guilty don't often (never?) get sent to chokie. For someone of that age to get sent down there has to have been some pretty horrific crime involved e.g. long-term child abuse, no guilty plea and no sign of remorse.