Today's discussion about the news

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671

    A century before….

    1944

    I don't count taking over and occupying a region mostly made up of your country's nationals as quite the same level of achievement. That's why I assumed you were talking about the time before that.
    They took Crimea pretty straightforwardly in 2014.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306

    A century before….

    1944

    I don't count taking over and occupying a region mostly made up of your country's nationals as quite the same level of achievement. That's why I assumed you were talking about the time before that.
    They took Crimea pretty straightforwardly in 2014.
    You never read.
  • My news story of the day. Sometimes a bit of lighthearted relief to counterpoint all the disasters is required!

    https://theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/10/50-cent-sponsors-cardiff-girls-under-14-football-team
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306
    The widely-held conventional wisdom in both Washington and Jerusalem was that Hamas was strongly ideological but inevitably pragmatic, and cared about retaining its infrastructure and domain in Gaza more than it cared about killing Jews


    This works the same in reverse i.e. Hamas thought Israel might be pragmatic and stop all the bad stuff (settlements, killing, detentions, abuse etc) but they didn't so they had to do bad stuff as well.

    In other words, the tweet is designed to justify mass slaughter of Palestinians.
  • Stupid question but does Israeli automatically mean Jew? I feel the two are used interchangeably but to me, nationality =/= religion and religion =/= race.

    Also - there was talk that Iran (who funds Hamas) may have been encouraged by Russia to pull this stunt. A very large shipment of arms which was destined for Ukraine from Israel was pulled. Ukraine also no longer in the news.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,707
    Seen plenty of pro Israeli's celebrate the forthcoming slaughter of people in Gaza.

    We have to look past acts of barbarism and at the root causes of this. No fair minded person could absolve Israel of their responsibility in deaths arising from this conflict.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Tashman
    Tashman Posts: 3,392
    It's all just a shitshow just like all border disputes.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671


    In other words, the tweet is designed to justify mass slaughter of Palestinians.

    No it absolutely isn't.

    Israel and the US would agree that this is a gigantic intelligence mistake, and that this outbreak is the failure of their strategy up to this point.

    No-one objective in this is justifying the head chopping of children or bombing the homes of people.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306


    In other words, the tweet is designed to justify mass slaughter of Palestinians.

    No it absolutely isn't.

    Israel and the US would agree that this is a gigantic intelligence mistake, and that this outbreak is the failure of their strategy up to this point.

    No-one objective in this is justifying the head chopping of children or bombing the homes of people.
    Yes, there has been an intelligence failure, but that is not because they have misunderstood Hamas.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671
    Here is an Israeli general saying the same thing:
    https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2023/10/10/the-crisis-shows-the-failure-of-israeli-policy-towards-palestinians-says-shlomo-brom


    The crisis shows the failure of Israeli policy towards Palestinians, says Shlomo Brom
    The former military strategist argues that a divide-and-conquer strategy can never bring peace
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306

    Stupid question but does Israeli automatically mean Jew? I feel the two are used interchangeably but to me, nationality =/= religion and religion =/= race.

    Also - there was talk that Iran (who funds Hamas) may have been encouraged by Russia to pull this stunt. A very large shipment of arms which was destined for Ukraine from Israel was pulled. Ukraine also no longer in the news.

    There are Arab Israelis who suffer from discrimination. See also the Nation-State Bill.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306

    Here is an Israeli general saying the same thing:
    https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2023/10/10/the-crisis-shows-the-failure-of-israeli-policy-towards-palestinians-says-shlomo-brom


    The crisis shows the failure of Israeli policy towards Palestinians, says Shlomo Brom
    The former military strategist argues that a divide-and-conquer strategy can never bring peace
    That's an Israeli general saying something sensible, but he will know that very few people within Israel will agree.

    It's different from your earlier tweet which suggests Hamas value ideology and killing above all else. It's saying that they can't be negotiated with and don't value the nice infrastructure that Israel has generously let them build.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671
    edited October 2023

    Here is an Israeli general saying the same thing:
    https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2023/10/10/the-crisis-shows-the-failure-of-israeli-policy-towards-palestinians-says-shlomo-brom


    The crisis shows the failure of Israeli policy towards Palestinians, says Shlomo Brom
    The former military strategist argues that a divide-and-conquer strategy can never bring peace
    That's an Israeli general saying something sensible, but he will know that very few people within Israel will agree.

    It's different from your earlier tweet which suggests Hamas value ideology and killing above all else. It's saying that they can't be negotiated with and don't value the nice infrastructure that Israel has generously let them build.

