The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)

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Comments

  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,465
    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    What’s the carbon footprint for a bikeradar post?

    Anyway, in theory power consumption isn’t the problem if the power generation is renewable, right?

    The problems with cars are not really about the carbon footprint.

    I can’t repeat myself any more about that.

    If its not the carbon footprint, what's the problem?

    It's a cyclic discussion.
    With cars it’s that, for the current number of cars, there’s not enough metals in the world for batteries.

    Plus with increasing urbanisation, cars will become less and less effective at getting you where you need to be in a timely way. Because traffic.

    And then, while you’re at it, you can then come up with more space efficient and energy efficient ways to travel easily.
    Some of your arguments are environmental.
    Some are economic.
    Yup.
    So the economic arguments aren't really sustainability arguments are they. And by not really, I mean not.

    The metal source issue will become redundant in time, I reckon. My news feed includes stories about novel battery chemistries pretty much every month. I have faith.

    Can't argue with you on total energy usage though. And renewable or not, nothing comes for free.
  • Wheelspinner
    Wheelspinner Posts: 6,720
    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    First.Aspect said:

    rick_chasey said:

    What’s the carbon footprint for a bikeradar post?

    Anyway, in theory power consumption isn’t the problem if the power generation is renewable, right?

    The problems with cars are not really about the carbon footprint.

    I can’t repeat myself any more about that.

    If its not the carbon footprint, what's the problem?

    It's a cyclic discussion.
    With cars it’s that, for the current number of cars, there’s not enough metals in the world for batteries.

    Plus with increasing urbanisation, cars will become less and less effective at getting you where you need to be in a timely way. Because traffic.

    And then, while you’re at it, you can then come up with more space efficient and energy efficient ways to travel easily.
    Some of your arguments are environmental.
    Some are economic.
    Yup.
    So the economic arguments aren't really sustainability arguments are they. And by not really, I mean not.

    The metal source issue will become redundant in time, I reckon. My news feed includes stories about novel battery chemistries pretty much every month. I have faith.

    Can't argue with you on total energy usage though. And renewable or not, nothing comes for free.
    When I say sustainability I’m not being euphemistic. I mean literally sustainable.

    So sure, some arguments are not tree huggy but are economic.

    There were quite a few good specials on cars and batteries in the economist and most of the experts were sceptical about the future of batteries as a mass solution.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    _
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,183
    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    You must be trolling, you've got a car.
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,666
    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    You must be trolling, you've got a car.
    And you don't have a rocket. Checkmate.
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,674
    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    Also, unless you have an auto, driving one armed can be...tricky
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,893
    Jezyboy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    Also, unless you have an auto, driving one armed can be...tricky
    Cambridge must be rougher than I thought.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    You must be trolling, you've got a car.
    yes, we've been through this; if you have a car centric transport model, people will use cars more often.
    _
  • Wheelspinner
    Wheelspinner Posts: 6,720
    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    So? People manage to kill or maim themselves doing all kinds of things.

    UK road accident statistics are available online I see.

    For cyclists, see here:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-pedal-cyclist-factsheet-2020/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-pedal-cycle-factsheet-2020

    For cars, see here:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-annual-report-2021/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-annual-report-2021

    So, in 2019, last data pre-lockdown/COVID, shows deaths per billion KM travelled for cyclists as 29, versus 5 for cars, so about 6 times worse.

    Serious injury comparison numbers are 1194 (cycling) versus 86 for cars, nearly 14 times worse.

    Slightly injured comparison numbers are 3670 compared to 334. "Only" about 11 times worse.

    Perhaps the most surprising statistic in that data is that the second highest number of deaths while cycling - nearly 1/6th of them - was in accidents *where no other vehicles were involved*. Yikes.

    Substantially upping the total mileage for cyclists may help the stats overall, but starting from that baseline you'd have to be a little concerned about the potential risks of serious injury - like yours - in particular, never mind deaths?

    Or... who cares, just collateral damage?






    Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,953
    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Does anyone have any stats for death and injury while travelling by camel?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    So? People manage to kill or maim themselves doing all kinds of things.

    UK road accident statistics are available online I see.

    For cyclists, see here:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-pedal-cyclist-factsheet-2020/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-pedal-cycle-factsheet-2020

    For cars, see here:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-annual-report-2021/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-annual-report-2021

    So, in 2019, last data pre-lockdown/COVID, shows deaths per billion KM travelled for cyclists as 29, versus 5 for cars, so about 6 times worse.

    Serious injury comparison numbers are 1194 (cycling) versus 86 for cars, nearly 14 times worse.

    Slightly injured comparison numbers are 3670 compared to 334. "Only" about 11 times worse.

    Perhaps the most surprising statistic in that data is that the second highest number of deaths while cycling - nearly 1/6th of them - was in accidents *where no other vehicles were involved*. Yikes.

    Substantially upping the total mileage for cyclists may help the stats overall, but starting from that baseline you'd have to be a little concerned about the potential risks of serious injury - like yours - in particular, never mind deaths?

