La Vuelta 2023: Stage 13:- Formigal - Col du Tourmalet 135Kms ***Spoilers***

r0bh

RichN95. said:

r0bh said:

From the team's perspective isn't winning all three GTs with three different riders the best exhibition of the strength of the team?

From the team's perspective, sure. But Roglic and Vingegaard are team leaders. They're winners. They won't want to gift a GT to the staff.

"Staff" whose support they need for any future GT winning aspirations

blazing_saddles

RichN95. said:

DeadCalm said:

RichN95. said:

larkim said:

Just caught up, Jonas looked toasted by the top, Kuss looked as if he could do it all day. It looked like Roglic rode to keep Kuss in red, would be surprised if he continues like that though - surely he wants the second win for the year more than just being a happy team player rewarding his loyal servant?

I'm unconvinced that they'll happy with Kuss winning. Two GTs in one year has only been done twice in the last 25 years. Surely they're not going to pass up an opportunity. Roglic probably won't get another opportunity


Assuming Jumbo win this race, the person who came closest to beating them was a 37 year old. So much for the much vaunted new generation.

LOL

We can live in hope

Except Stannard didn’t need to win the race by minutes, just win.

TheBigBean

Wouldn't most people be happy with a Kuss win?

RichN95.

TheBigBean said:

Wouldn't most people be happy with a Kuss win?

For me no. Grand Tours shouldn't be a gift from friends. Especially as he's done the other two at a high standard already.

Right now, Jumbo Visma are looking like the cycling equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters.

Pross

RichN95. said:

TheBigBean said:

Wouldn't most people be happy with a Kuss win?

For me no. Grand Tours shouldn't be a gift from friends. Especially as he's done the other two at a high standard already.

Right now, Jumbo Visma are looking like the cycling equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters.

On the flip side what if Kuss is capable of winning it but gets instructed to ride for one of the others?

TheBigBean

RichN95. said:

TheBigBean said:

Wouldn't most people be happy with a Kuss win?

For me no. Grand Tours shouldn't be a gift from friends. Especially as he's done the other two at a high standard already.

Right now, Jumbo Visma are looking like the cycling equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters.

This is why Hinault had to attack Lemond to prove he was a worthy leader.

If they were racing against each other, where do you think the other two could gain time? Vinegaard didn't get much for his efforts today.

Ultimately they gave a guy who can climb very well a head start. And just like when Carapaz won the Giro, it's not the best idea.

mooro

twotoebenny said:

mooro said:

kingstongraham said:

The Tourmalet is just a great climb. That's my considered opinion.

I’ll be honest, they looked faster than me when i went up.

First time I rode up tat side was one march. I couldn’t see anything due to the mist literally 3m visibility, and then just after the last right hander at 1.5km to go the fog lifted; stunning view all the way back down the valley. Mint.

What was the plan for the descent with 3m visibility?

RichN95. said:

There's a film called Bedazzled in which the devil played by Peter Cook or Liz Hurley depending on which version, offers Dudley Moore/Brendan Fraser a series of wishes. But each one turns out to have a catch which makes the protagonist's situation worse.

I get the feeling that one of those people in who constantly bemoaned about Sky's 'domination' in the 2010s got such a wish and wished for their dominance to end. And this is where we are.

The one with Liz Hurley is so much easier to watch for some reason! (.)(.)

About 15mph with newspapers on every limb from the cafe at the top! Same as the ardiden earlier in the day.

mooro

RichN95. said:

TheBigBean said:

Wouldn't most people be happy with a Kuss win?

For me no. Grand Tours shouldn't be a gift from friends. Especially as he's done the other two at a high standard already.

Right now, Jumbo Visma are looking like the cycling equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters.

It is an exhibition, but Kuss does look surprisingly fresh and able to hold his own. It didn’t look like JV was far more powerful than him today.

RichN95.

This is likely the first Grand Tour, possibly any race, that will be decided by agents. The agents of the three Jumbo riders will be looking for trades and pay-offs now. The agent that has the most leverage over Jumbo will win.

pblakeney

mooro said:

twotoebenny said:

mooro said:

kingstongraham said:

The Tourmalet is just a great climb. That's my considered opinion.

I’ll be honest, they looked faster than me when i went up.

First time I rode up tat side was one march. I couldn’t see anything due to the mist literally 3m visibility, and then just after the last right hander at 1.5km to go the fog lifted; stunning view all the way back down the valley. Mint.

What was the plan for the descent with 3m visibility?

RichN95. said:

There's a film called Bedazzled in which the devil played by Peter Cook or Liz Hurley depending on which version, offers Dudley Moore/Brendan Fraser a series of wishes. But each one turns out to have a catch which makes the protagonist's situation worse.

I get the feeling that one of those people in who constantly bemoaned about Sky's 'domination' in the 2010s got such a wish and wished for their dominance to end. And this is where we are.

The one with Liz Hurley is so much easier to watch for some reason! (.)(.)

About 15mph with newspapers on every limb from the cafe at the top! Same as the ardiden earlier in the day.

