Weight, health & body image

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  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,762

    Honestly, I'm baffled at what you're on about.

    I mean, come on, if people do extreme amounts of exercise they will lose weight.

    That's a tiny proportion of people. That does not an overweight epidemic solve.

    So why even mention it?!!?! The health experts are explicitly saying specifically that exercise is basically irrelevant for anyone normal when it comes to weight loss.

    2.5 hours running a week isn't extreme though is it?

    Experts seem to be writing off the possibility of getting people active - the 90 minutes walking could be to and from work or school - but think making significant lasting changes to diet is realistic.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,211
    Meh, I bet the majority of people here are 5 or above on that chart and are kidding themselves cake doesn't matter. I would love to see all these people out exercising, that just isn't happening.

    This thread seems a litany of denial, calories in are salient.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,211
    edited April 2023

    I'm hearing/seeing a lot of of 5+ people in cars though.

    Wrong diet, substituted with pills.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,114

    Thread confirms all my pre-conceived ideas about what people think about this.

    1) men want to call out people about their weight in public, and are disappointed they can't and for some reason think it helps.

    2) If the evidence points to a counter-intuitive conclusion people will disregard on the basis of their own intuition. (aka. "had enough of experts")

    3) the public health message that weight is largely about diet is falling on deaf ears.

    4) not very many people are interested in why people overeat, and seem to be of the conclusion they they are somehow either in denial about it or are lazy (because, of course, as cyclists who aren't fat, we are more virtuous than people who are, or something ridiculous like that)

    1) Literally no-one has said that, in fact a few people have said the exact opposite and RJS has also said several times that there is a need to understand the issues that lead to over-eating as well as actually dealing with the obesity side. Maybe the reason you struggle to get people to agree with you is you just make up what others are claiming.

    2) Try reading the actual studies you quote rather than just the headlines and quotes that make it into the newspaper article you are linking to. There is often a lot more nuance - I've linked to the report mention in The Guardian and quoted the summary from that study, it doesn't say what you continue to claim.

    3) Agreed but I also think the public health side of things hould look into the factors that RJS has mentioned. Simply saying eat less and more healthily isn't going to solve anything in the same way as saying stop smoking / drinking alcohol as they are bad for you doesn't work.

    4) This is the first time you have mentioned understanding why people over-eat on this thread but others have mentioned it before you.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 18,270
    I'm a 4, but just starting to have to think about reducing intake a tad, or I'll be a 5... 10 years ago I was doing about 9000 miles a year on the bike, and eating as much and as often as I liked, but a combination of things has reduced my mileage (but not my appetite by an equivalent amount).
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,114

    Honestly, I'm baffled at what you're on about.

    I mean, come on, if people do extreme amounts of exercise they will lose weight.

    That's a tiny proportion of people. That does not an overweight epidemic solve.

    So why even mention it?!!?! The health experts are explicitly saying specifically that exercise is basically irrelevant for anyone normal when it comes to weight loss.

    90 minutes of brisk walking is hardly 'extreme amounts of exercise'.

    The really interesting thing is that Pangolin has dug that out from one of the studies you linked to whereas I looked into the detail of another of the studies and it seemed to suggest the opposite i.e. that moderate levels of exercise help with weight loss but that the benefit plateaus as you do more so even the studies from the experts you have linked to contradict each others findings.
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,094
    edited April 2023

    lol, Why does the second paragraph there matter when the first paragraph is there?

    Who's gonna run 30 mins a day more than 5 days a week? You're not being realistic here.

    That would be barely even a light week for me in terms of volume.

    Having said that, it was chuffing hard to maintain a training routine when the kids were small given they are only 15 months apart in age. The only time I've not trained at least twice that per week for a sustained period of time was when we moved house and out stuff, including my rowing machine, when into storage for a few months.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,928
    yellowv2 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    The thing is Calories are not all the same.
    Calories obtained from natural food source will have a different effect than those obtained from artificial trans fats, which is why full fat yoghurt for example is more healthy than low or zero fat yoghurt. Similarly fast food calories are unhealthy compared to whole food calories.
    Trans fats will accumulate up to three times more visceral fat and have a different insulin response, which will have a different energy response and metabolise differently, the glucose is not disposed of as quickly.
    Which is why it's not as simple as calories in vs out.

