TDF 2023: Stage 6:- Tarbes to Cauterets, 145km ***Spoilers***
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Millar called it right in real time"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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Hindley definitely has a better haircut these days.
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There was so much going on in that stage"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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Nothing wrong with JVs tactics
Pog was just stronger.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!2 -
Still basking in it tbh.
Just hope they can keep it up.
Loved it, doubly so in the context of yesterday.2 -
OK, let's deal with this in two parts.
Firstly, the attack on the Tourmalet.
The reason for this was the belief that Jonas is better on longer, steep climbs, especially at altitude. On pretty much anything else Pog has a good chance of hanging with him and mugging him for bonus seconds. Attacking here, if things went well, was a race-winning chance. Not just a handful of seconds, but feasibly minutes. Van Aert was perfectly positioned for the descent and final climb. It didn't work, and Pog was able to stay with him. Maybe their info was suspect, maybe Jonas wasn't quite as good as yesterday, Pog was certainly better. And maybe they got a bit greedy and a bit carried away. Or maybe they're scared of Pog and got a bit desperate to twist the knife while they thought they could.
Secondly - what to do now we're racing for real and Pog isn't dropped?
They've put time into everyone else they don't really want to give back, Vingegaard still has WVA working, the final climb isn't too heavy but has some 10+% sections, before flattening again. If they'd set up to only race the final climb, thus is where he'd attack - in pretty much the same situation as they eventually got to, albeit maybe with Kuss working the launch. He needed to try and drop Pog on the steep part, because otherwise the attack was always going to come as it flattened out. At this point it's not a major risk any more, it's the minor risk they do every MTF. With hindsight he could maybe have not attacked and kept Wout longer, but I reckon the outcome wouldn't have been all that different, maybe a handful of seconds in it.
I see calculated risks that didn't come off, aggressive racing that everyone loves (and loves to critique!) and a fairly minimal loss of time - though with a psychological slap accompanying it. For what it's worth, Jonas seems pretty upbeat in interviews (admittedly this isn't easy to tell!). Let's have plenty more
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Looking back at the race positions on Tuesday evening, JV has come out of the last two days in a better position than Pog.Half man, Half bike0
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As others, but not everyone, have said above, I think Jumbo and Vingegaard made tactical mistakes today. Vingegaard's was towing Pogacar along towards the end, when it was clear Pogacar wasn't going to let go; Jumbo's mistake was (understandably perhaps) trying to double-down on what they yesterday perceived as temporary weakness in Pogacar.
But additionally, in conjunction, seems to be the desire of Vingegaard to already be in yellow with a good-sized margin, as if he can then hold the jersey till Paris. This strikes me as fairly unrealistic, I can't quickly think when last a leader after only 6 stages then kept the jersey until Paris – LA in 1999? I wonder if this idea may be driving the team tactics (especially if Vingegaard feels he might be without Van Aert in the last week, so needs a lead with a cushion).
As for Hindley, like someone above has said, it does look like Bora are only aiming at the podium. Hindley's disadvantage is that his main mountain helper, Buchmann, can't cope with fast ascents like happened on the Tourmalet today, Buchmann never has, he needs long constant pace climbs when stamina counts (another recent good helper-climber had the same 'deficiency', needed length and duration - Majka ?)
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Chris Froome usually took the jersey around stage 6 or 7, then usually held it to Paris.
In 2017 he took it on Stage 5, only for Fabio Aru to take it for a couple of days in the second week.0 -
Dropped James Shaw on a long ride in Derbyshire once...
In fairness he was recovering from a virus and coming out with us was his way of getting an easy ride. We had to make him stop and call his mum for a lift home rather than risk doing himself long term damage.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]2 -
....is he though?No_Ta_Doctor said:OK, let's deal with this in two parts.
Firstly, the attack on the Tourmalet.
The reason for this was the belief that Jonas is better on longer, steep climbs, especially at altitude.
The only other times JV has cracked Pog is when he has had a team mate to double team him first. The evidence would suggest that Jonas' strength is in recovering from lots of little attacks...
Anyhoo there is a lot of "Greatest comeback in sport ever, ever!!” happening on cyclo-twitter this eveningWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Not sure that's unrealistic - Froome took all his yellows stage 7 or 8, and held all but one of them all the way to Paris (2017 he loaned it to Aru for a couple of stages). Wiggins was stage 7 and never lost it.jimmyjams said:
But additionally, in conjunction, seems to be the desire of Vingegaard to already be in yellow with a good-sized margin, as if he can then hold the jersey till Paris. This strikes me as fairly unrealistic, I can't quickly think when last a leader after only 6 stages then kept the jersey until Paris – LA in 1999? I wonder if this idea may be driving the team tactics (especially if Vingegaard feels he might be without Van Aert in the last week, so needs a lead with a cushion).
Stage 6 is earlier, yes, but partly just because that's where the first mountains were. It's not about the stage number, it's about the opportunity - and it's pretty common to grab it as soon as the road goes up.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
On an aside, has anyone noticed how cheerful Cavendish seems on this victory lap? High fiving spectators, giving cheery interviews before the mountain stages joking about hanging around at the back... He seems in a really good space - I'm glad he's enjoying it.tailwindhome said:We keep doing laps until Cav wins one.
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Don't think there was a double team on Ventoux in 21 was there?ddraver said:
....is he though?No_Ta_Doctor said:OK, let's deal with this in two parts.
Firstly, the attack on the Tourmalet.
The reason for this was the belief that Jonas is better on longer, steep climbs, especially at altitude.
The only other times JV has cracked Pog is when he has had a team mate to double team him first. The evidence would suggest that Jonas' strength is in recovering from lots of little attacks...