My sweatathon. I descended the Tourmalet in full winter kit as it was 8C at the top which was a wise decision. However, the support vehicles were busy elsewhere so I climbed Luz Ardiden in that kit in 26C sunshine. Not pleasant, yet was my favourite climb of the tour.

pblakeney

A question. If Remco isn't ill does that mean he is simply not GT GC material?
Teams may be thinking negotiation status. I think he is ill, again. Which is still cause.

RichN95.

pblakeney said:

A question. If Remco isn't ill does that mean he is simply not GT GC material?
Teams may be thinking negotiation status. I think he is ill, again. Which is still cause.

He's ill or over-raced. He's better than this.

pblakeney

RichN95. said:

pblakeney said:

A question. If Remco isn't ill does that mean he is simply not GT GC material?
Teams may be thinking negotiation status. I think he is ill, again. Which is still cause.

He's ill or over-raced.He's better than this.

I don't think he is over-raced, I dare say stats are available but not a busy schedule AFAIK.
Constantly ill should be a concern if not over-raced.

kingstongraham

pblakeney said:

A question. If Remco isn't ill does that mean he is simply not GT GC material?
Teams may be thinking negotiation status. I think he is ill, again. Which is still cause.

He has won this race already, beating Mas and Ayuso, so it's either illness or he's prone to having one bad day. Too early to say which based on his three attempts that have managed to get that far.

andyp

RichN95. said:

This is likely the first Grand Tour, possibly any race, that will be decided by agents. The agents of the three Jumbo riders will be looking for trades and pay-offs now. The agent that has the most leverage over Jumbo will win.

I think Roglic and Vingegaard share an agent, no? Mattia Galli.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

A question. If Remco isn't ill does that mean he is simply not GT GC material?
Teams may be thinking negotiation status. I think he is ill, again. Which is still cause.

He has won this race already, beating Mas and Ayuso, so it's either illness or he's prone to having one bad day. Too early to say which based on his three attempts that have managed to get that far.

Or when he finds himself against the top dogs he has to go too deep early in the race and doesn’t recover quickly enough.

tailwindhome

I'd say my instructions to the riders is that Kuss is in red, and unless or until he looks like he's struggling he's the protected rider and he's not to be attacked. Essentially ride as a group of 3

My priority as a DS isn't who wins, it's that we lock down the podium and don't risk opening the door to any other rider.

I would release them from team orders on the final climb on stage 17.

That's your window to take back the red Jersey. But at the end of that stage the team orders will be reimposed.

I would limit however these team orders to racing. I would put no obligation on either of the 3 to wait for any other in the event of mishap or mechanical.

tailwindhome

I think

kingstongraham

tailwindhome said:

I'd say my instructions to the riders is that Kuss is in red, and unless or until he looks like he's struggling he's the protected rider and he's not to be attacked. Essentially ride as a group of 3

My priority as a DS isn't who wins, it's that we lock down the podium and don't risk opening the door to any other rider.

I would release them from team orders on the final climb on stage 17.

That's your window to take back the red Jersey. But at the end of that stage the team orders will be reimposed.

I would limit however these team orders to racing. I would put no obligation on either of the 3 to wait for any other in the event of mishap or mechanical.

Need to see you on a green screen team bus for this.

tailwindhome

kingstongraham said:

tailwindhome said:

I'd say my instructions to the riders is that Kuss is in red, and unless or until he looks like he's struggling he's the protected rider and he's not to be attacked. Essentially ride as a group of 3

My priority as a DS isn't who wins, it's that we lock down the podium and don't risk opening the door to any other rider.

I would release them from team orders on the final climb on stage 17.

That's your window to take back the red Jersey. But at the end of that stage the team orders will be reimposed.

I would limit however these team orders to racing. I would put no obligation on either of the 3 to wait for any other in the event of mishap or mechanical.

Need to see you on a green screen team bus for this.

Picking hairstyle and outfit now

rick_chasey

tailwindhome said:

I'd say my instructions to the riders is that Kuss is in red, and unless or until he looks like he's struggling he's the protected rider and he's not to be attacked. Essentially ride as a group of 3

My priority as a DS isn't who wins, it's that we lock down the podium and don't risk opening the door to any other rider.

I would release them from team orders on the final climb on stage 17.

That's your window to take back the red Jersey. But at the end of that stage the team orders will be reimposed.

I would limit however these team orders to racing. I would put no obligation on either of the 3 to wait for any other in the event of mishap or mechanical.

That’s fine for this race but if you want to keep the team together down the road it might be more complicated.

kingstongraham

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

A question. If Remco isn't ill does that mean he is simply not GT GC material?
Teams may be thinking negotiation status. I think he is ill, again. Which is still cause.

He has won this race already, beating Mas and Ayuso, so it's either illness or he's prone to having one bad day. Too early to say which based on his three attempts that have managed to get that far.

Or when he finds himself against the top dogs he has to go too deep early in the race and doesn’t recover quickly enough.

