The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)
Comments
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I was out in China a few years ago when cars were becoming common but before they started putting in traffic control. Everybody -cyclists, mopeds, motorcycles, cars and trucks - travelled at about 7 - 8 mph. Junctions were a matter of just moving around the other traffic, just like pedestrians do, so there was no significant slowing. As a system it worked. They now have wide carriageways and traffic control, and huge traffic jams, just like the rest of the world.TheBigBean said:
Pedestrians are able to pass each other at "junctions" without so much of a delay though.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
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Should add the UK I think is one of the safest countries in the world when it comes to road safety.0
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Even if out of date somewhat, this has a useful chart:rick_chasey said:Should add the UK I think is one of the safest countries in the world when it comes to road safety.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate0 -
In Cambridge!
Pross said:
I suspect it becomes less desireable once you have kids. My (possibly cliched) view of those living in expensive high rise developments is that they are career obsessed types. I can certainly see attractions in a penthouse suite in Docklands, the views would be incredible and you are close to the action,and the Battersea development looks good but I couldn't handle the claustrophobic nature of it being my life. My daughter lived in a lovely new development on Salford Quays although the view was spoiled by overlooking Old Trafford, as a youngster it was a great spot but even she struggled managing with her dog.rjsterry said:
Depends which you are talking about. Some are extremely desirable with waiting lists for a flat. You might have noticed a lot of big developments around places like Nine Elms for example. All towers and all aimed at high earners. So not true to say we've tried it and moved on. Of course not everyone fancies it, just as not everyone thinks driving a car is fun.Stevo_666 said:
I thought we'd already tried big rise living in quite a few places and it hasn't been an unqualified success. Not everyone wants to live in a high rise with no private green space.rjsterry said:
The original Idea was that by building in towers there was LOTS of space left for parks and greenery. Guess which bit was cut to save money. On the other handrick_chasey said:
I mean, it is literally more land efficient, for starters. Is Los Angeles your ideal city or something?First.Aspect said:
Calling rjs to the thread - we need someone qualifies to explain why building up isn't more resource efficient. RC won't believe anyone else.rick_chasey said:
That's where we're all headed, right? That is where all the trends point to. So you've got to build something around that, rather than just decry that you don't like it and pretend it's not happening already.pblakeney said:Ricktopia, with green spaces.
No thanks.
https://www.archdaily.com/976437/how-singapore-is-pioneering-the-way-to-creating-a-greener-urban-environment
And even in this country.
But height isn't necessary - you can build at pretty high densities and still have plenty of green.
The other issue with high density development is that it still needs somewhere to be built and as the point of it is to condense people into an area they want to be you would need to either build on what greenspace is remaining or start flattening some of the existing low density housing to make way for redevelopment. Up until now there has been a lot of Brownfield redevelopment of old industrial sites such as Battersea, Docklands, Stratford but that supply won't last forever.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
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Parked in your street? 😉rick_chasey said:
Yup know some people who live there. Where are the cars?rjsterry said:In Cambridge!
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.4 -
As the inventor of Leftiebollox, there maybe some trademark infringement issue here. My point is there is not a massive scope to shift that split given urbanisation level as are already very high.rjsterry said:
All of the UK population growth is in urban areas and rural population continues to decline, so this is just incorrect. Countrybollox even 😀Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Why do I need to have one? Point is, most of it has been done already and while may still get some small changes it will not be huge. You are also making a few assumptions about the long term population trends which I'm sure you will post a graph about soon. After all, if this country is really the post-Brexit hell you claim it to be, why would people want to come here?rick_chasey said:
So what's your solution to accommodate the rising population?Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Is that true? I thought there was a mass exodus because during Covid people realised they wanted a garden. There seems to be lots of developments around rural areas where they can get land.rjsterry said:
All of the UK population growth is in urban areas and rural population continues to decline, so this is just incorrect. Countrybollox even 😀Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues.0 -
Maybe I'm wrong about that one. Neal St and others around there don't have proper pavements, and the roads do go to places although they're not very busy.kingstongraham said:
Villiers Street always struck me as just a street with lots of pedestrians on it and didn't give vehicle access to anywhere really - it had a proper pavement. They are now making it pedestrians and cycles only apart from 6:30am to 11am.TheBigBean said:
There's no curb and both have pedestrians all over them. Neal st isn't straight as well. I see the bollards as restrictions on cars not people.kingstongraham said:
Both have a pavement with bollards.TheBigBean said:
How about Villiers St or Neal St? Do they count?kingstongraham said:
Do you have a link to a street view of what one looks like?Pross said:
In the UK or anywhere?kingstongraham said:
Has this been shown to work anywhere?Pross said:
I never mentioned the size of a car. I was pointing out that it isn’t lack of road space that causes traffic jams, it is junction capacity.TheBigBean said:
Your argument was that the size of a car wasn't contributing to congestion as all congestion is at junctions, but those junctions are far more congested than they would be if cars were only the size of people.Pross said:
Maybe we should do away with give way lines, roundabouts and traffic lights - just let cars make their own way throughTheBigBean said:
Pedestrians are able to pass each other at "junctions" without so much of a delay though.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Also, it is always interesting how, when the traffic lights fail, there is never a queue. Obviously, pedestrians suffer in those cases.
