The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)

focuszing723

Electric Brompton.

focuszing723

First.Aspect

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

... or his current bike.

Depends how far I guess. And we know he's faster than anyone here, so I guess that's the answer.

pblakeney

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

Currently £94.40 each way.
And that sums up what is wrong with this country.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

2 adults 1 child, yup.

webboo

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

Currently £94.40 each way.
And that sums up what is wrong with this country.

If you go today it’s 22 quid.

First.Aspect

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

Currently £94.40 each way.
And that sums up what is wrong with this country.

That I agree with.

First.Aspect

On the plus side, driving and getting public transport plus cycling to my house takes about the same time as well RC.

Milk and sugar?

pblakeney

webboo said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

Currently £94.40 each way.
And that sums up what is wrong with this country.

If you go today it’s 22 quid.

First.Aspect

webboo said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

Currently £94.40 each way.
And that sums up what is wrong with this country.

If you go today it’s 22 quid.

It should be just the price it is though, rather than make people play the "can we work out rail pricing" game and pay anywhere between two vastly different prices.

webboo

pblakeney said:

webboo said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

Currently £94.40 each way.
And that sums up what is wrong with this country.

If you go today it’s 22 quid.

My mistake. It’s the other way that’s £22 York to Cambridge.

First.Aspect

webboo said:

pblakeney said:

webboo said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

Currently £94.40 each way.
And that sums up what is wrong with this country.

If you go today it’s 22 quid.

My mistake. It’s the other way that’s £22 York to Cambridge.

Yes that's right because that's into a headwind and should be 350% more expensive.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

2 adults 1 child, yup.

With a friends and family card?

pangolin

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

2 adults 1 child, yup.

With a friends and family card?

Rick's not friends with his family.

rick_chasey

I genuinely didn't know that existed.

As per previous discussion, I haven't used the train much as a family beyond day-trips to places like Ely, where it's less than a £5er per person.

shirley_basso

Your poor family....

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

I genuinely didn't know that existed.

As per previous discussion, I haven't used the train much as a family beyond day-trips to places like Ely, where it's less than a £5er per person.

Silly thing about it is an adult + child is cheaper than an adult without a card. Last weekend, I bought my under 5 a ticket and a seat to save money.

TheBigBean

I did go to the countryside on a train though. Do I win some points? Or do I lose them by getting picked up in a car?

pblakeney

webboo said:

pblakeney said:

webboo said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

Currently £94.40 each way.
And that sums up what is wrong with this country.

If you go today it’s 22 quid.

My mistake. It’s the other way that’s £22 York to Cambridge.

Again, that sums up what is wrong with this country.

First.Aspect

TheBigBean said:

I did go to the countryside on a train though. Do I win some points? Or do I lose them by getting picked up in a car?

It's okay. We know that you'd have used an ebike if there wasn't luggage taking up the rack on the train.

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

Family railcard gets it down to £144 for 2+1. Might be able to do some clever split ticketing but having to go via KX for almost all options will make this tricky.

First.Aspect

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

Family railcard gets it down to £144 for 2+1. Might be able to do some clever split ticketing but having to go via KX for almost all options will make this tricky.

And driving is £70 give or take, plus costs of car ownership. Let's say he's going for a week, because it's a long way to go after all, and we plug some clickbait car ownership costs off the Internet at £280 a month.

Is it all that much different?

If we say no, they are about £140 each, why don't people take public transport?

And if cost and time isn't enough, what is?

Pross

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

I mean, in a system without cars the public transport would be remarkably different.

You’re not really making the right comparison.

Criticising me for using a car in a car centric system, when that is the complaint, is stupid.

“Oh you’re not using the public transport in a car oriented system?” Ja duh

There will never be direct public transport between all the mutitudinous small towns in the UK, like Cambridge, or between pretty much any conurbation and rural Yorkshire or rural anywhere.

What you do have for the exemplary journey already is about as direct and fast as it will ever be.

Setting costs aside, is that not good enough for you?

Because if it isn't, the other option is a network of transport conduits, let's called them roads, that allow more resolution in journey selection.

We could have public transport on them, obviously, and to address the problems of very low passenger numbers on some routes, instead of large vehicles, we could have smaller vehicles for some journeys....

You see where I'm going with this.