Roglic was here last year until stage 16.

tailwindhome

rick_chasey said:

tailwindhome said:

I'd say my instructions to the riders is that Kuss is in red, and unless or until he looks like he's struggling he's the protected rider and he's not to be attacked. Essentially ride as a group of 3

My priority as a DS isn't who wins, it's that we lock down the podium and don't risk opening the door to any other rider.

I would release them from team orders on the final climb on stage 17.

That's your window to take back the red Jersey. But at the end of that stage the team orders will be reimposed.

I would limit however these team orders to racing. I would put no obligation on either of the 3 to wait for any other in the event of mishap or mechanical.

That’s fine for this race but if you want to keep the team together down the road it might be more complicated.

Where do you think issues arise?

DeVlaeminck

I think tne tactics have to take account of what the plan was coming into the race and how the riders themselves feel.

I dont think it's a given JV and PR will be sore at Kuss being given leadership status and it may have been floated as a possible scenario pre-race.

Whilst Id love to see them race each other I dont think you can cut them loose on one or two stages like that especially if it ends up close.

No_Ta_Doctor

RichN95. said:

r0bh said:

From the team's perspective isn't winning all three GTs with three different riders the best exhibition of the strength of the team?

From the team's perspective, sure. But Roglic and Vingegaard are team leaders. They're winners. They won't want to gift a GT to the staff.

This is just backwards. Leaders inspire and motivate teams, they don't just grab the rewards and crap on their co-workers. They know it's not "gifting" any more than it's gifting when Kuss works for them. They've relied on him and he's delivered in multiple GTs, they'll be fine supporting him, they're still building the team spirit that will be there in the Giro and Tour nest year - and don't underestimate how this plays to the other domestiques

According to Kuss, Vingegaard asked for permission to attack for the stage win - and was granted it.

blazing_saddles

rick_chasey said:

tailwindhome said:

I'd say my instructions to the riders is that Kuss is in red, and unless or until he looks like he's struggling he's the protected rider and he's not to be attacked. Essentially ride as a group of 3

My priority as a DS isn't who wins, it's that we lock down the podium and don't risk opening the door to any other rider.

I would release them from team orders on the final climb on stage 17.

That's your window to take back the red Jersey. But at the end of that stage the team orders will be reimposed.

I would limit however these team orders to racing. I would put no obligation on either of the 3 to wait for any other in the event of mishap or mechanical.

That’s fine for this race but if you want to keep the team together down the road it might be more complicated.

And just how does attacking Kuss, who currently looks nailed on for the win, help keep the team together down the road?

rick_chasey

blazing_saddles said:

rick_chasey said:

tailwindhome said:

I'd say my instructions to the riders is that Kuss is in red, and unless or until he looks like he's struggling he's the protected rider and he's not to be attacked. Essentially ride as a group of 3

My priority as a DS isn't who wins, it's that we lock down the podium and don't risk opening the door to any other rider.

I would release them from team orders on the final climb on stage 17.

That's your window to take back the red Jersey. But at the end of that stage the team orders will be reimposed.

I would limit however these team orders to racing. I would put no obligation on either of the 3 to wait for any other in the event of mishap or mechanical.

That’s fine for this race but if you want to keep the team together down the road it might be more complicated.

And just how does attacking Kuss, who currently looks nailed on for the win, help keep the team together down the road?

If I’m Vingers or Roglic I’d be very much saying “I joined for Kuss to ride for me and not the other way around. That’s why you pay me the big bucks. I’m here to fill out my palmares, he’s paid to help me do that.”

larkim

So if Roglic or Jonas takes it on themselves to beat Kuss, without Kuss' consent, how do they stop Kuss' motivation levels dropping when he's asked to do a massive pull in the next GT that the team is trying to help JV or PR to win?
Long term I think it's in both PR and JVs interest to help Kuss, even if it means for both of them they sacrifice a second GT in the season

tailwindhome

The fun bit is when they both say that

blazing_saddles

rick_chasey said:

blazing_saddles said:

rick_chasey said:

tailwindhome said:

I'd say my instructions to the riders is that Kuss is in red, and unless or until he looks like he's struggling he's the protected rider and he's not to be attacked. Essentially ride as a group of 3

My priority as a DS isn't who wins, it's that we lock down the podium and don't risk opening the door to any other rider.

I would release them from team orders on the final climb on stage 17.

That's your window to take back the red Jersey. But at the end of that stage the team orders will be reimposed.

I would limit however these team orders to racing. I would put no obligation on either of the 3 to wait for any other in the event of mishap or mechanical.

That’s fine for this race but if you want to keep the team together down the road it might be more complicated.

And just how does attacking Kuss, who currently looks nailed on for the win, help keep the team together down the road?

If I’m Vingers or Roglic I’d be very much saying “I joined for Kuss to ride for me and not the other way around. That’s why you pay me the big bucks. I’m here to fill out my palmares, he’s paid to help me do that.”

If I am Kuss, having the measure of all my opponents and on the brink of winning a grand tour, I am not going to be saying “oh that’s alright, I don’t mind giving up such a glittering prize and the big bucks that I can expect in the future.”
Force him into submission and even someone as laid back as he is, will be out of the Jumbo door.