I’ve actually been an advocate of removing traffic control and segregation in urban areas (in the right situations) for about 15 years. My old boss was very vocal on it and tried pushing a few schemes through but it’s impossible to get beyond the old school thinking in most highway departments (we can’t model this so you can’t demonstrate it will work etc.) and then there’s various pressure groups that deliberately misrepresent the proposals and make it emotive.
I can't imagine that it's very good for pedestrians when they are depending on drivers' goodwill to allow them space. It doesn't seem ideal when this is the system for cyclists.
Works well in Denmark and Hans Monderman’s work in Delft is the usual example.
UK examples aren’t great because of the issues I mentioned. It means that not many examples get through and those that do are heavily compromised. Poynton is probably the best example I can think of.
It looks like the nearest in London is Exhibition Road which isn't really shared at all, because they have put barriers to delimit the pavement.
Difficult to imagine it in these days of big bits of concrete to keep vehicles away from pedestrians.
These are one way streets that don't really go anywhere where there are lots of pedestrians - I don't think that's really the same thing but could be wrong.0 -
To the 'burbs and market towns, not to the countryside.focuszing723 said:
Is that true? I thought there was a mass exodus because during Covid people realised they wanted a garden. There seems to be lots of developments around rural areas where they can get land.rjsterry said:
All of the UK population growth is in urban areas and rural population continues to decline, so this is just incorrect. Countrybollox even 😀Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues.0 -
Lots of development going on in villages when there is land available, and those properties get snapped up quickly.rick_chasey said:
To the 'burbs and market towns, not to the countryside.focuszing723 said:
Is that true? I thought there was a mass exodus because during Covid people realised they wanted a garden. There seems to be lots of developments around rural areas where they can get land.rjsterry said:
All of the UK population growth is in urban areas and rural population continues to decline, so this is just incorrect. Countrybollox even 😀Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues.0 -
My point is I'm proposing a solution to the obvious problem that cars are better suited to less dense areas and when people don't care about the quality of their air or carbon emissions.Stevo_666 said:
Why do I need to have one? Point is, most of it has been done already and while may still get some small changes it will not be huge. You are also making a few assumptions about the long term population trends which I'm sure you will post a graph about soon. After all, if this country is really the post-Brexit hell you claim it to be, why would people want to come here?rick_chasey said:
So what's your solution to accommodate the rising population?Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues.
