Today's discussion about the news

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

I think one of things that the world should have learnt from the Northern Ireland peace process is that negotiating with terrorists/freedom fighters is pretty much the only solution. Remember the IRA bombed a shopping centre (admittedly not as bad as what Hamas have just done), but everyone still managed to hold their noses and find some sort of deal.

It wasn't just a unilateral move from the UK government. The IRA leadership needed to be open to some form of reconciliation as well. Clearly not all of them were as evidenced by the various splinter groups and continuing security threats.

Hamas's original charter is violently anti-Semitic and claims that the only way that the conflict can be resolved is through the complete removal of Israel and establishment of an Islamic state over the whole of the former Palestinian territory. In 2017 they revised their charter to remove the call for Israel's destruction, but I think some Israeli mistrust of that change is at least understandable.

This is a regularly trotted out argument which is used to avoid negotiation. It ignores that a sizeable majority of Israel does not believe in the right for any Palestinian state and that this has been backed up by actions over the last 70 years. There is therefore reason for mistrust on both sides. Neither is an excuse not to negotiate.

Also, I did not state it was a unilateral move by the UK. I said "everyone still managed to hold their noses"

I think until the other day a lot of people had taken that 2017 revision as an indication of a change of direction. Obviously not everyone and not in the more hardline parts of Israeli government. But as the only group with significant public support, who else was anyone going to deal with?
It seems pretty clear now that that change has been reversed.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

I think one of things that the world should have learnt from the Northern Ireland peace process is that negotiating with terrorists/freedom fighters is pretty much the only solution. Remember the IRA bombed a shopping centre (admittedly not as bad as what Hamas have just done), but everyone still managed to hold their noses and find some sort of deal.

It wasn't just a unilateral move from the UK government. The IRA leadership needed to be open to some form of reconciliation as well. Clearly not all of them were as evidenced by the various splinter groups and continuing security threats.

Hamas's original charter is violently anti-Semitic and claims that the only way that the conflict can be resolved is through the complete removal of Israel and establishment of an Islamic state over the whole of the former Palestinian territory. In 2017 they revised their charter to remove the call for Israel's destruction, but I think some Israeli mistrust of that change is at least understandable.

This is a regularly trotted out argument which is used to avoid negotiation. It ignores that a sizeable majority of Israel does not believe in the right for any Palestinian state and that this has been backed up by actions over the last 70 years. There is therefore reason for mistrust on both sides. Neither is an excuse not to negotiate.

Also, I did not state it was a unilateral move by the UK. I said "everyone still managed to hold their noses"

I think until the other day a lot of people had taken that 2017 revision as an indication of a change of direction. Obviously not everyone and not in the more hardline parts of Israeli government. But as the only group with significant public support, who else was anyone going to deal with?
It seems pretty clear now that that change has been reversed.

And what did they do with this perceived change of direction? They did not engage in negotiations or stop turfing people out of their homes. It is a cycle of violence which only ends in negotiations (or genocide).

thegreatdivide

The beheading of children / babies story has quietly dropped out of the news…because it looks like it was a fabrication.

PMark

thegreatdivide said:

The beheading of children / babies story has quietly dropped out of the news…because it looks like it was a fabrication.

While I am not sure it is wise to keep reporting stuff like that because it can just lead to mass hatred of a group of people (even though not everyone in that group is doing this), but I have heard from Jewish people who have family over there and that level of brutality seems quite real.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

I think one of things that the world should have learnt from the Northern Ireland peace process is that negotiating with terrorists/freedom fighters is pretty much the only solution. Remember the IRA bombed a shopping centre (admittedly not as bad as what Hamas have just done), but everyone still managed to hold their noses and find some sort of deal.

It wasn't just a unilateral move from the UK government. The IRA leadership needed to be open to some form of reconciliation as well. Clearly not all of them were as evidenced by the various splinter groups and continuing security threats.

