The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)
Comments
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It’d help if in the rare moments they actually fork out for cycle infrastructure that they don’t do a sh!t job.
£24m for one long bike path no way would I cycle on it.0 -
A Tory MP gets rinsed for making the 'blanket' claim, with what appears to be a lot of people who actually drive in Wales suggesting that this blanket is more than a little threadbare.
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Surely there's a petition that Stevo can sign... at least this one's in his own country.
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KG claimed traffic had not increased outside his LTN so he needs to support that claim.rjsterry said:
You've not presented any data to support the idea that LTNs increase traffic around their perimeters. It's often stated but have never seen anything to back it up beyond 'where do those vehicles go?'. I mean half the point of them is that people make fewer car journeys because it's quicker and more pleasant to walk the short distance to the shops/school/whatever.Stevo_666 said:
Got any data for that? Or are you saying that the traffic has just disappeared?kingstongraham said:
See my update. There is not additional traffic in roads just outside the LTN.Stevo_666 said:
Ah OK, as long as you're OK then?kingstongraham said:
Nope.Stevo_666 said:
Do you not have some sympathy for those who live just outside your LTN, as they will likely be in a high (or higher) traffic neighbourbood on account of the traffic displaced from where you live?kingstongraham said:I'm on the frontline, being both in an LTN and able to walk to the shops. Also on a 20mph street. Let me tell you it's hell and I'm glad someone has had the bravery to stand up and say so. I just want to brrm brrm for two minutes to a car park, please let me.
As far as I can see, LTNs seem to be traffic based NIMBY-ism and your reply backs up my hunch.
Here's one study on the effects both within and around LTNs. There are others of course.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920922003625"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo, does building a new road reduce traffic on surrounding roads?0
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Ask a road planner.First.Aspect said:Stevo, does building a new road reduce traffic on surrounding roads?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Right back at you.Stevo_666 said:
Ask a road planner.First.Aspect said:Stevo, does building a new road reduce traffic on surrounding roads?
How about more lanes?
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Not sure he needs to do anything. I've seen various reports that support KG's statement. I was wondering if you have anything to counter that. It's fine if you don't or haven't looked.Stevo_666 said:
KG claimed traffic had not increased outside his LTN so he needs to support that claim.rjsterry said:
You've not presented any data to support the idea that LTNs increase traffic around their perimeters. It's often stated but have never seen anything to back it up beyond 'where do those vehicles go?'. I mean half the point of them is that people make fewer car journeys because it's quicker and more pleasant to walk the short distance to the shops/school/whatever.Stevo_666 said:
Got any data for that? Or are you saying that the traffic has just disappeared?kingstongraham said:
See my update. There is not additional traffic in roads just outside the LTN.Stevo_666 said:
Ah OK, as long as you're OK then?kingstongraham said:
Nope.Stevo_666 said:
Do you not have some sympathy for those who live just outside your LTN, as they will likely be in a high (or higher) traffic neighbourbood on account of the traffic displaced from where you live?kingstongraham said:I'm on the frontline, being both in an LTN and able to walk to the shops. Also on a 20mph street. Let me tell you it's hell and I'm glad someone has had the bravery to stand up and say so. I just want to brrm brrm for two minutes to a car park, please let me.
As far as I can see, LTNs seem to be traffic based NIMBY-ism and your reply backs up my hunch.
Here's one study on the effects both within and around LTNs. There are others of course.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S13619209220036251985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Some data here.rjsterry said:
Not sure he needs to do anything. I've seen various reports that support KG's statement. I was wondering if you have anything to counter that. It's fine if you don't or haven't looked.Stevo_666 said:
KG claimed traffic had not increased outside his LTN so he needs to support that claim.rjsterry said:
You've not presented any data to support the idea that LTNs increase traffic around their perimeters. It's often stated but have never seen anything to back it up beyond 'where do those vehicles go?'. I mean half the point of them is that people make fewer car journeys because it's quicker and more pleasant to walk the short distance to the shops/school/whatever.Stevo_666 said:
Got any data for that? Or are you saying that the traffic has just disappeared?kingstongraham said:
See my update. There is not additional traffic in roads just outside the LTN.Stevo_666 said:
Ah OK, as long as you're OK then?kingstongraham said:
Nope.Stevo_666 said:
Do you not have some sympathy for those who live just outside your LTN, as they will likely be in a high (or higher) traffic neighbourbood on account of the traffic displaced from where you live?kingstongraham said:I'm on the frontline, being both in an LTN and able to walk to the shops. Also on a 20mph street. Let me tell you it's hell and I'm glad someone has had the bravery to stand up and say so. I just want to brrm brrm for two minutes to a car park, please let me.
As far as I can see, LTNs seem to be traffic based NIMBY-ism and your reply backs up my hunch.
