The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)

First.Aspect

Half the problem with the cost of cars is that people seem to want huge tall cars. They need lots of materials to build them and big batteries. They also need big parking places.

The only size restriction I personally want is for a car to be long enough to legally transport a single scull. That aside, smaller is better. Particularly in cities.

Policy could help there too, in terms of taxation.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

rick_chasey said:

✌🏻✌🏻

https://twitter.com/asluhn/status/1617821997265989632?s=46&t=VWQydfHiszvjqjFCErCDBw

I just don't get the thing with big cars at all. And especially with EVs, it's nuts.

Economics is a factor:
https://thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-11665917/Kia-boss-Cheap-small-electric-cars-not-viable-high-battery-costs.html

If we stick to 2030 for banning ICE cars this could see a lot of people priced out of new cars. Every cloud etc...

Thanks, though from the energy-efficiency POV it's still nuts to justify the cost of the battery by sticking it in an expensive (and heavy) car.

Per the article, the main reason for the high cost of these cars is the battery.

Indeed, but that's letting economics trump energy efficiency, which is the point I'm trying to make.

I see your point but if people can't afford to buy them that's a big problem.

Yup, though in my case I'd go car club.

Good luck with that out in the sticks.

Maybe there's room for creative thinking and small-scale car sharing in such places, under the umbrella of some techy enabling umbrella organisation. It's not beyond the wit of man or woman, given how apps have made so many things possible. I've been genuinely surprised at the rapid roll-out and expansion of CoCars, CoVans, and CoBikes in Exeter, so it does give hope for the future for creative solutions in shared ownership.

If you worked out what percentage of time the average car spent parked up slowly decomposing, it would be rather low, I think. And you could use dynamic pricing to encourage people to plan to drive at less popular times, etc.

I think you'll, find that a lot of people still find the idea of being in a car club that's exclusive to them or their family as being very attractive and convenient.

I'm happy to pay for my car to be available as and when I want it, a very short distance from my doorstep and not having to share it with a bunch of randoms. Just as importantly, it's the car that I want to drive - not some bland eco box chosen by someone else. That just wouldn't cut it for me. Cars are personal choice suited to the individual and a lot of people enjoy them. This are points that seem to be lost on quite a few people on the other side of the debate.

Pross

The ideal situation to my mind would be to extend Rick's utopia of a world class public transport (train, bus LRT as appropriate - everyone seems to focus on trains for some reason) but then have widely available car clubs where you can easily hire a vehicle for those journeys that remain impractical by public transport, this would be an addition to Rick's ebikes as they wouldn't cover all eventualities. To stop this being abused by people continuing to make journeys using the hire vehicle you could have mileage bands where, for example, the first 500 miles a year is dirt cheap and it rises the more miles you do. For the messier journeys such as taking the dog somewhere, going off mountain biking or bringing the infamous Christmas tree home you would pay a cleaning deposit returned if the car comes back in the condition it left. Have a range of vehicle sizes so that you can get something suitable for the journey. Probably not great for the car manufacturing industry but they'll be able to make mass transit vehicles instead.

As a lot of vehicles spend the vast majority of their time parked up on a drive or street this would drastically reduce the actual number of vehicles needed and the natural resources required in their production.

Pross

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

rick_chasey said:

✌🏻✌🏻

https://twitter.com/asluhn/status/1617821997265989632?s=46&t=VWQydfHiszvjqjFCErCDBw

I just don't get the thing with big cars at all. And especially with EVs, it's nuts.

Economics is a factor:
https://thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-11665917/Kia-boss-Cheap-small-electric-cars-not-viable-high-battery-costs.html

If we stick to 2030 for banning ICE cars this could see a lot of people priced out of new cars. Every cloud etc...

Thanks, though from the energy-efficiency POV it's still nuts to justify the cost of the battery by sticking it in an expensive (and heavy) car.

Per the article, the main reason for the high cost of these cars is the battery.

