Today's discussion about the news
Comments
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It is quite incredible. And 90%+ is through the visa system.surrey_commuter said:Have I missed the discussion about net immigration hitting 700,000?
Do we know if this a robust number?
Where have they all gone?
Is it pent up demand or will it continue?
Are they coming for a few years, so emigration will catch up?
If the Govt does not know the answers then how can they plan accordingly?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
It is quite incredible. And 90%+ is through the visa system.surrey_commuter said:Have I missed the discussion about net immigration hitting 700,000?
Do we know if this a robust number?
Where have they all gone?
Is it pent up demand or will it continue?
Are they coming for a few years, so emigration will catch up?
If the Govt does not know the answers then how can they plan accordingly?
Is it the EU's fault? If not, whose?? 🤔0 -
One can only presume that as visas were applied for and approved that this is a deliberate policy.briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
It is quite incredible. And 90%+ is through the visa system.surrey_commuter said:Have I missed the discussion about net immigration hitting 700,000?
Do we know if this a robust number?
Where have they all gone?
Is it pent up demand or will it continue?
Are they coming for a few years, so emigration will catch up?
If the Govt does not know the answers then how can they plan accordingly?
Is it the EU's fault? If not, whose?? 🤔1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
but the boats!!!- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Step 1 - Who is in control of our borders?briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
It is quite incredible. And 90%+ is through the visa system.surrey_commuter said:Have I missed the discussion about net immigration hitting 700,000?
Do we know if this a robust number?
Where have they all gone?
Is it pent up demand or will it continue?
Are they coming for a few years, so emigration will catch up?
If the Govt does not know the answers then how can they plan accordingly?
Is it the EU's fault? If not, whose?? 🤔The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
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You could argue the small boat hand wringers are upholding traditional British values 🤔briantrumpet said:- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Actually, at least the NF called these folk coming in on boats 'people', where today's 'Tories' just call them (dehumanised) 'illegal immigrants' (a lie in itself).
A propos the National Front (from Wikipedia):In the 1970s the NF claimed that the teaching profession was full of "communists", and stated that under an NF government all teachers deemed unsuitable would be fired. That decade, it stressed that education should be suited to the varying abilities of students although did not outright condemn comprehensive schooling. It called for greater emphasis on examinations and sporting competitions, with a rejection of "slapdash Leftwing-inspired teaching fads". It stated that it would emphasise the teaching of British history to encourage patriotism while expanding science and technology in the curriculum at the expense of the social sciences.]
The Front exalted self-sufficiency, asserting that the individual should be willing to serve the state and that citizens' rights should be subordinate to their duties. During the 1970s, the Front criticised the UK's welfare state, stating that it wanted to end the perception of the UK as a "loafer's paradise". From its early years the NF promoted a tough stance on law and order, calling for harsher criminal sentencing, tougher prisons, and the reintroduction of both capital punishment, and national service. Emphasising self-responsibility, it rejected the idea that an individual's misdeeds should be attributed to their societal background.[0 -
Dorset_Boy said:
Given the tunnels run under the city, blowing them up may be an issue for any above ground structures, but might there be the option to flood the tunnels?
Breaking: IDF reads Cakestop.
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So the UK is a bit of an outlier in Europe on this, and I’d be wary of framing the Dutch election in UK terms. English speaking world shares trends with each other but not with the continent.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
23% of the vote. Basically a really really really anti immigration party, but really just a straight up Islamophobic party.rick_chasey said:Wilder’s party PVV biggest in Holland today. Awful
How does this strike you, @rick_chasey ? I know very little (aka 'nothing') about Dutch politics, but this seems vaguely balanced.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/23/the-guardian-view-on-the-dutch-election-europe-must-learn-from-a-lurch-to-the-far-right
It also carries a warning for Starmer, I think:How, then, did the Netherlands reach the point at which a former political pariah finds himself on the threshold of formal power? Mainstream parties on the right, including the VVD, appear to have played into Mr Wilders’ hands by endorsing and attempting to co-opt his anti-migrant agenda. One in four voters ended up choosing the PVV’s full-fat version.
That's to say, if the centre-left tries to placate the far right, at the same time it both semi-legitimises it and risks losing voters to the full-fat version. It's a very wobbly tightrope to stay on for Labour, as they have to woo back those who voted for Brexit because of their belief that foreigners were the cause of UK's ills, but knowing that the UK still needs immigration to stay solvent.
For example, Wilders got a majority of votes for the 18-35 vote.
It’s similar in Germany where the AfD is most popular with young people (and Osties, obviously).
Same in France too - it’s the young who voted Le Pen and it’s the older generation who voted liberal centrist.
I have my own theory.