    But for a given person, if they eat more / less of the "same" type of food as normal then with maintained exercise levels, they will lose / gain weight.

    The "athlete diet" is very different to the average diet. (More complex carbs, less fat and less processed in general.) My offspring are both at Uni and are a triathlete and a swimmer. They regularly dine with their non-athlete friends and then have to eat a "proper" meal afterwards to fuel up for training the next day.

    There's a saying amongst age group swimmers that they all have to learn the hard way that pizza is not a good pre-race meal!
    However if they eat a poor diet lots of fast food and high in trans fats then they will still be predisposed to type 2 diabetes and visceral fat. It would also depend on the pizza, a pizza made from artisan baked soughdough topped with quality meats/veggies is an entirely different proposition to one from Domino’s et al.
    You know the word artisan has absolutely no nutritional meaning, right?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,114

    It's fairly simple. If you're fit, you can burn a meaningful amount of calories through exercise. If you're not fit, which is quite likely if you are obese, you won't be able to burn a meaningful amount through exercise.

    No expert required.

    But if you are obese and decide to start doing a moderate level of exercise that study by Pontzner suggests you will get more benefits than someone who is not obese.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,114


    I'm hearing/seeing a lot of of 5+ people in cars though.

    Wrong diet, substituted with pills.

    Those sketches aren't really very helpful, I really can't work out where I fall. I suspect I'm a 4 but drift to a 5 if I don't exercise for a few weeks (despite exercise not having any impact).
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,211
    Pross said:


    I'm hearing/seeing a lot of of 5+ people in cars though.

    Wrong diet, substituted with pills.

    Those sketches aren't really very helpful, I really can't work out where I fall. I suspect I'm a 4 but drift to a 5 if I don't exercise for a few weeks (despite exercise not having any impact).
    I think people can get the gist of it though.

    It's interesting studies on identical twins. They often have the same body mass too.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,211
    Indeed, it is extremely rare to find genetically identical twins, who differ in body weight (demonstarting just how highly heritable body weight actually is). Thus, body weight in identical twins is remarkably homogeneous not only because of the heritability of weight per se but also due to heritability of weight gain.
    https://www.drsharma.ca/when-identical-twins-are-different#:~:text=Indeed, it is extremely rare,to heritability of weight gain.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,211
    Meh, we're wangered then.

    BISCUITS!
  • yellowv2
    yellowv2 Posts: 282
    rjsterry said:

    yellowv2 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    The thing is Calories are not all the same.
    Calories obtained from natural food source will have a different effect than those obtained from artificial trans fats, which is why full fat yoghurt for example is more healthy than low or zero fat yoghurt. Similarly fast food calories are unhealthy compared to whole food calories.
    Trans fats will accumulate up to three times more visceral fat and have a different insulin response, which will have a different energy response and metabolise differently, the glucose is not disposed of as quickly.
    Which is why it's not as simple as calories in vs out.

    But for a given person, if they eat more / less of the "same" type of food as normal then with maintained exercise levels, they will lose / gain weight.

    The "athlete diet" is very different to the average diet. (More complex carbs, less fat and less processed in general.) My offspring are both at Uni and are a triathlete and a swimmer. They regularly dine with their non-athlete friends and then have to eat a "proper" meal afterwards to fuel up for training the next day.

    There's a saying amongst age group swimmers that they all have to learn the hard way that pizza is not a good pre-race meal!
    However if they eat a poor diet lots of fast food and high in trans fats then they will still be predisposed to type 2 diabetes and visceral fat. It would also depend on the pizza, a pizza made from artisan baked soughdough topped with quality meats/veggies is an entirely different proposition to one from Domino’s et al.
    You know the word artisan has absolutely no nutritional meaning, right?
    It has no nutritional meaning. I have used it to illustrate the difference between standard baked breads and artisan baked. An artisan soughdough should contain no yeast, or any other additives that most supermarket bread has and is therefore nutritionally different.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    edited April 2023

    lol, Why does the second paragraph there matter when the first paragraph is there?

    Who's gonna run 30 mins a day more than 5 days a week? You're not being realistic here.