Alas, that's no longer going to be the case, so you need to find an alternative. I'm suggesting one, and you are poo-pooing it. That's fine, but without an alternative, we just run into the same problems - traffic, pollution, carbon emissions and missing metals to create sufficient batteries.0 -
This area, right? The one way just goes round in a circle, but yes, the design of the road and the relative volumes of pedestrians and cars makes the traffic the secondary road user, even if it hasn't removed the cues that make a road a road.TheBigBean said:
Maybe I'm wrong about that one. Neal St and others around there don't have proper pavements, and the roads do go to places although they're not very busy.kingstongraham said:
Villiers Street always struck me as just a street with lots of pedestrians on it and didn't give vehicle access to anywhere really - it had a proper pavement. They are now making it pedestrians and cycles only apart from 6:30am to 11am.TheBigBean said:
There's no curb and both have pedestrians all over them. Neal st isn't straight as well. I see the bollards as restrictions on cars not people.kingstongraham said:
Both have a pavement with bollards.TheBigBean said:
How about Villiers St or Neal St? Do they count?kingstongraham said:
Do you have a link to a street view of what one looks like?Pross said:
In the UK or anywhere?kingstongraham said:
Has this been shown to work anywhere?Pross said:
I never mentioned the size of a car. I was pointing out that it isn’t lack of road space that causes traffic jams, it is junction capacity.TheBigBean said:
Your argument was that the size of a car wasn't contributing to congestion as all congestion is at junctions, but those junctions are far more congested than they would be if cars were only the size of people.Pross said:
Maybe we should do away with give way lines, roundabouts and traffic lights - just let cars make their own way throughTheBigBean said:
Pedestrians are able to pass each other at "junctions" without so much of a delay though.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Also, it is always interesting how, when the traffic lights fail, there is never a queue. Obviously, pedestrians suffer in those cases.
I’ve actually been an advocate of removing traffic control and segregation in urban areas (in the right situations) for about 15 years. My old boss was very vocal on it and tried pushing a few schemes through but it’s impossible to get beyond the old school thinking in most highway departments (we can’t model this so you can’t demonstrate it will work etc.) and then there’s various pressure groups that deliberately misrepresent the proposals and make it emotive.
I can't imagine that it's very good for pedestrians when they are depending on drivers' goodwill to allow them space. It doesn't seem ideal when this is the system for cyclists.
Works well in Denmark and Hans Monderman’s work in Delft is the usual example.
UK examples aren’t great because of the issues I mentioned. It means that not many examples get through and those that do are heavily compromised. Poynton is probably the best example I can think of.
It looks like the nearest in London is Exhibition Road which isn't really shared at all, because they have put barriers to delimit the pavement.
Difficult to imagine it in these days of big bits of concrete to keep vehicles away from pedestrians.
These are one way streets that don't really go anywhere where there are lots of pedestrians - I don't think that's really the same thing but could be wrong.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5143986,-0.1257199,3a,75y,341.47h,76.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSku3o5xARrkYSlQiL4M86g!2e0!7i16384!8i81920 -
Yes, and you can see how it works if you travel around on the map. You will see cars behind people in the middle of the roads. Isn't this the sort of thing that Pross was talking about?kingstongraham said:
This area, right? The one way just goes round in a circle, but yes, the design of the road and the relative volumes of pedestrians and cars makes the traffic the secondary road user, even if it hasn't removed the cues that make a road a road.TheBigBean said:
Maybe I'm wrong about that one. Neal St and others around there don't have proper pavements, and the roads do go to places although they're not very busy.kingstongraham said:
Villiers Street always struck me as just a street with lots of pedestrians on it and didn't give vehicle access to anywhere really - it had a proper pavement. They are now making it pedestrians and cycles only apart from 6:30am to 11am.TheBigBean said:
There's no curb and both have pedestrians all over them. Neal st isn't straight as well. I see the bollards as restrictions on cars not people.kingstongraham said:
Both have a pavement with bollards.TheBigBean said:
How about Villiers St or Neal St? Do they count?kingstongraham said:
Do you have a link to a street view of what one looks like?Pross said:
In the UK or anywhere?kingstongraham said:
Has this been shown to work anywhere?Pross said:
I never mentioned the size of a car. I was pointing out that it isn’t lack of road space that causes traffic jams, it is junction capacity.TheBigBean said:
Your argument was that the size of a car wasn't contributing to congestion as all congestion is at junctions, but those junctions are far more congested than they would be if cars were only the size of people.Pross said:
Maybe we should do away with give way lines, roundabouts and traffic lights - just let cars make their own way throughTheBigBean said:
Pedestrians are able to pass each other at "junctions" without so much of a delay though.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Also, it is always interesting how, when the traffic lights fail, there is never a queue. Obviously, pedestrians suffer in those cases.