1) Netherlands has had *a lot* of immigration over the years, and a lot of it has come from very poor and rural areas in Muslim countries. The values they brought with them are really very different to the values Dutch hold dear.
2) The issues I have been whining about on here, lack of affordable housing, challenging environments for young families, a lack of sufficient high value jobs to satisfy the level of education, applies all over Western Europe, and the lack of movement on these issues has radicalised a lot of young people. A lot of the issues above can be pinned on immigrants quite easy; “too full”, “houses taken up by immigrants”, “cheap immigrant labour undercutting wages” etc.
The issues the young face are never addressed by the politicians, so they are getting increasingly radicalised.0 -
I assume they decided there’s no safe way of releasing any hostages being held in the tunnels? Presumably one of the main points in Hamas taking these hostages in the first place was to prevent Israel taking those sorts of measures.briantrumpet said:Dorset_Boy said:Given the tunnels run under the city, blowing them up may be an issue for any above ground structures, but might there be the option to flood the tunnels?
Breaking: IDF reads Cakestop.0 -
May sound obvious but given the military importance of the tunnels to HAMAS and the lack of intel the IDF have on them, the idea that Hamas would give witnesses back with tunnel intel to the IDF sounds mad.Pross said:
I assume they decided there’s no safe way of releasing any hostages being held in the tunnels? Presumably one of the main points in Hamas taking these hostages in the first place was to prevent Israel taking those sorts of measures.briantrumpet said:Dorset_Boy said:Given the tunnels run under the city, blowing them up may be an issue for any above ground structures, but might there be the option to flood the tunnels?
Breaking: IDF reads Cakestop.
As ever, the problem with hostage taking is the longer hostages are held, the more the rational logic dictates they can't survive. Hostage takers have more time to be loose lipped, the hostages more time to work out who they are and what they're doing, etc.0 -
Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.0
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Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
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rick_chasey said:
Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
And, as we know from Brexit, trying to sell the status quo ("It's a bit shït, but the alternatives are shitter") isn't very sexy or exciting.0 -
Sure. I do think the under 35s are really overlooked across the West.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
And, as we know from Brexit, trying to sell the status quo ("It's a bit shït, but the alternatives are shitter") isn't very sexy or exciting.0 -
every generation has thought that.rick_chasey said:
Sure. I do think the under 35s are really overlooked across the West.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
And, as we know from Brexit, trying to sell the status quo ("It's a bit shït, but the alternatives are shitter") isn't very sexy or exciting.
the only difference with the "entitled" millenials was that they had social media to broadcast it2 -
Do you think you will ever recover from Brexit?briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
And, as we know from Brexit, trying to sell the status quo ("It's a bit shït, but the alternatives are shitter") isn't very sexy or exciting.1 -
I don't think it is hard to see that some generations have things a bit easier than others. For example, some generations got to fight in world wars.surrey_commuter said:
every generation has thought that.rick_chasey said:
Sure. I do think the under 35s are really overlooked across the West.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
And, as we know from Brexit, trying to sell the status quo ("It's a bit shït, but the alternatives are shitter") isn't very sexy or exciting.
the only difference with the "entitled" millenials was that they had social media to broadcast it0 -
I read somewhere that they know roughly where the hostages are. They will also take risks to rescue the majority.Pross said:
I assume they decided there’s no safe way of releasing any hostages being held in the tunnels? Presumably one of the main points in Hamas taking these hostages in the first place was to prevent Israel taking those sorts of measures.briantrumpet said:Dorset_Boy said:Given the tunnels run under the city, blowing them up may be an issue for any above ground structures, but might there be the option to flood the tunnels?
Breaking: IDF reads Cakestop.0 -
It would not surpise me at all if the "300 miles" is a myth.rick_chasey said:
May sound obvious but given the military importance of the tunnels to HAMAS and the lack of intel the IDF have on them, the idea that Hamas would give witnesses back with tunnel intel to the IDF sounds mad.Pross said:
I assume they decided there’s no safe way of releasing any hostages being held in the tunnels? Presumably one of the main points in Hamas taking these hostages in the first place was to prevent Israel taking those sorts of measures.briantrumpet said:Dorset_Boy said:Given the tunnels run under the city, blowing them up may be an issue for any above ground structures, but might there be the option to flood the tunnels?
Breaking: IDF reads Cakestop.
As ever, the problem with hostage taking is the longer hostages are held, the more the rational logic dictates they can't survive. Hostage takers have more time to be loose lipped, the hostages more time to work out who they are and what they're doing, etc.
They will let hostages go as killing them all loses you all leverage the next time they do it.
Blindfolding a hostage until they are in a room underground won't give much info away.