Indeed, but that's letting economics trump energy efficiency, which is the point I'm trying to make.

I see your point but if people can't afford to buy them that's a big problem.

Yup, though in my case I'd go car club.

Good luck with that out in the sticks.

Maybe there's room for creative thinking and small-scale car sharing in such places, under the umbrella of some techy enabling umbrella organisation. It's not beyond the wit of man or woman, given how apps have made so many things possible. I've been genuinely surprised at the rapid roll-out and expansion of CoCars, CoVans, and CoBikes in Exeter, so it does give hope for the future for creative solutions in shared ownership.

If you worked out what percentage of time the average car spent parked up slowly decomposing, it would be rather low, I think. And you could use dynamic pricing to encourage people to plan to drive at less popular times, etc.

Ha, only just saw this response. Seems like we're on the same wavelength.

There'll always be a few like Stevo that won't give up their 'right' to have a car sitting doing nothing most of the time but you could then penalise them to help financially support the car schemes.

davebradswmb

Stevo_666 said:

Its your proposal, you explain it to me. Then I can comment on it.

I understood it, either you are being deliberately obtuse (What! not Stevo surely!) or your'e just thick.

katani

Dorset_Boy said:

I have been wondering whether the cable from charger to car can be locked in at each end, because otherwise, after a drunken night out, they will be unplugged.

Anyone in the know?

The mechanism that locks/unlocks the cable in in the charging ports is synchronized with the door locks on my car. Once the doors are locked there is no way to unplug the cable on either end.

Pross

katani said:

Dorset_Boy said:

I have been wondering whether the cable from charger to car can be locked in at each end, because otherwise, after a drunken night out, they will be unplugged.

Anyone in the know?

The mechanism that locks/unlocks the cable in in the charging ports is synchronized with the door locks on my car. Once the doors are locked there is no way to unplug the cable on either end.

That's useful to know, I always wondered how people avoided 'practical jokers'.

Pross

I assume there is also something that prevents the car driving off before it has been disconnected? I know it sounds unlikely that anyone is stupid enough to do that but I once saw someone start towing their horse trailer whilst the wheel lock was still in place on the trailer.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

rick_chasey said:

✌🏻✌🏻

https://twitter.com/asluhn/status/1617821997265989632?s=46&t=VWQydfHiszvjqjFCErCDBw

I just don't get the thing with big cars at all. And especially with EVs, it's nuts.

Economics is a factor:
https://thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-11665917/Kia-boss-Cheap-small-electric-cars-not-viable-high-battery-costs.html

If we stick to 2030 for banning ICE cars this could see a lot of people priced out of new cars. Every cloud etc...

Thanks, though from the energy-efficiency POV it's still nuts to justify the cost of the battery by sticking it in an expensive (and heavy) car.

Per the article, the main reason for the high cost of these cars is the battery.

Indeed, but that's letting economics trump energy efficiency, which is the point I'm trying to make.

I see your point but if people can't afford to buy them that's a big problem.

Yup, though in my case I'd go car club.

Good luck with that out in the sticks.

Maybe there's room for creative thinking and small-scale car sharing in such places, under the umbrella of some techy enabling umbrella organisation. It's not beyond the wit of man or woman, given how apps have made so many things possible. I've been genuinely surprised at the rapid roll-out and expansion of CoCars, CoVans, and CoBikes in Exeter, so it does give hope for the future for creative solutions in shared ownership.

If you worked out what percentage of time the average car spent parked up slowly decomposing, it would be rather low, I think. And you could use dynamic pricing to encourage people to plan to drive at less popular times, etc.

I think you'll, find that a lot of people still find the idea of being in a car club that's exclusive to them or their family as being very attractive and convenient.