    My last weeks exercise
    Saturday. 40 minute dog walk, 90 minutes indoor climbing and finger training.
    Sunday. 2 hours 32 minutes cycling.
    Monday. 1 hour 4 minutes cycling ( intervals) 40 minutes dog walk.
    Tuesday. 1 hour dog walk. 90 minutes weight training and finger training.
    Wednesday. 40 minute dog walk. 4 hours cycling.
    Thursday. 40 minute dog walk. 30 minutes stretching.
    Friday. 90 minutes indoor climbing and finger training.
    This 10 weeks post hip replacement. Some people do actually exercise most days.
    I will be having takeaway Pizza and chips for tea washed down with red wine.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,211
    webboo said:

    lol, Why does the second paragraph there matter when the first paragraph is there?

    Who's gonna run 30 mins a day more than 5 days a week? You're not being realistic here.

    My last weeks exercise
    Saturday. 40 minute dog walk, 90 minutes indoor climbing and finger training.
    Sunday. 2 hours 32 minutes cycling.
    Monday. 1 hour 4 minutes cycling ( intervals) 40 minutes dog walk.
    Tuesday. 1 hour dog walk. 90 minutes weight training and finger training.
    Wednesday. 40 minute dog walk. 4 hours cycling.
    Thursday. 40 minute dog walk. 30 minutes stretching.
    Friday. 90 minutes indoor climbing and finger training.
    This 10 weeks post hip replacement. Some people do actually exercise most days.
    I will be having takeaway Pizza and chips for tea washed down with red wine.
    Good for you and you should be proud, you don't represent the average Joe though.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087

    webboo said:

    lol, Why does the second paragraph there matter when the first paragraph is there?

    Who's gonna run 30 mins a day more than 5 days a week? You're not being realistic here.

    My last weeks exercise
    Saturday. 40 minute dog walk, 90 minutes indoor climbing and finger training.
    Sunday. 2 hours 32 minutes cycling.
    Monday. 1 hour 4 minutes cycling ( intervals) 40 minutes dog walk.
    Tuesday. 1 hour dog walk. 90 minutes weight training and finger training.
    Wednesday. 40 minute dog walk. 4 hours cycling.
    Thursday. 40 minute dog walk. 30 minutes stretching.
    Friday. 90 minutes indoor climbing and finger training.
    This 10 weeks post hip replacement. Some people do actually exercise most days.
    I will be having takeaway Pizza and chips for tea washed down with red wine.
    Good for you and you should be proud, you don't represent the average Joe though.
    Most the people I know who ride or climb do the same. Well maybe not the Pizza and chips.
  • webboo said:

    lol, Why does the second paragraph there matter when the first paragraph is there?

    Who's gonna run 30 mins a day more than 5 days a week? You're not being realistic here.

    My last weeks exercise
    Saturday. 40 minute dog walk, 90 minutes indoor climbing and finger training.
    Sunday. 2 hours 32 minutes cycling.
    Monday. 1 hour 4 minutes cycling ( intervals) 40 minutes dog walk.
    Tuesday. 1 hour dog walk. 90 minutes weight training and finger training.
    Wednesday. 40 minute dog walk. 4 hours cycling.
    Thursday. 40 minute dog walk. 30 minutes stretching.
    Friday. 90 minutes indoor climbing and finger training.
    This 10 weeks post hip replacement. Some people do actually exercise most days.
    I will be having takeaway Pizza and chips for tea washed down with red wine.
    The double session days combining dogwalk and your exercise are particularly impressive. For time efficiency, my dog gets her outings with me when I'm running. I'm still cr*p at running though.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    I’m babysitting my daughters dogs while she’s living the high life in Brunei. They are both quite old, one wouldn’t walk at all if you let him yet the other goes mental with excitement soon as he sees the lead. Just doesn’t get tired.
  • Re how many calories one can burn exercising when fit, 1,000 per hour for full on exercise for a 75kg guy is a decent ball park.