The people responsible know that the Israeli's know who they are and they will kill them.0 -
This sounds very much like you sticking your fingers in your ears about this election result.surrey_commuter said:
every generation has thought that.rick_chasey said:
Sure. I do think the under 35s are really overlooked across the West.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
And, as we know from Brexit, trying to sell the status quo ("It's a bit shït, but the alternatives are shitter") isn't very sexy or exciting.
the only difference with the "entitled" millenials was that they had social media to broadcast it
Firstly a) perception is reality in politics. and b) this is the first generation since the war to expect lower living standards than the previous generation.
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I think it is factual that the hamas tunnel system is the most developed and sophisticated system seen in a war. And it is factual it is hundreds of kilometres.surrey_commuter said:
It would not surpise me at all if the "300 miles" is a myth.rick_chasey said:
May sound obvious but given the military importance of the tunnels to HAMAS and the lack of intel the IDF have on them, the idea that Hamas would give witnesses back with tunnel intel to the IDF sounds mad.Pross said:
I assume they decided there’s no safe way of releasing any hostages being held in the tunnels? Presumably one of the main points in Hamas taking these hostages in the first place was to prevent Israel taking those sorts of measures.briantrumpet said:Dorset_Boy said:Given the tunnels run under the city, blowing them up may be an issue for any above ground structures, but might there be the option to flood the tunnels?
Breaking: IDF reads Cakestop.
As ever, the problem with hostage taking is the longer hostages are held, the more the rational logic dictates they can't survive. Hostage takers have more time to be loose lipped, the hostages more time to work out who they are and what they're doing, etc.
They will let hostages go as killing them all loses you all leverage the next time they do it.
Blindfolding a hostage until they are in a room underground won't give much info away.
The people responsible know that the Israeli's know who they are and they will kill them.0 -
TheBigBean said:
Do you think you will ever recover from Brexit?briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
And, as we know from Brexit, trying to sell the status quo ("It's a bit shït, but the alternatives are shitter") isn't very sexy or exciting.
Maybe as it starts to get undone, but that'll probably only remind me how silly it was.
But it was a perfect example of populists pushing the 'grass must be greener on the other side' ("There will be no downsides") that all too often leads to (sometimes dangerous) incompetents ending up in power.0 -
Perhaps your epitaph can read "Brexit was wrong"briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
Do you think you will ever recover from Brexit?briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
And, as we know from Brexit, trying to sell the status quo ("It's a bit shït, but the alternatives are shitter") isn't very sexy or exciting.
Maybe as it starts to get undone, but that'll probably only remind me how silly it was.
But it was a perfect example of populists pushing the 'grass must be greener on the other side' ("There will be no downsides") that all too often leads to (sometimes dangerous) incompetents ending up in power.
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I have a relatively slow day so am happy to have a civilised debate.rick_chasey said:
This sounds very much like you sticking your fingers in your ears about this election result.surrey_commuter said:
every generation has thought that.rick_chasey said:
Sure. I do think the under 35s are really overlooked across the West.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
And, as we know from Brexit, trying to sell the status quo ("It's a bit shït, but the alternatives are shitter") isn't very sexy or exciting.
the only difference with the "entitled" millenials was that they had social media to broadcast it
Firstly a) perception is reality in politics. and b) this is the first generation since the war to expect lower living standards than the previous generation.
I reckon our differences are over measuring living standards.
Millenials (for me) are on the whole much better off than their parents because of the reduction in price of nearly everything from consumer goods to travel. The ££ cot of a flight is less than it was 40 years ago and they will be getting on the plane with a computer in their pocket. They will also get to the airport in a car that starts on a cold morning and does not have a tendency to break down.
These improvements have come about from megatrends such as globalisation and tech leaps.
Individually they may or may not be better off than their parents but that will be down to their own choices.
So my point is that without future mega trends benefiting the UK I see no reason why any generation should expect to be better off than their parents.0 -
I think it is telling that your idea of progress is a car that starts and a computer in your pocket, and not "having enough money and/or space to have a family".surrey_commuter said:
I have a relatively slow day so am happy to have a civilised debate.rick_chasey said:
This sounds very much like you sticking your fingers in your ears about this election result.surrey_commuter said:
every generation has thought that.rick_chasey said:
Sure. I do think the under 35s are really overlooked across the West.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
And, as we know from Brexit, trying to sell the status quo ("It's a bit shït, but the alternatives are shitter") isn't very sexy or exciting.
the only difference with the "entitled" millenials was that they had social media to broadcast it
Firstly a) perception is reality in politics. and b) this is the first generation since the war to expect lower living standards than the previous generation.
I reckon our differences are over measuring living standards.
Millenials (for me) are on the whole much better off than their parents because of the reduction in price of nearly everything from consumer goods to travel. The ££ cot of a flight is less than it was 40 years ago and they will be getting on the plane with a computer in their pocket. They will also get to the airport in a car that starts on a cold morning and does not have a tendency to break down.