Anyhoo there is a lot of "Greatest comeback in sport ever, ever!!” happening on cyclo-twitter this evening
Anywway, the theory is that long, steep, altitude (and heat) are Pog's weak spots. Because 8km at 6-7% certainly isn't. Jonas wasn't better than him today though.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No double teaming on the Loze in 2020 either.No_Ta_Doctor said:
Don't think there was a double team on Ventoux in 21 was there?ddraver said:
....is he though?No_Ta_Doctor said:OK, let's deal with this in two parts.
Firstly, the attack on the Tourmalet.
The reason for this was the belief that Jonas is better on longer, steep climbs, especially at altitude.
The only other times JV has cracked Pog is when he has had a team mate to double team him first. The evidence would suggest that Jonas' strength is in recovering from lots of little attacks...
Anyhoo there is a lot of "Greatest comeback in sport ever, ever!!” happening on cyclo-twitter this evening
Anywway, the theory is that long, steep, altitude (and heat) are Pog's weak spots. Because 8km at 6-7% certainly isn't. Jonas wasn't better than him today though.0 -
Nibali took the lead on stage 2 and only gave it up for 1 stage to a breakaway.
They were completely right to try and finish off Pogacar today. Vingergaard was way better than Pogacar yesterday and had every right to back himself today."Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago0 -
Pretty much ...they under estimated him .,..maybe they messed up.some basics feeding and the liketailwindhome said:Nothing wrong with JVs tactics
Pog was just stronger."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
No Jonas Vingegaard either though, it was Roglic (unless original poster used JV to mean Jumbo-Visma...)andyp said:
No double teaming on the Loze in 2020 either.No_Ta_Doctor said:
Don't think there was a double team on Ventoux in 21 was there?ddraver said:
....is he though?No_Ta_Doctor said:OK, let's deal with this in two parts.
Firstly, the attack on the Tourmalet.
The reason for this was the belief that Jonas is better on longer, steep climbs, especially at altitude.
The only other times JV has cracked Pog is when he has had a team mate to double team him first. The evidence would suggest that Jonas' strength is in recovering from lots of little attacks...
Anyhoo there is a lot of "Greatest comeback in sport ever, ever!!” happening on cyclo-twitter this evening
Anywway, the theory is that long, steep, altitude (and heat) are Pog's weak spots. Because 8km at 6-7% certainly isn't. Jonas wasn't better than him today though.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
They were right to put some pressure on Pogacar and see if he'd crack but was it necessary to go all in and expose Vingegaard that far out and was it wise to persist with the plan when Pogacar was sat on Vingegaard's wheel on the final climb ?gsk82 said:Nibali took the lead on stage 2 and only gave it up for 1 stage to a breakaway.
They were completely right to try and finish off Pogacar today. Vingergaard was way better than Pogacar yesterday and had every right to back himself today.
Surely if you are on that team bus this morning and someone raises the scenario what if we don't drop Pogacar and he's with JV 4k from the top nobody would answer just ride a hard consistent tempo.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
As far as I could see Vingegaard had Kuss and WVA working for him today. Pogacar had Kuss, WVA and Vingegaard working for him.0
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Knock it off and regroup? How far back was Kuss at the top of the Tourmalet? Let him back for the last climb and see if him & WVA can put Pogacar in the red. I don't think WVA could alone.No_Ta_Doctor said:OK, let's deal with this in two parts.
....
Secondly - what to do now we're racing for real and Pog isn't dropped?
I don't see the sense of voluntarily getting to an MTF without your top mountain teammate.
And in the valley Van Aert opened the gap to those behind. Why go that hard? Who was he racing?Twitter: @RichN950 -
Hey people of the Forum,
I've managed to avoid the result, and am currently 2 and a bit sets into the Murray match.
Was it a good stage, and from how far out would be a good distance to watch it from please?
Or would a highlights package do the job?Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
Scott CR1 SL 12
Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
Scott Foil 180 -
daniel_b said:
Hey people of the Forum,
I've managed to avoid the result, and am currently 2 and a bit sets into the Murray match.
Was it a good stage, and from how far out would be a good distance to watch it from please?
Yes very good. You're going to need 60km minimum (bottom of the Tourmalet)Twitter: @RichN951 -
Yes, definitely a good stage. Watch it from about halfway up the Tourmalet to understand the full context - 52km out or so? You can fast forward through the most of the descent and the little bit on the flat if you want to.daniel_b said:Hey people of the Forum,
I've managed to avoid the result, and am currently 2 and a bit sets into the Murray match.
Was it a good stage, and from how far out would be a good distance to watch it from please?
If you're really wanting the full, quick thing, grab the first half hour from kilometre zero to see how it set up.1 -
Lol.daniel_b said:Hey people of the Forum,
I've managed to avoid the result, and am currently 2 and a bit sets into the Murray match.
Was it a good stage, and from how far out would be a good distance to watch it from please?
It was epic. KM0 is a pretty decent place to start
If you can't watch it all, then from the bottom of the Tourmalet is essential
Warning No formatter is installed for the format1 -
Was about to say 52km to go.Lanterne_Rogue said:
Yes, definitely a good stage. Watch it from about halfway up the Tourmalet to understand the full context - 52km out or so? You can fast forward through the most of the descent and the little bit on the flat if you want to.daniel_b said:Hey people of the Forum,
I've managed to avoid the result, and am currently 2 and a bit sets into the Murray match.
Was it a good stage, and from how far out would be a good distance to watch it from please?
If you're really wanting the full, quick thing, grab the first half hour from kilometre zero to see how it set up.1 -
Thankyou gents, really helpful, can see this being a long night!
Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
Scott CR1 SL 12
Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
Scott Foil 182