    Sustainable power for an hour per WattBike: circa 300 watts (<=> ftp of 4.0 w/kg - middle of the road respectability)

    1 calorie = 4.2 joules. (When we talk of "calories" in food terms, we actually mean kilocalories)

    Human body efficiency at converting food to work applied (e.g. as measured by powermeter on bike): 25%
    See: https://phys.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Conceptual_Physics/Book:_Body_Physics_-_Motion_to_Metabolism_(Davis)/10:_Powering_the_Body/10.09:_Efficiency_of_the_Human_Body#:~:text=The Efficiency of the Human Body Compared to, 58 % 5 more rows

    One hour at 300 watts <=> 300 * 60 * 60 joules = 1,080,000 joules

    = 250 (kilo)calories approx

    which requires 250 / 25% (kilo)calories of food to be metabolised

    = 1,000

    So 1,000 (kilo) calories in an hour for a full on effort, meaning 600-700 per hour of typical daily exercise running (circa 5:30 per kilo on undulating off road course <=> 5:00 per mile on flat road) feels eminently reasonable. (Probably going too hard for optimum training at my age, but circular routes are circular routes and lunch hour is an hour.)

    "Back in the day" i.e. 20 years ago when I was rowing, I worked on 1,200 calories per hour, which is consistent with me being younger and near my aerobic prime and rowing using more muscle groups than cycling.
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,004

    Thread confirms all my pre-conceived ideas about what people think about this.

    1) men want to call out people about their weight in public, and are disappointed they can't and for some reason think it helps.

    2) If the evidence points to a counter-intuitive conclusion people will disregard on the basis of their own intuition. (aka. "had enough of experts")

    3) the public health message that weight is largely about diet is falling on deaf ears.

    4) not very many people are interested in why people overeat, and seem to be of the conclusion they they are somehow either in denial about it or are lazy (because, of course, as cyclists who aren't fat, we are more virtuous than people who are, or something ridiculous like that)

    Is that not just confirmation bias.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,928
    edited April 2023
    yellowv2 said:

    rjsterry said:

    yellowv2 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    The thing is Calories are not all the same.
    Calories obtained from natural food source will have a different effect than those obtained from artificial trans fats, which is why full fat yoghurt for example is more healthy than low or zero fat yoghurt. Similarly fast food calories are unhealthy compared to whole food calories.
    Trans fats will accumulate up to three times more visceral fat and have a different insulin response, which will have a different energy response and metabolise differently, the glucose is not disposed of as quickly.
    Which is why it's not as simple as calories in vs out.

    But for a given person, if they eat more / less of the "same" type of food as normal then with maintained exercise levels, they will lose / gain weight.

    The "athlete diet" is very different to the average diet. (More complex carbs, less fat and less processed in general.) My offspring are both at Uni and are a triathlete and a swimmer. They regularly dine with their non-athlete friends and then have to eat a "proper" meal afterwards to fuel up for training the next day.

    There's a saying amongst age group swimmers that they all have to learn the hard way that pizza is not a good pre-race meal!
    However if they eat a poor diet lots of fast food and high in trans fats then they will still be predisposed to type 2 diabetes and visceral fat. It would also depend on the pizza, a pizza made from artisan baked soughdough topped with quality meats/veggies is an entirely different proposition to one from Domino’s et al.
    You know the word artisan has absolutely no nutritional meaning, right?
    It has no nutritional meaning. I have used it to illustrate the difference between standard baked breads and artisan baked. An artisan soughdough should contain no yeast, or any other additives that most supermarket bread has and is therefore nutritionally different.
    Sorry, pet peeve of mine. Artisan is just marketing, the same as Farmhouse and Rustic. Bread is bread. There's a difference between white and wholemeal flours in terms of the amount of fibre. If you make your own you can control the amount of salt you add (our local bakery adds LOADS). The odd bits and bobs to make white sliced last longer are not going to make a noticeable difference to how many calories the bread contains. And yes, sourdough does have yeast in it. Otherwise it wouldn't rise. It might be naturally occurring yeast, but it's essentially the same thing as the stuff you get in a sachet. A microorganism that feeds off the sugars in the flour and produces a gas which makes the dough rise. Some people find sourdough easier to digest but it's not going to fundamentally change the calorie content.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • It seems fairly obvious that our obesity epidemic is due to societal shifts over the last few decades. I think the major issue is food quality, processed/fast/junk foods have, for many, become a staple part of their diet. As has been pointed out by others, the body just cannot process this like fresh food.

    Combined trash foods with overeating and lack of activity and you get obesity.

    As for the experts who say disassociate exercise from obesity, I get what they are saying, and agree that jogging for an hour a few times a week won't doo much. However, completely sedentary lifestyles must have an impact on metabolism and weight?