    Or... who cares, just collateral damage?






    To be clear, your objection to pushing cycling as a better alternative to car driving, by providing better more bike orientated infrastructure, is safety?
    _
  • Wheelspinner
    Wheelspinner Posts: 6,720
    Nope, no objection at all. Make your own safety.

    As the policy maker, will you be comfortable with an increase in deaths and injuries as a direct outcome from your recommendations?




    Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Wheelspinner said:

    Nope, no objection at all. Make your own safety.

    As the policy maker, will you be comfortable with an increase in deaths and injuries as a direct outcome from your recommendations?




    i don't think there would be.
    _
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,931
    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    Nope, no objection at all. Make your own safety.

    As the policy maker, will you be comfortable with an increase in deaths and injuries as a direct outcome from your recommendations?




    i don't think there would be.

    Amsterdam would appear to give you some ammunition.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-26/u-s-lessons-from-the-dutch-traffic-safety-revolution
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • Wheelspinner
    Wheelspinner Posts: 6,720
    briantrumpet said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    Nope, no objection at all. Make your own safety.

    As the policy maker, will you be comfortable with an increase in deaths and injuries as a direct outcome from your recommendations?




    i don't think there would be.

    Amsterdam would appear to give you some ammunition.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-26/u-s-lessons-from-the-dutch-traffic-safety-revolution

    Ok, you're in charge.


    And yet, Netherlands death rate for cyclists per billion KM Travelled - while much lower than the UK Statistic (~ 12.5, compared to UK value of 29) - is still more than double the death rate per billion km travelled for people in cars in the UK.

    Combo stats from

    https://opendata.cbs.nl/#/CBS/en/dataset/84687ENG/table?ts=1676554287942

    and

    https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2021/15/610-traffic-deaths-in-2020

    Perhaps interesting, perhaps not.. the statistics for Netherlands deaths in cars is actually way way way better than the UK. 2019 data shows 237 car deaths for about 219 billion km, or 1.1 death per billion km as opposed to 5 in the UK. Even including the other categories the stats for deaths in vehicles of any sort are very substantially lower than the UK.

    Netherlands are clearly better drivers and cyclists than the UK, or the infrastructure is better, or both. But fact still is that cycling is significantly MORE likely to result in death that being in a car.

    Just numbers, right?




    Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,682
    Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that the vast majority of cyclist fatalities involve a motor vehicle? If you took motor vehicles off the road completely then cyclist deaths would probably be in single figures. Of course car driver / passenger deaths would still be zero so cycling would still be less safe on that metric.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,931
    It's also ignoring the fact that by their very nature bike journeys are shorter. If you rejig the figures for deaths *per journey*, then bike fare much much better. It also ignores the fact that car drivers and passengers are cocooned from the destruction they wreak outside: modern safety features (amazing as they are) do little to prevent serious injury and death to those outside the cocoon.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,183
    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    You must be trolling, you've got a car.
    yes, we've been through this; if you have a car centric transport model, people will use cars more often.
    You can't start a transport utopia without leading by example though. You shouldn't be able to have a view on the subject until you ride tandem, surely?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    You must be trolling, you've got a car.
    yes, we've been through this; if you have a car centric transport model, people will use cars more often.
    You can't start a transport utopia without leading by example though. You shouldn't be able to have a view on the subject until you ride tandem, surely?
    It's about the system, and how we need to adjust for a future where mass car ownership can't be relied upon, like it currently is.

    It's not a crusade against cars. It's a recognition mass private cars will eventually not be available and so we'll have to change the infrastructure aroubd travel to adjust.
    _
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,183
    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    You must be trolling, you've got a car.
    yes, we've been through this; if you have a car centric transport model, people will use cars more often.
    You can't start a transport utopia without leading by example though. You shouldn't be able to have a view on the subject until you ride tandem, surely?
    It's about the system, and how we need to adjust for a future where mass car ownership can't be relied upon, like it currently is.

    It's not a crusade against cars. It's a recognition mass private cars will eventually not be available and so we'll have to change the infrastructure aroubd travel to adjust.
    Nothing will change then until demand stops or technology evolves.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    You must be trolling, you've got a car.
    yes, we've been through this; if you have a car centric transport model, people will use cars more often.
    You can't start a transport utopia without leading by example though. You shouldn't be able to have a view on the subject until you ride tandem, surely?
    It's about the system, and how we need to adjust for a future where mass car ownership can't be relied upon, like it currently is.

    It's not a crusade against cars. It's a recognition mass private cars will eventually not be available and so we'll have to change the infrastructure aroubd travel to adjust.
    Nothing will change then until demand stops or technology evolves.
    Too late then.
    _
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,931
    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    You must be trolling, you've got a car.
    yes, we've been through this; if you have a car centric transport model, people will use cars more often.
    You can't start a transport utopia without leading by example though. You shouldn't be able to have a view on the subject until you ride tandem, surely?
    It's about the system, and how we need to adjust for a future where mass car ownership can't be relied upon, like it currently is.