I'm happy to pay for my car to be available as and when I want it, a very short distance from my doorstep and not having to share it with a bunch of randoms. Just as importantly, it's the car that I want to drive - not some bland eco box chosen by someone else. That just wouldn't cut it for me. Cars are personal choice suited to the individual and a lot of people enjoy them. This are points that seem to be lost on quite a few people on the other side of the debate.

I'm sure there will be a few diehard petrolheads just as there are steam enthusiasts now, but this does sound a bit like all those people who dismissed the internet as a fad.

First.Aspect

Pross said:

I assume there is also something that prevents the car driving off before it has been disconnected? I know it sounds unlikely that anyone is stupid enough to do that but I once saw someone start towing their horse trailer whilst the wheel lock was still in place on the trailer.

Dangling fuel filler hoses aren't completely unknown.

rjsterry

The bit I find slightly depress

Pross said:

I assume there is also something that prevents the car driving off before it has been disconnected? I know it sounds unlikely that anyone is stupid enough to do that but I once saw someone start towing their horse trailer whilst the wheel lock was still in place on the trailer.

No that sounds like exactly the sort of thing that needs to be designed out. Also preventing people from trying to charge their car through a string of extension leads.

DeVlaeminck

pblakeney said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rick_chasey said:

There are good reasons why the regulators across the west have put in these time lines for fossil fuel cars, right?

But similarly, the battery powered car is not going to be able to replace the fossil fuel car effectively.

So what's the solution?

One partial solution could be to impose strict energy use limits on vehicles. If they can make a 5 seater that averages, for example, 60mpg why do we allow private cars which average 40mpg - or whatever the equivalent is for electric vehicles. Of course this is only a partial solution but partial is better than none.

You then end up in BMW i8 territory.
Theoretical mpg = 134.5. Real life mpg = 50.


That is surely an issue with the testing ? It should be possible to have a test that reflects real life reasonably well.

First.Aspect

DeVlaeminck said:

pblakeney said:

DeVlaeminck said:

rick_chasey said:

There are good reasons why the regulators across the west have put in these time lines for fossil fuel cars, right?

But similarly, the battery powered car is not going to be able to replace the fossil fuel car effectively.

So what's the solution?

One partial solution could be to impose strict energy use limits on vehicles. If they can make a 5 seater that averages, for example, 60mpg why do we allow private cars which average 40mpg - or whatever the equivalent is for electric vehicles. Of course this is only a partial solution but partial is better than none.

You then end up in BMW i8 territory.
Theoretical mpg = 134.5. Real life mpg = 50.

That is surely an issue with the testing ? It should be possible to have a test that reflects real life reasonably well.
Yup, it's called driving.

Stevo_666

davebradswmb said:

Stevo_666 said:

Its your proposal, you explain it to me. Then I can comment on it.

I understood it, either you are being deliberately obtuse (What! not Stevo surely!) or your'e just thick.

If you can't understand a simple request like that then it's not me who's thick...

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

rick_chasey said:

✌🏻✌🏻

https://twitter.com/asluhn/status/1617821997265989632?s=46&t=VWQydfHiszvjqjFCErCDBw

I just don't get the thing with big cars at all. And especially with EVs, it's nuts.

Economics is a factor:
https://thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-11665917/Kia-boss-Cheap-small-electric-cars-not-viable-high-battery-costs.html

If we stick to 2030 for banning ICE cars this could see a lot of people priced out of new cars. Every cloud etc...

Thanks, though from the energy-efficiency POV it's still nuts to justify the cost of the battery by sticking it in an expensive (and heavy) car.

Per the article, the main reason for the high cost of these cars is the battery.

Indeed, but that's letting economics trump energy efficiency, which is the point I'm trying to make.

I see your point but if people can't afford to buy them that's a big problem.

Yup, though in my case I'd go car club.

Good luck with that out in the sticks.

Maybe there's room for creative thinking and small-scale car sharing in such places, under the umbrella of some techy enabling umbrella organisation. It's not beyond the wit of man or woman, given how apps have made so many things possible. I've been genuinely surprised at the rapid roll-out and expansion of CoCars, CoVans, and CoBikes in Exeter, so it does give hope for the future for creative solutions in shared ownership.