Hamas's original charter is violently anti-Semitic and claims that the only way that the conflict can be resolved is through the complete removal of Israel and establishment of an Islamic state over the whole of the former Palestinian territory. In 2017 they revised their charter to remove the call for Israel's destruction, but I think some Israeli mistrust of that change is at least understandable.

This is a regularly trotted out argument which is used to avoid negotiation. It ignores that a sizeable majority of Israel does not believe in the right for any Palestinian state and that this has been backed up by actions over the last 70 years. There is therefore reason for mistrust on both sides. Neither is an excuse not to negotiate.

Also, I did not state it was a unilateral move by the UK. I said "everyone still managed to hold their noses"

I think until the other day a lot of people had taken that 2017 revision as an indication of a change of direction. Obviously not everyone and not in the more hardline parts of Israeli government. But as the only group with significant public support, who else was anyone going to deal with?
It seems pretty clear now that that change has been reversed.

And what did they do with this perceived change of direction? They did not engage in negotiations or stop turfing people out of their homes. It is a cycle of violence which only ends in negotiations (or genocide).

Who is they in that sentence?. If you mean Netanyahu and the assorted hard right he's happy to team up with, then sure. Nobody else is in a position to negotiate, though.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

I think one of things that the world should have learnt from the Northern Ireland peace process is that negotiating with terrorists/freedom fighters is pretty much the only solution. Remember the IRA bombed a shopping centre (admittedly not as bad as what Hamas have just done), but everyone still managed to hold their noses and find some sort of deal.

It wasn't just a unilateral move from the UK government. The IRA leadership needed to be open to some form of reconciliation as well. Clearly not all of them were as evidenced by the various splinter groups and continuing security threats.

Hamas's original charter is violently anti-Semitic and claims that the only way that the conflict can be resolved is through the complete removal of Israel and establishment of an Islamic state over the whole of the former Palestinian territory. In 2017 they revised their charter to remove the call for Israel's destruction, but I think some Israeli mistrust of that change is at least understandable.

This is a regularly trotted out argument which is used to avoid negotiation. It ignores that a sizeable majority of Israel does not believe in the right for any Palestinian state and that this has been backed up by actions over the last 70 years. There is therefore reason for mistrust on both sides. Neither is an excuse not to negotiate.

Also, I did not state it was a unilateral move by the UK. I said "everyone still managed to hold their noses"

I think until the other day a lot of people had taken that 2017 revision as an indication of a change of direction. Obviously not everyone and not in the more hardline parts of Israeli government. But as the only group with significant public support, who else was anyone going to deal with?
It seems pretty clear now that that change has been reversed.

And what did they do with this perceived change of direction? They did not engage in negotiations or stop turfing people out of their homes. It is a cycle of violence which only ends in negotiations (or genocide).

Who is they in that sentence?. If you mean Netanyahu and the assorted hard right he's happy to team up with, then sure. Nobody else is in a position to negotiate, though.

They is the government elected by the people of Israel. It hasn't always been Netanyahu.

rjsterry

Bar a few months he has been PM since 2009.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

Bar a few months he has been PM since 2009.

1.5 years, but yes it has mostly been him.

rjsterry

Some reports that a majority of Israelis blame Netanyahu for the security failure, so maybe he is really done for this time.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

Some reports that a majority of Israelis blame Netanyahu for the security failure, so maybe he is really done for this time.

Security failure not a negotiation failure. So he will be replaced by someone even more hardline.

pblakeney

rjsterry said:

Some reports that a majority of Israelis blame Netanyahu for the security failure, so maybe he is really done for this time.

Reports that Egypt warned him won't be helping his job security.

bikes_and_dogs

As a young Glaswegian growing up with a sectarian undercurrent - my English mother once said "You don't have to hate the other side to prove support of your own".
50 years later, I still consider them to be wise words.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

Some reports that a majority of Israelis blame Netanyahu for the security failure, so maybe he is really done for this time.

Security failure not a negotiation failure. So he will be replaced by someone even more hardline.