    It's not a crusade against cars. It's a recognition mass private cars will eventually not be available and so we'll have to change the infrastructure aroubd travel to adjust.
    Nothing will change then until demand stops or technology evolves.

    Explain Amsterdam or Copenhagen then. It's changed there, I think you'll find. And it's changing in London.

    At the risk of being confused with RC, I'm utterly in favour of carrots and sticks to utterly change town/city travel, both within and between, but think that countryside solutions will necessarily rely on some sort of small, motor-driven solution for some time yet (let's call them 'cars'), even if the ownership and utilisation evolve dramatically in time.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,893
    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    You must be trolling, you've got a car.
    yes, we've been through this; if you have a car centric transport model, people will use cars more often.
    You can't start a transport utopia without leading by example though. You shouldn't be able to have a view on the subject until you ride tandem, surely?
    So when will you be buying a social media platform? Or making your first launch?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,593
    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    You must be trolling, you've got a car.
    yes, we've been through this; if you have a car centric transport model, people will use cars more often.
    You can't start a transport utopia without leading by example though. You shouldn't be able to have a view on the subject until you ride tandem, surely?
    It's about the system, and how we need to adjust for a future where mass car ownership can't be relied upon, like it currently is.

    It's not a crusade against cars. It's a recognition mass private cars will eventually not be available and so we'll have to change the infrastructure aroubd travel to adjust.
    Nothing will change then until demand stops or technology evolves.
    Too late then.
    Cyclists use the roads that the cars are no longer on.
    Fairly simple, no?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    pblakeney said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    You must be trolling, you've got a car.
    yes, we've been through this; if you have a car centric transport model, people will use cars more often.
    You can't start a transport utopia without leading by example though. You shouldn't be able to have a view on the subject until you ride tandem, surely?
    It's about the system, and how we need to adjust for a future where mass car ownership can't be relied upon, like it currently is.

    It's not a crusade against cars. It's a recognition mass private cars will eventually not be available and so we'll have to change the infrastructure aroubd travel to adjust.
    Nothing will change then until demand stops or technology evolves.
    Too late then.
    Cyclists use the roads that the cars are no longer on.
    Fairly simple, no?
    That's fine for shorter journeys.
    _
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,666
    Pross said:

    Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that the vast majority of cyclist fatalities involve a motor vehicle? If you took motor vehicles off the road completely then cyclist deaths would probably be in single figures. Of course car driver / passenger deaths would still be zero so cycling would still be less safe on that metric.

    Yes, they are.
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,682
    briantrumpet said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    focuszing723 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Wheelspinner said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Every picture you've ever taken on your phone and have stored on the cloud is using up energy every second of every day.

    There was a programme on the BBC about all this the other week.

    Doesn’t matter to Rick as long as the cloud servers run on renewable energy (at 100% efficiency, obviously) then there’s no problem, right ?
    Sure.

    I’m making a point about transport systems though, not the sustainability of computing?

    I can list a bunch of other things that have an impact on the world I haven’t mentioned if that makes you feel better?
    No, we can all do that, which is kinda relevant when you are arguing for mass behavioural changes.

    Back on topic, how do you feel now about your plan to have all of Britain use an e-bike for short journeys to and from PT connections? Does the crash and subsequent broken shoulder give you pause for thought that perhaps it may not work as well as you’d hoped?

    I am genuinely not trying to trivialise your injury - I’ve no doubt it’s been painful, and somewhat (ahem) inconvenient. Apologies if it comes across that way, but I’m not famous for tact or subtlety.
    As opposed to what, cars?
    No.

    Camels.


    Plenty of people die and are seriously hurt in car accidents. Plus there are fewer health gains from driving vs cycling, plus the collective health impact of pollution is worse with cars too.
    You must be trolling, you've got a car.
    yes, we've been through this; if you have a car centric transport model, people will use cars more often.
    You can't start a transport utopia without leading by example though. You shouldn't be able to have a view on the subject until you ride tandem, surely?
    It's about the system, and how we need to adjust for a future where mass car ownership can't be relied upon, like it currently is.

    It's not a crusade against cars. It's a recognition mass private cars will eventually not be available and so we'll have to change the infrastructure aroubd travel to adjust.
    Nothing will change then until demand stops or technology evolves.

    Explain Amsterdam or Copenhagen then. It's changed there, I think you'll find. And it's changing in London.

    At the risk of being confused with RC, I'm utterly in favour of carrots and sticks to utterly change town/city travel, both within and between, but think that countryside solutions will necessarily rely on some sort of small, motor-driven solution for some time yet (let's call them 'cars'), even if the ownership and utilisation evolve dramatically in time.
    As we used to get told when looking to promote shared surface schemes 'but they're different to us'. I assume this is different in a good way as they seem to be more prepared to change their ways.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,682
    Although, to be fair, one reaction to being shown a fairly successful scheme in Brighton was 'but that's Brighton, they're a bit strange'.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,079
    So who has now given up their car having heard all the persuasive arguments?

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