If you worked out what percentage of time the average car spent parked up slowly decomposing, it would be rather low, I think. And you could use dynamic pricing to encourage people to plan to drive at less popular times, etc.

I think you'll, find that a lot of people still find the idea of being in a car club that's exclusive to them or their family as being very attractive and convenient.

I'm happy to pay for my car to be available as and when I want it, a very short distance from my doorstep and not having to share it with a bunch of randoms. Just as importantly, it's the car that I want to drive - not some bland eco box chosen by someone else. That just wouldn't cut it for me. Cars are personal choice suited to the individual and a lot of people enjoy them. This are points that seem to be lost on quite a few people on the other side of the debate.

I'm sure there will be a few diehard petrolheads just as there are steam enthusiasts now, but this does sound a bit like all those people who dismissed the internet as a fad.

I think you'll find its much more than just a few diehard petrol heads. Some of the views on this thread are very much in the minority.

davebradswmb

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

I'm sure there will be a few diehard petrolheads just as there are steam enthusiasts now, but this does sound a bit like all those people who dismissed the internet as a fad.

I think you'll find its much more than just a few diehard petrol heads. Some of the views on this thread are very much in the minority.

But that is a result of years of prioritising personal motor vehicles over any other kind of transport solution, few people can envisage an acceptable alternative. I would guess that if there is a similar question asked on a Dutch forum the views would be far from a minority.

rjsterry

My point was more that mass car ownership is a relatively new phenomenon: 60-70years, and that is largely because manufacturing and fuel was cheap for most of that. I don't think those conditions will persist.

First.Aspect

What is Dutch car ownership like compared to here?

This is a bit out of date but makes interesting reading. You would expect car ownership in a flat more densely populated country with better public transport and active travel infrastructure, and a better climate, to be lower wouldn't you?

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Transport/Road/Motor-vehicles-per-1000-people

Does the UK/NL comparison challenge anyone's notions that cars as a possession are a problem as such? Or does it suggest the issue is a lack of alternatives to how they are used?

briantrumpet

Even addictive habits can change relatively quickly when the costs, both monetarily and health-wise, are perceived as being too great.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_in_the_United_Kingdom

Pross

rjsterry said:

My point was more that mass car ownership is a relatively new phenomenon: 60-70years, and that is largely because manufacturing and fuel was cheap for most of that. I don't think those conditions will persist.

I don't think it is even that long ago. In the late 70s / early 80s I could easily play games in the street and anyone who did have a car could easily park on the street outside their house. It is now parked up on both sides wherever there are no driveways with cars partially on the footway and just enough width for one vehicle to get between them. I don't think I was unique in primary school having no car and parents who couldn't drive (although certainly in a minority). However, hardly anyone had more than one car per household. That is probably as good a place as any to start in reduce the physical number of cars out there (we briefly had 5 cars when my daughter's boyfriend was living with us although luckily 3 could fit on the drive).

First.Aspect

So, no then.

rjsterry

This just popped up on my Chrome suggestions.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/consumer-news/85083/end-anti-pollution-60mph-motorway-speed-limits-say-campaigners?amp

...

photonic69

The future is Hydrogen and not electric, or maybe a combination of both. Fuel cells plus battery backups. Far more convenient and you can fill up in a few minutes. Easier to store/produce hydrogen at times when there is less demand on the grid (night time etc), OK solar is out but windfarms etc.
The trouble is that demand for energy across the board becomes higher and higher and more expensive. Homes requiring more electricity to operate heat pumps is one. We will suffer from "energy anxiety" instead of "range anxiety". We might also see transport poverty where people that cannot afford the new hydrogen/electric cars are stuck with older ICE cars and fuel stations becoming few and far between meaning you might have to travel 15-20 miles to fill up. Also likely to be heavily taxed to reduce use.
Meh, whatever way you look at it, the future looks shite!