I’ve actually been an advocate of removing traffic control and segregation in urban areas (in the right situations) for about 15 years. My old boss was very vocal on it and tried pushing a few schemes through but it’s impossible to get beyond the old school thinking in most highway departments (we can’t model this so you can’t demonstrate it will work etc.) and then there’s various pressure groups that deliberately misrepresent the proposals and make it emotive.
I can't imagine that it's very good for pedestrians when they are depending on drivers' goodwill to allow them space. It doesn't seem ideal when this is the system for cyclists.
Works well in Denmark and Hans Monderman’s work in Delft is the usual example.
UK examples aren’t great because of the issues I mentioned. It means that not many examples get through and those that do are heavily compromised. Poynton is probably the best example I can think of.
It looks like the nearest in London is Exhibition Road which isn't really shared at all, because they have put barriers to delimit the pavement.
Difficult to imagine it in these days of big bits of concrete to keep vehicles away from pedestrians.
These are one way streets that don't really go anywhere where there are lots of pedestrians - I don't think that's really the same thing but could be wrong.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5143986,-0.1257199,3a,75y,341.47h,76.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSku3o5xARrkYSlQiL4M86g!2e0!7i16384!8i81920 -
Also Inverness St in Camden.0
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Funny, as there is a lot of demand out here, for obvious reasons like quality of life and property prices are also relatively resilient. I'm still looking that TV series 'Escape to the Suburbs' but I can't seem to find it.rick_chasey said:
To the 'burbs and market towns, not to the countryside.focuszing723 said:
Is that true? I thought there was a mass exodus because during Covid people realised they wanted a garden. There seems to be lots of developments around rural areas where they can get land.rjsterry said:
All of the UK population growth is in urban areas and rural population continues to decline, so this is just incorrect. Countrybollox even 😀Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Wouldn't Escape to the City be a bit better? Or perhaps it is a bit mainstream.Stevo_666 said:
Funny, as there is a lot of demand out here, for obvious reasons like quality of life and property prices are also relatively resilient. I'm still looking that TV series 'Escape to the Suburbs' but I can't seem to find it.rick_chasey said:
To the 'burbs and market towns, not to the countryside.focuszing723 said:
Is that true? I thought there was a mass exodus because during Covid people realised they wanted a garden. There seems to be lots of developments around rural areas where they can get land.rjsterry said:
All of the UK population growth is in urban areas and rural population continues to decline, so this is just incorrect. Countrybollox even 😀Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues.0 -
I don't know that area, but on google maps it looks like it's a pedestrian zone now.TheBigBean said:Also Inverness St in Camden.
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Don't they call it Location Location Location?TheBigBean said:
Wouldn't Escape to the City be a bit better? Or perhaps it is a bit mainstream.Stevo_666 said:
Funny, as there is a lot of demand out here, for obvious reasons like quality of life and property prices are also relatively resilient. I'm still looking that TV series 'Escape to the Suburbs' but I can't seem to find it.rick_chasey said:
To the 'burbs and market towns, not to the countryside.focuszing723 said:
Is that true? I thought there was a mass exodus because during Covid people realised they wanted a garden. There seems to be lots of developments around rural areas where they can get land.rjsterry said:
All of the UK population growth is in urban areas and rural population continues to decline, so this is just incorrect. Countrybollox even 😀Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues.0 -
Yes, it is except for loading. My mistake.kingstongraham said:
I don't know that area, but on google maps it looks like it's a pedestrian zone now.TheBigBean said:Also Inverness St in Camden.