If you take cost out of the equation what would prevent a similar system being used to how roads have evolved where you have a series of spokes leading to a central hub and then main routes linking the central hubs? Not many people drive from Yorkshire to London on a series of minor roads, they drive to the nearest main road then take that to the nearest motorway junction. It's how rail used to be work but it doesn't even have to be rail. You could have electric people carriers / minibuses / buses suitable for the catchment on the outer reaches. I don't think we can realistically do away with private cars (or some other mode of personal motorised transport) completely as Rick was originally suggesting as people will still want to go from the end of one spoke to the end of another without detouring to the hub but it should certainly be possible to drastically reduce the number of journeys undertaken that way usingh a combination of a carrot and stick.

I still think the other part of the puzzle that Rick doesn't seem so keen on is to maximise technology to minimise the amount of journeys that are required at all e.g. 'having' to have an office base in London or 'having' to attend face-to-face meetings at a posh restaurant. If people want radical solutions to solve the problem they need to also accept those they don't like themselves. New development and planning rules should be focussed on liveable communities where people have everything they need on a daily basis within a walkable distance.

pangolin

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...
Public transport links can be improved I agree. And setting aside that making them more distributed and less based on hubs goes against what you were arguing earlier, perhaps this could be to the threshold of linking smaller places like Cambridge to York directly or at least not via London.
...

This is an interesting example. A quick Google gives the current following times for Cambridge to York. Car = 2 hours 55 minutes. Train = 2 hours 38 minutes.

There you go. But he's still got to get to somewhere outside of York, so he will probably need to find someone with a horse he can borrow.

Would it really cost £160?

Family railcard gets it down to £144 for 2+1. Might be able to do some clever split ticketing but having to go via KX for almost all options will make this tricky.

And driving is £70 give or take, plus costs of car ownership. Let's say he's going for a week, because it's a long way to go after all, and we plug some clickbait car ownership costs off the Internet at £280 a month.

Is it all that much different?

If we say no, they are about £140 each, why don't people take public transport?

And if cost and time isn't enough, what is?

It's only quicker door to door because you are assuming he lives in and is visiting a train station.

TheBigBean

First.Aspect said:

TheBigBean said:

I did go to the countryside on a train though. Do I win some points? Or do I lose them by getting picked up in a car?

It's okay. We know that you'd have used an ebike if there wasn't luggage taking up the rack on the train.

If it was easy to rent one then I probably could have done that.

Pross

Why are people back to arguing about travelling by public transport with the shit system with have in place at the moment?

First.Aspect

TheBigBean said:

First.Aspect said:

TheBigBean said:

I did go to the countryside on a train though. Do I win some points? Or do I lose them by getting picked up in a car?

It's okay. We know that you'd have used an ebike if there wasn't luggage taking up the rack on the train.

If it was easy to rent one then I probably could have done that.

We would need to include downloading the app, adding your card details, and calling the help line so you can unlock and pay for it, to the journey time.

First.Aspect

Pross said:

Why are people back to arguing about travelling by public transport with the censored system with have in place at the moment?

For the hypothetical trip to Yorkshire, it actually seems pretty good and cost competitive to me. I'm sure wrestling luggage, bikes and a child on and off a couple of trains isn't hard.

So I'm persuaded that this is just one of those trips that should and can be done just as well without a car.

TheBigBean

Pross said:

Why are people back to arguing about travelling by public transport with the censored system with have in place at the moment?

I think the thread can be summarised as follows:

- Rick thinks that public transport should be better and then everyone can give up their cars
- Some people think that they need to buy christmas trees and toilet paper, so a car is necessary for every journey,
- Other people think that Rick would choose a car over public transport even when public transport is available and isn't too bad hence arguments about the existing system.

Where I grew up, people would choose to drive for 30 mins rather than take one of the three trains an hour that only took 10 mins and cost a similar amount to the parking charge. There was always an excuse. Therefore, I don't think improving public transport will change some people's views.

TheBigBean

First.Aspect said:

TheBigBean said:

First.Aspect said:

TheBigBean said:

I did go to the countryside on a train though. Do I win some points? Or do I lose them by getting picked up in a car?

It's okay. We know that you'd have used an ebike if there wasn't luggage taking up the rack on the train.

If it was easy to rent one then I probably could have done that.

We would need to include downloading the app, adding your card details, and calling the help line so you can unlock and pay for it, to the journey time.

You could do that on your train journey. It's one of the advantages of public transport.