    If you are Hamas and you go around killing hundreds or thousands of civilian Israelis in very brutal fashion, including literally chopping the heads off babies, you are not really looking after the interests of the people in Gaza, are you?

    In the same way if I chose a bank robbing career, I wouldn't really be looking after the interests of my family.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306

    Here is an Israeli general saying the same thing:
    https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2023/10/10/the-crisis-shows-the-failure-of-israeli-policy-towards-palestinians-says-shlomo-brom


    The crisis shows the failure of Israeli policy towards Palestinians, says Shlomo Brom
    The former military strategist argues that a divide-and-conquer strategy can never bring peace
    That's an Israeli general saying something sensible, but he will know that very few people within Israel will agree.

    It's different from your earlier tweet which suggests Hamas value ideology and killing above all else. It's saying that they can't be negotiated with and don't value the nice infrastructure that Israel has generously let them build.

    If you are Hamas and you go around killing hundreds or thousands of civilian Israelis in very brutal fashion, including literally chopping the heads off babies, you are not really looking after the interests of the people in Gaza, are you?

    In the same way if I chose a bank robbing career, I wouldn't really be looking after the interests of my family.
    That's not what your economist article is saying as it is looking at it from an Israeli point of view. In that sense, it is quite interesting, but unfortunately it is a minority view.

    Your view is very mainstream and ends with the need to massacre "them" all.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306
    In other news Luton airport is on fire.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,671



    Your view is very mainstream and ends with the need to massacre "them" all.

    It really isn't and I think if you're accusing me of something that bad you ought to back it up with evidence and logic a bit more.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306



    Your view is very mainstream and ends with the need to massacre "them" all.

    It really isn't and I think if you're accusing me of something that bad you ought to back it up with evidence and logic a bit more.
    You have posted an article, which I'm not sure you read, which essentially argues that Israel needs to, and should have, negotiated with Hamas. You have also posted a tweet which seems to imply that Hamas are not pragmatic and only care "about killing Jews". If there is a belief that it is impossible to negotiate with Hamas (mainstream view in Israel), then this inevitably leads to the only option being to kill them (or maintaining the status quo which also seems to have failed).

    I am not saying that you want a massacre, but that is where many people who hold your view seem to end up. Israel is in the process of committing war crimes, again, so people need to justify this.

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306
    I think one of things that the world should have learnt from the Northern Ireland peace process is that negotiating with terrorists/freedom fighters is pretty much the only solution. Remember the IRA bombed a shopping centre (admittedly not as bad as what Hamas have just done), but everyone still managed to hold their noses and find some sort of deal.
  • Seen plenty of pro Israeli's celebrate the forthcoming slaughter of people in Gaza.

    We have to look past acts of barbarism and at the root causes of this. No fair minded person could absolve Israel of their responsibility in deaths arising from this conflict.

    where on earth do you live?
  • I think one of things that the world should have learnt from the Northern Ireland peace process is that negotiating with terrorists/freedom fighters is pretty much the only solution. Remember the IRA bombed a shopping centre (admittedly not as bad as what Hamas have just done), but everyone still managed to hold their noses and find some sort of deal.

    Absolutely.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,341

    Here is an Israeli general saying the same thing:
    https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2023/10/10/the-crisis-shows-the-failure-of-israeli-policy-towards-palestinians-says-shlomo-brom


    The crisis shows the failure of Israeli policy towards Palestinians, says Shlomo Brom
    The former military strategist argues that a divide-and-conquer strategy can never bring peace
    That's an Israeli general saying something sensible, but he will know that very few people within Israel will agree.

    It's different from your earlier tweet which suggests Hamas value ideology and killing above all else. It's saying that they can't be negotiated with and don't value the nice infrastructure that Israel has generously let them build.

    If you are Hamas and you go around killing hundreds or thousands of civilian Israelis in very brutal fashion, including literally chopping the heads off babies, you are not really looking after the interests of the people in Gaza, are you?

    In the same way if I chose a bank robbing career, I wouldn't really be looking after the interests of my family.
    This is a conflict that has complications beyond what most of us understand. The vast majority of people involved are collateral.

    Imo we should all exercise some moderation in what we say that we think we know.
  • Watching ‘The troubles’ on BBC iPlayer is a must. Shows the whole futility of it all and horrors committed.
  • Here is an Israeli general saying the same thing:
    https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2023/10/10/the-crisis-shows-the-failure-of-israeli-policy-towards-palestinians-says-shlomo-brom


    The crisis shows the failure of Israeli policy towards Palestinians, says Shlomo Brom
    The former military strategist argues that a divide-and-conquer strategy can never bring peace
    That's an Israeli general saying something sensible, but he will know that very few people within Israel will agree.