First.Aspect

rjsterry said:

This just popped up on my Chrome suggestions.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/consumer-news/85083/end-anti-pollution-60mph-motorway-speed-limits-say-campaigners?amp

...

You arent call Rick so im afraid you do need to comment. Those are the rules. What are your thoughts?

(Obviously we can ignore the claptrap about brake dust and tyres, and stick yo exhaust emissions, both those relevant to public health and climate change.

mully79

One problem with company electric cars is how to accurately charge your company for electricity charged at home. Probably why people prefer to use public chargers.

pblakeney

photonic69 said:

The future is Hydrogen and not electric, or maybe a combination of both. Fuel cells plus battery backups. Far more convenient and you can fill up in a few minutes. Easier to store/produce hydrogen at times when there is less demand on the grid (night time etc), OK solar is out but windfarms etc.
The trouble is that demand for energy across the board becomes higher and higher and more expensive. Homes requiring more electricity to operate heat pumps is one. We will suffer from "energy anxiety" instead of "range anxiety". We might also see transport poverty where people that cannot afford the new hydrogen/electric cars are stuck with older ICE cars and fuel stations becoming few and far between meaning you might have to travel 15-20 miles to fill up. Also likely to be heavily taxed to reduce use.
Meh, whatever way you look at it, the future looks shite!

A slight deviation if you don't mind. How were people's heat pumps coping during the cold spell? I read anecdotal horror stories.

First.Aspect

My brother in law, who is in supported living, has one. So he enjoys luke warm showers, and an expensive pressurised boiler that frequently leaks and avoids the luke warm issue entirely. Also tends to help to stop his flat from being too dry inside.

I have no idea why it is so bad, but makes me want to hang on to my 1990s oil fired boiler.

pblakeney

First.Aspect said:

My brother in law, who is in supported living, has one. So he enjoys luke warm showers, and an expensive pressurised boiler that frequently leaks and avoids the luke warm issue entirely. Also tends to help to stop his flat from being too dry inside.

I have no idea why it is so bad, but makes me want to hang on to my 1990s oil fired boiler.

My thinking exactly. Except gas boiler fitted @ 2014.

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

This just popped up on my Chrome suggestions.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/consumer-news/85083/end-anti-pollution-60mph-motorway-speed-limits-say-campaigners?amp

...

You arent call Rick so im afraid you do need to comment. Those are the rules. What are your thoughts?

(Obviously we can ignore the claptrap about brake dust and tyres, and stick yo exhaust emissions, both those relevant to public health and climate change.

I think the basic point about publishing the findings of the trial are valid. Otherwise it's two sides just shouting at each other. Agree that there shouldn't be any additional brake dust because people are doing 60 rather than 70.

Dorset_Boy

pblakeney said:

photonic69 said:

The future is Hydrogen and not electric, or maybe a combination of both. Fuel cells plus battery backups. Far more convenient and you can fill up in a few minutes. Easier to store/produce hydrogen at times when there is less demand on the grid (night time etc), OK solar is out but windfarms etc.
The trouble is that demand for energy across the board becomes higher and higher and more expensive. Homes requiring more electricity to operate heat pumps is one. We will suffer from "energy anxiety" instead of "range anxiety". We might also see transport poverty where people that cannot afford the new hydrogen/electric cars are stuck with older ICE cars and fuel stations becoming few and far between meaning you might have to travel 15-20 miles to fill up. Also likely to be heavily taxed to reduce use.
Meh, whatever way you look at it, the future looks shite!

A slight deviation if you don't mind. How were people's heat pumps coping during the cold spell? I read anecdotal horror stories.

Ours works absolutely fine during the cold, BUT, it uses a lot of electricity! £16-20 per day depending on what else has been used. (Ours is an 1850s (with extensions) end of terrace cottage.)