These improvements have come about from megatrends such as globalisation and tech leaps.
Individually they may or may not be better off than their parents but that will be down to their own choices.
So my point is that without future mega trends benefiting the UK I see no reason why any generation should expect to be better off than their parents.
The issues are more basic, around things like not being able to afford to live near where the work is, and not being able to have enough room for the family you want etc. Or getting a job that pays properly > like I said i think the economic missmatch between education levels and the jobs available are a big problem in Europe > the US does better in this regard, much better.
The flippancy you've shown in your initial response is not particularly unusual and I suspect that that attitude also exists at a macro level, and that's why you're getting this swell of support for the far right in Germany, Italy, France and the Netherlands from the under 35s.0 -
You could argue that Boomers and Gen X were so successful in creating prosperity and raising living standards over a sustained period that Millenials assumed it would just carry on forever, which clearly it can't. Millenials should at least be thanking us for those achievements - and working harder to get us back on track.surrey_commuter said:
I have a relatively slow day so am happy to have a civilised debate.rick_chasey said:
This sounds very much like you sticking your fingers in your ears about this election result.surrey_commuter said:
every generation has thought that.rick_chasey said:
Sure. I do think the under 35s are really overlooked across the West.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
And, as we know from Brexit, trying to sell the status quo ("It's a bit shït, but the alternatives are shitter") isn't very sexy or exciting.
the only difference with the "entitled" millenials was that they had social media to broadcast it
Firstly a) perception is reality in politics. and b) this is the first generation since the war to expect lower living standards than the previous generation.
I reckon our differences are over measuring living standards.
Millenials (for me) are on the whole much better off than their parents because of the reduction in price of nearly everything from consumer goods to travel. The ££ cot of a flight is less than it was 40 years ago and they will be getting on the plane with a computer in their pocket. They will also get to the airport in a car that starts on a cold morning and does not have a tendency to break down.
These improvements have come about from megatrends such as globalisation and tech leaps.
Individually they may or may not be better off than their parents but that will be down to their own choices.
So my point is that without future mega trends benefiting the UK I see no reason why any generation should expect to be better off than their parents."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I think you should lead with this on your campaign to get the 18-35 vote.Stevo_666 said:
You could argue that Boomers and Gen X were so successful in creating prosperity and raising living standards over a sustained period that Millenials assumed it would just carry on forever, which clearly it can't. Millenials should at least be thanking us for those achievements - and working harder to get us back on track.0 -
You see flippancy in my attempt to explain to you how the overall standard of living has massively improved in my lifetime.rick_chasey said:
I think it is telling that your idea of progress is a car that starts and a computer in your pocket, and not "having enough money and/or space to have a family".surrey_commuter said:
I have a relatively slow day so am happy to have a civilised debate.rick_chasey said:
This sounds very much like you sticking your fingers in your ears about this election result.surrey_commuter said:
every generation has thought that.rick_chasey said:
Sure. I do think the under 35s are really overlooked across the West.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Yeah, very few parties were challenging the status quo and Wilders has answers that are challenging it.briantrumpet said:Thanks @rick_chasey - doesn't bode well for the future, as that generation is going to be around a long time, and if their views don't change, things could get spicy politically.
And, as we know from Brexit, trying to sell the status quo ("It's a bit shït, but the alternatives are shitter") isn't very sexy or exciting.
the only difference with the "entitled" millenials was that they had social media to broadcast it
Firstly a) perception is reality in politics. and b) this is the first generation since the war to expect lower living standards than the previous generation.
I reckon our differences are over measuring living standards.
Millenials (for me) are on the whole much better off than their parents because of the reduction in price of nearly everything from consumer goods to travel. The ££ cot of a flight is less than it was 40 years ago and they will be getting on the plane with a computer in their pocket. They will also get to the airport in a car that starts on a cold morning and does not have a tendency to break down.
These improvements have come about from megatrends such as globalisation and tech leaps.
Individually they may or may not be better off than their parents but that will be down to their own choices.
So my point is that without future mega trends benefiting the UK I see no reason why any generation should expect to be better off than their parents.
The issues are more basic, around things like not being able to afford to live near where the work is, and not being able to have enough room for the family you want etc. Or getting a job that pays properly > like I said i think the economic missmatch between education levels and the jobs available are a big problem in Europe > the US does better in this regard, much better.
The flippancy you've shown in your initial response is not particularly unusual and I suspect that that attitude also exists at a macro level, and that's why you're getting this swell of support for the far right in Germany, Italy, France and the Netherlands from the under 35s.
Do you really think that not having enough money or space to have a family was not a common problem before your generation?
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