free image uploader
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That means no cars all day really.0
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I don't think so, but will let Pross say. There are still all the cues that say drive here, walk here.TheBigBean said:
Yes, and you can see how it works if you travel around on the map. You will see cars behind people in the middle of the roads. Isn't this the sort of thing that Pross was talking about?kingstongraham said:
This area, right? The one way just goes round in a circle, but yes, the design of the road and the relative volumes of pedestrians and cars makes the traffic the secondary road user, even if it hasn't removed the cues that make a road a road.TheBigBean said:
Maybe I'm wrong about that one. Neal St and others around there don't have proper pavements, and the roads do go to places although they're not very busy.kingstongraham said:
Villiers Street always struck me as just a street with lots of pedestrians on it and didn't give vehicle access to anywhere really - it had a proper pavement. They are now making it pedestrians and cycles only apart from 6:30am to 11am.TheBigBean said:
There's no curb and both have pedestrians all over them. Neal st isn't straight as well. I see the bollards as restrictions on cars not people.kingstongraham said:
Both have a pavement with bollards.TheBigBean said:
How about Villiers St or Neal St? Do they count?kingstongraham said:
Do you have a link to a street view of what one looks like?Pross said:
In the UK or anywhere?kingstongraham said:
Has this been shown to work anywhere?Pross said:
I never mentioned the size of a car. I was pointing out that it isn’t lack of road space that causes traffic jams, it is junction capacity.TheBigBean said:
Your argument was that the size of a car wasn't contributing to congestion as all congestion is at junctions, but those junctions are far more congested than they would be if cars were only the size of people.Pross said:
Maybe we should do away with give way lines, roundabouts and traffic lights - just let cars make their own way throughTheBigBean said:
Pedestrians are able to pass each other at "junctions" without so much of a delay though.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Also, it is always interesting how, when the traffic lights fail, there is never a queue. Obviously, pedestrians suffer in those cases.
I’ve actually been an advocate of removing traffic control and segregation in urban areas (in the right situations) for about 15 years. My old boss was very vocal on it and tried pushing a few schemes through but it’s impossible to get beyond the old school thinking in most highway departments (we can’t model this so you can’t demonstrate it will work etc.) and then there’s various pressure groups that deliberately misrepresent the proposals and make it emotive.
I can't imagine that it's very good for pedestrians when they are depending on drivers' goodwill to allow them space. It doesn't seem ideal when this is the system for cyclists.
Works well in Denmark and Hans Monderman’s work in Delft is the usual example.
UK examples aren’t great because of the issues I mentioned. It means that not many examples get through and those that do are heavily compromised. Poynton is probably the best example I can think of.
It looks like the nearest in London is Exhibition Road which isn't really shared at all, because they have put barriers to delimit the pavement.
Difficult to imagine it in these days of big bits of concrete to keep vehicles away from pedestrians.
These are one way streets that don't really go anywhere where there are lots of pedestrians - I don't think that's really the same thing but could be wrong.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5143986,-0.1257199,3a,75y,341.47h,76.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSku3o5xARrkYSlQiL4M86g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
This is vastly reduced traffic through traffic management, combined with a lot of pedestrians meaning drivers have to be very aware that there will be people in the road who might not be expecting cars. Where people are not expecting many cars, they will walk anywhere.0 -
I will have to come up with a novel spelling. Countryballs perhaps. Sure, we are unlikely to reach a 100/0 split, but there's nothing to stop the urban population continuing to grow. People are still on average moving from the country to towns for the same reasons they always have.Stevo_666 said:
As the inventor of Leftiebollox, there maybe some trademark infringement issue here. My point is there is not a massive scope to shift that split given urbanisation level as are already very high.rjsterry said:
All of the UK population growth is in urban areas and rural population continues to decline, so this is just incorrect. Countrybollox even 😀Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
New Road in Brighton was an OK example but still not the fully functioning junction layout you get in places like Drachten. The UK isn’t great for examples for the reasons I’ve mentioned previously. In a similar way to how many, myself included, have reacted to Rick’s ‘vision’ on this thread. As a nation we’re not good at changing habits it feels to me.kingstongraham said:
I don't know that area, but on google maps it looks like it's a pedestrian zone now.TheBigBean said:Also Inverness St in Camden.
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I still feel that at least part of the solution should be making more effort to move the jobs to areas where there is more scope for expansion. It can certainly work, Salford post BBC relocation is a good example. Those that refused to move as it had to remain based in London have been replaced by new talent and the area is thriving. You could probably do the same on a smaller scale around historic county towns etc. especially with modern communications and in the post-pandemic age.rjsterry said:
I will have to come up with a novel spelling. Countryballs perhaps. Sure, we are unlikely to reach a 100/0 split, but there's nothing to stop the urban population continuing to grow. People are still on average moving from the country to towns for the same reasons they always have.Stevo_666 said:
As the inventor of Leftiebollox, there maybe some trademark infringement issue here. My point is there is not a massive scope to shift that split given urbanisation level as are already very high.rjsterry said:
All of the UK population growth is in urban areas and rural population continues to decline, so this is just incorrect. Countrybollox even 😀Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues.