There's not been any significant negotiation to fail. Israel's reaction is so predictable that one is forced to conclude that that was part of the plan.

rjsterry

Double post.

ddraver

briantrumpet

Wait, what, erm, WTF?

rick_chasey

thegreatdivide said:

The beheading of children / babies story has quietly dropped out of the news…because it looks like it was a fabrication.

It’s neither been “quietly dropped” nor is it a fabrication.

https://Twitter.com/osinttechnical/status/1712224037819105500?s=46&t=Q7O5dnx-0MXQv9qE3vz1vg

Can chose to disbelieve Biden if you want, he’s not neutral in this, but it’s been reported on al the major respectable news outlets too.

pblakeney

My fear is that Israel will go for revenge and be little better.
IMO nothing in the Middle East is ever black and white.

wallace_and_gromit

pblakeney said:

IMO nothing in the Middle East is ever black and white.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say there is no ambiguity over whether picking a fight with the Israelis is a good or bad idea. It's a very bad idea.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

thegreatdivide said:

The beheading of children / babies story has quietly dropped out of the news…because it looks like it was a fabrication.

It’s neither been “quietly dropped” nor is it a fabrication.

https://Twitter.com/osinttechnical/status/1712224037819105500?s=46&t=Q7O5dnx-0MXQv9qE3vz1vg

Can chose to disbelieve Biden if you want, he’s not neutral in this, but it’s been reported on al the major respectable news outlets too.

A White House spokesperson later told Washington Post that the US officials and Biden have not seen pictures or confirmed such reports independently. Biden reportedly based his comments about the alleged atrocities on the claims from Netanyahu's spokesman and media reports from Israel, according to the White House.

rick_chasey

You think it's fabricated? BBC is reporting it as fact. Economist too. FT too.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

You think it's fabricated? BBC is reporting it as fact. Economist too. FT too.

I don't know, but all the reports are from one Israeli journalist who is close to Netanyahu. IDF did not confirm this had happened when asked. I'm not sure the method of death makes that much difference. No one is disputing that there was massacre.

thegreatdivide

NOBODY has confirmed it. It all stems from a TV journalist from the Israeli i24 new channel who claimed to have seen babies with their heads chopped off and it went viral. Even the IDF haven't confirmed it.

thegreatdivide

You're flapping again Rick. Next it'll be imminent nuclear holocaust like the Ukraine thread.

rick_chasey

Am I? I don't feel especially strongly about the whole thing beyond the fact that it's a regular reminder that Europeans projecting their own problems on the rest of the world rarely ends well.

I mean, this is basically a conflict created out of European guilt, but anyway.

Pross

rick_chasey said:

Am I? I don't feel especially strongly about the whole thing beyond the fact that it's a regular reminder that Europeans projecting their own problems on the rest of the world rarely ends well.

I mean, this is basically a conflict created out of European guilt, but anyway.

I mean, it is a regular issue in the Old Testament but if you want to frame it that way OK.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

Am I? I don't feel especially strongly about the whole thing beyond the fact that it's a regular reminder that Europeans projecting their own problems on the rest of the world rarely ends well.

I mean, this is basically a conflict created out of European guilt, but anyway.

Zionism initially emerged in Central and Eastern Europe as a national revival movement in the late 19th century, both in reaction to newer waves of antisemitism and as a response to Haskalah, or Jewish Enlightenment

rjsterry

That's a weirdly reductivist view RC. Not to say pretty inaccurate.

photonic69

In other news..

This looks like the dregs of the bag of charcoal I finished in August, not a sample of extraterrestrial life building blocks.

Pross

photonic69 said:

In other news..

This looks like the dregs of the bag of charcoal I finished in August, not a sample of extraterrestrial life building blocks.

I mentioned that in the intriguing thread yesterday. It looks like someone just emptied the dregs of their BBQ into the cyclinder. The one guy trying to sound excited that it contains high levels of carbon 'like they had hoped' while his face looked really disappointed was amusing.