    I look at my dad's generation when he was in his 20/30's. Men were skinny but they ate '3 square meals' a day. The main difference was that it was all fresh food, and they were active, not sitting at a desk or driving everywhere.

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 18,270
    I'd add in the relentless promotion of snacking stuff too. Don't think my parents' generation ever ate much in between meals.
  • wakemalcolm
    wakemalcolm Posts: 698
    Yes, snacking's a weird one. I don't recall ever snacking in between meals yet my (reasonably fit & healthy) kids can't seem to survive 2 hours without raiding the snack cupboard.
    ================================
    Cake is just weakness entering the body
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    The snacking thing I get. In a more primitive time, you’d grab berries and stuff as you go.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    Apparently Stone Age folk tended to graze on sweet things like fruit and berries as they moved about. But only ate savoury things when they stopped moving for the day.
    So grabbing a pasty or pie from Greggs would be a no, no.
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,367
    webboo said:

    Apparently Stone Age folk tended to graze on sweet things like fruit and berries as they moved about. But only ate savoury things when they stopped moving for the day.
    So grabbing a pasty or pie from Greggs would be a no, no.

    What if you grab a pie then stop moving?
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • yellowv2
    yellowv2 Posts: 282
    rjsterry said:

    yellowv2 said:

    rjsterry said:

    yellowv2 said:

    yellowv2 said:

    The thing is Calories are not all the same.
    Calories obtained from natural food source will have a different effect than those obtained from artificial trans fats, which is why full fat yoghurt for example is more healthy than low or zero fat yoghurt. Similarly fast food calories are unhealthy compared to whole food calories.
    Trans fats will accumulate up to three times more visceral fat and have a different insulin response, which will have a different energy response and metabolise differently, the glucose is not disposed of as quickly.
    Which is why it's not as simple as calories in vs out.

    But for a given person, if they eat more / less of the "same" type of food as normal then with maintained exercise levels, they will lose / gain weight.

    The "athlete diet" is very different to the average diet. (More complex carbs, less fat and less processed in general.) My offspring are both at Uni and are a triathlete and a swimmer. They regularly dine with their non-athlete friends and then have to eat a "proper" meal afterwards to fuel up for training the next day.

    There's a saying amongst age group swimmers that they all have to learn the hard way that pizza is not a good pre-race meal!
    However if they eat a poor diet lots of fast food and high in trans fats then they will still be predisposed to type 2 diabetes and visceral fat. It would also depend on the pizza, a pizza made from artisan baked soughdough topped with quality meats/veggies is an entirely different proposition to one from Domino’s et al.
    You know the word artisan has absolutely no nutritional meaning, right?
    It has no nutritional meaning. I have used it to illustrate the difference between standard baked breads and artisan baked. An artisan soughdough should contain no yeast, or any other additives that most supermarket bread has and is therefore nutritionally different.
    Sorry, pet peeve of mine. Artisan is just marketing, the same as Farmhouse and Rustic. Bread is bread. There's a difference between white and wholemeal flours in terms of the amount of fibre. If you make your own you can control the amount of salt you add (our local bakery adds LOADS). The odd bits and bobs to make white sliced last longer are not going to make a noticeable difference to how many calories the bread contains. And yes, sourdough does have yeast in it. Otherwise it wouldn't rise. It might be naturally occurring yeast, but it's essentially the same thing as the stuff you get in a sachet. A microorganism that feeds off the sugars in the flour and produces a gas which makes the dough rise. Some people find sourdough easier to digest but it's not going to fundamentally change the calorie content.
    Ok so naturally occurring is the difference.
    The reason soughdough is easier to digest is because the natural fermentation process is lengthy ( which why quality soughdough is expensive), allows the gluten to break down and is digested more easily. Whilst the extra additives might not necessarily affect the calories (they may) but as I said at the beginning calories are not equal, ie the additives effect this, sugars etc. which are similar to the additives in the low fat products which I mentioned earlier are metabolised differently. They are not converted to glucose in the same way and can result in visceral fat.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    pangolin said:

    webboo said:

    Apparently Stone Age folk tended to graze on sweet things like fruit and berries as they moved about. But only ate savoury things when they stopped moving for the day.
    So grabbing a pasty or pie from Greggs would be a no, no.

    What if you grab a pie then stop moving?
    Like a really big pie that you can’t lift. I.e a Desperate Dan Cow pie.