    It's different from your earlier tweet which suggests Hamas value ideology and killing above all else. It's saying that they can't be negotiated with and don't value the nice infrastructure that Israel has generously let them build.

    If you are Hamas and you go around killing hundreds or thousands of civilian Israelis in very brutal fashion, including literally chopping the heads off babies, you are not really looking after the interests of the people in Gaza, are you?

    In the same way if I chose a bank robbing career, I wouldn't really be looking after the interests of my family.
    This is a conflict that has complications beyond what most of us understand. The vast majority of people involved are collateral.

    Imo we should all exercise some moderation in what we say that we think we know.
    Can’t disagree tbh
  • I think one of things that the world should have learnt from the Northern Ireland peace process is that negotiating with terrorists/freedom fighters is pretty much the only solution. Remember the IRA bombed a shopping centre (admittedly not as bad as what Hamas have just done), but everyone still managed to hold their noses and find some sort of deal.

    surely the problem in Israel/Palestine is that nobody can even agree what that deal would look like
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306
    edited October 2023

    I think one of things that the world should have learnt from the Northern Ireland peace process is that negotiating with terrorists/freedom fighters is pretty much the only solution. Remember the IRA bombed a shopping centre (admittedly not as bad as what Hamas have just done), but everyone still managed to hold their noses and find some sort of deal.

    surely the problem in Israel/Palestine is that nobody can even agree what that deal would look like
    It's certainly true that there are issues that both sides cannot agree on e.g. right of return of refugees, East Jerusalem, security etc. I think that just means it needs other countries to get involved.

    Also, if you read the economist article it suggests the only two options are two states or one state with equal rights. The latter would not work given the size of the populations involved.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 39,893
    They seemed to be doing OK 30 years ago until the hardliners assissinated Rabin. It feels like it has been a downward spiral since then with both sides hardening their views. I suspect there will be a lot of right wingers in Israel who are happy to see this escalation to a full-on war.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,301

    I think one of things that the world should have learnt from the Northern Ireland peace process is that negotiating with terrorists/freedom fighters is pretty much the only solution. Remember the IRA bombed a shopping centre (admittedly not as bad as what Hamas have just done), but everyone still managed to hold their noses and find some sort of deal.

    It wasn't just a unilateral move from the UK government. The IRA leadership needed to be open to some form of reconciliation as well. Clearly not all of them were as evidenced by the various splinter groups and continuing security threats.

    Hamas's original charter is violently anti-Semitic and claims that the only way that the conflict can be resolved is through the complete removal of Israel and establishment of an Islamic state over the whole of the former Palestinian territory. In 2017 they revised their charter to remove the call for Israel's destruction, but I think some Israeli mistrust of that change is at least understandable.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,352
    Pross said:

    I suspect there will be a lot of right wingers in Israel who are happy to see this escalation to a full-on war.

    With reference to FA post above, I would not profess to "know" much about this situation. However, I am of the opinion that Israel will try to use this awful attack by Hamas as justification to finally completely obliterate anything and anyone on "the other side" once and for all. Hope I'm wrong.
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,306
    rjsterry said:

    I think one of things that the world should have learnt from the Northern Ireland peace process is that negotiating with terrorists/freedom fighters is pretty much the only solution. Remember the IRA bombed a shopping centre (admittedly not as bad as what Hamas have just done), but everyone still managed to hold their noses and find some sort of deal.

    It wasn't just a unilateral move from the UK government. The IRA leadership needed to be open to some form of reconciliation as well. Clearly not all of them were as evidenced by the various splinter groups and continuing security threats.

    Hamas's original charter is violently anti-Semitic and claims that the only way that the conflict can be resolved is through the complete removal of Israel and establishment of an Islamic state over the whole of the former Palestinian territory. In 2017 they revised their charter to remove the call for Israel's destruction, but I think some Israeli mistrust of that change is at least understandable.
    This is a regularly trotted out argument which is used to avoid negotiation. It ignores that a sizeable majority of Israel does not believe in the right for any Palestinian state and that this has been backed up by actions over the last 70 years. There is therefore reason for mistrust on both sides. Neither is an excuse not to negotiate.

    Also, I did not state it was a unilateral move by the UK. I said "everyone still managed to hold their noses"