Most modern cities have formed around historic docks, that doesn't mean they are still the best place for 21st century business. Those who insist that the jobs have to be in London because that's where everything is are no different from those who insist they have to drive because that's the way it is.0 -
No argument with any of that but Salford was definitely already urban albeit in need of a boost.Pross said:
I still feel that at least part of the solution should be making more effort to move the jobs to areas where there is more scope for expansion. It can certainly work, Salford post BBC relocation is a good example. Those that refused to move as it had to remain based in London have been replaced by new talent and the area is thriving. You could probably do the same on a smaller scale around historic county towns etc. especially with modern communications and in the post-pandemic age.rjsterry said:
I will have to come up with a novel spelling. Countryballs perhaps. Sure, we are unlikely to reach a 100/0 split, but there's nothing to stop the urban population continuing to grow. People are still on average moving from the country to towns for the same reasons they always have.Stevo_666 said:
As the inventor of Leftiebollox, there maybe some trademark infringement issue here. My point is there is not a massive scope to shift that split given urbanisation level as are already very high.rjsterry said:
All of the UK population growth is in urban areas and rural population continues to decline, so this is just incorrect. Countrybollox even 😀Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues.
Most modern cities have formed around historic docks, that doesn't mean they are still the best place for 21st century business. Those who insist that the jobs have to be in London because that's where everything is are no different from those who insist they have to drive because that's the way it is.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
And there will also be an outward movement as people seek better quality of life etc.rjsterry said:
I will have to come up with a novel spelling. Countryballs perhaps. Sure, we are unlikely to reach a 100/0 split, but there's nothing to stop the urban population continuing to grow. People are still on average moving from the country to towns for the same reasons they always have.Stevo_666 said:
As the inventor of Leftiebollox, there maybe some trademark infringement issue here. My point is there is not a massive scope to shift that split given urbanisation level as are already very high.rjsterry said:
All of the UK population growth is in urban areas and rural population continues to decline, so this is just incorrect. Countrybollox even 😀Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues.
On a personal level I'm not too unhappy about cramming ever more people into rabbit hutch land rather than the nice bits outside of Ricktopia
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Isn't that just tourism?TheBigBean said:
Wouldn't Escape to the City be a bit better? Or perhaps it is a bit mainstream.Stevo_666 said:
Funny, as there is a lot of demand out here, for obvious reasons like quality of life and property prices are also relatively resilient. I'm still looking that TV series 'Escape to the Suburbs' but I can't seem to find it.rick_chasey said:
To the 'burbs and market towns, not to the countryside.focuszing723 said:
Is that true? I thought there was a mass exodus because during Covid people realised they wanted a garden. There seems to be lots of developments around rural areas where they can get land.rjsterry said:
All of the UK population growth is in urban areas and rural population continues to decline, so this is just incorrect. Countrybollox even 😀Stevo_666 said:
It's already been mentioned a while back that we are somewhere close to 85% urbanised already in the UK so there's not a huge amount of scope to make it more so.rick_chasey said:
To have your car parked on your drive, the house/street needs to have been designed less densely than otherwise to accommodate the space for the cars, thus being space inefficient. That all adds up.kingstongraham said:
It is not an obstruction in the manner of a collision or breakdown, it is just the way urban roads work.Pross said:
To an extent, that would come down to an obstruction. Although you can also argue it keeps vehicle speeds low in an urban environment. The bigger problem is that many drivers feel causing such inconvenience to motorists is a bad thing and it is better to park partially, or even fully, on the footway instead even when this often still means two cars can't pass.kingstongraham said:
Or cars parked on the road making it too narrow for two modern cars to pass each other.Pross said:Congestion on roads is caused by junctions not lack of road space. Away from junction the thing that causes a delay is some sort of obstruction along the lines of a collision or breakdown.
Clearly you can have a basement garage for example, but then again, that's a flat or a house that otherwise is given away to vehicles.
Space is a premium where a lot of people live and it will continue to become more sought after as the urbanisation continues."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZupwFOhjl4