Here's one study on the effects both within and around LTNs. There are others of course.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920922003625
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Traffic_Neighbourhood
There's a more recent study, but it's a pity it was authored by bodies with an agenda, as even if the data is robust, the framing of it might be considered problematic.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/low-traffic-neighbourhoods-impact-on-traffic-london-westminster-university-study-b1054147.html
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Fairly poor whataboutery attempt.First.Aspect said:
Right back at you.Stevo_666 said:
Ask a road planner.First.Aspect said:Stevo, does building a new road reduce traffic on surrounding roads?
How about more lanes?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
There's no figures on this specific one over more than a couple of months, you'll just have to trust me.Stevo_666 said:
KG claimed traffic had not increased outside his LTN so he needs to support that claim.rjsterry said:
You've not presented any data to support the idea that LTNs increase traffic around their perimeters. It's often stated but have never seen anything to back it up beyond 'where do those vehicles go?'. I mean half the point of them is that people make fewer car journeys because it's quicker and more pleasant to walk the short distance to the shops/school/whatever.Stevo_666 said:
Got any data for that? Or are you saying that the traffic has just disappeared?kingstongraham said:
See my update. There is not additional traffic in roads just outside the LTN.Stevo_666 said:
Ah OK, as long as you're OK then?kingstongraham said:
Nope.Stevo_666 said:
Do you not have some sympathy for those who live just outside your LTN, as they will likely be in a high (or higher) traffic neighbourbood on account of the traffic displaced from where you live?kingstongraham said:I'm on the frontline, being both in an LTN and able to walk to the shops. Also on a 20mph street. Let me tell you it's hell and I'm glad someone has had the bravery to stand up and say so. I just want to brrm brrm for two minutes to a car park, please let me.
As far as I can see, LTNs seem to be traffic based NIMBY-ism and your reply backs up my hunch.
Here's one study on the effects both within and around LTNs. There are others of course.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S13619209220036250 -
This being withdrawn and replaced with "making driving as straightforward as possible" seems bad.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reallocating-road-space-in-response-to-covid-19-statutory-guidance-for-local-authorities/traffic-management-act-2004-network-management-in-response-to-covid-190 -
Who designed this?! For £24m?!0 -
What are we looking at? Is she walking in a gutter?0
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rick_chasey said:
Who designed this?! For £24m?!
I'm sure that pedestrians would never use both lanes, kids on scooters would always go in a dead straight line, and people walking dogs would always keep them on a tight lead close at heel. Can't see any problem at all.0 -
I'd ride in the bus lane there.0
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I'd ride slowly in the middle, occasionally move side to side without warning, and never shoulder check.kingstongraham said:I'd ride in the bus lane there.
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I suspect the £24 million relates to more than that. From the article it appears this is just a short section where there were serious constraints.rick_chasey said:
Who designed this?! For £24m?!
It’s terrible design but it needs a bit more than that article before blaming the designer.
I have some sympathy as I had to design cycle routes for a new school alongside an A road. We had the existing road and footway corridor to play with plus a bit of verge in places then 3rd party land (gardens) either side and some serious changes of level in places. Most of it we could just about get the minimum (at the time) width for a shared use path and made it wider where possible but at a few pinch points it was too narrow.
My suggestion was to reduce the road width to make the cycle path wider with the added benefit of slowing traffic but I was told by the Council in no uncertain terms that inconveniencing traffic wasn’t an option. I pointed out that we couldn’t design to minimum standards throughout but got told if we wanted planning we had to provide what we could. We got planning, did the full detailed design which took some pretty tricky engineering in places and finally got approval to build.
At that point a new department head joined the Council and demanded an explanation of why we had designed something sub-standard (he wanted it to meet a new, more stringent standard that came in after we got planning). He wanted us to explain why we hadn’t widened into the road as it was an obvious solution. Luckily I had all the emails where I’d suggested this and his predecessor and staff had said no. There was a lot of internal pressure on him to get it approved so the school could open and he relented. The upshot is a pretty poor £2 million scheme that I’m partly embarrassed by but partly proud of what I managed to get considering all the constraints and parties with different views.
The next school we did ended up with paths that are nearly as wide as the road (another A road) it runs alongside and I even had to realign the road. Obviously it ties into nothing once you get further back towards the town as there’s no existing facilities.0 -
Maybe yours is an exception?kingstongraham said:
There's no figures on this specific one over more than a couple of months, you'll just have to trust me.Stevo_666 said:
KG claimed traffic had not increased outside his LTN so he needs to support that claim.rjsterry said:
You've not presented any data to support the idea that LTNs increase traffic around their perimeters. It's often stated but have never seen anything to back it up beyond 'where do those vehicles go?'. I mean half the point of them is that people make fewer car journeys because it's quicker and more pleasant to walk the short distance to the shops/school/whatever.Stevo_666 said:
Got any data for that? Or are you saying that the traffic has just disappeared?kingstongraham said:
See my update. There is not additional traffic in roads just outside the LTN.Stevo_666 said:
Ah OK, as long as you're OK then?kingstongraham said:
Nope.Stevo_666 said:
Do you not have some sympathy for those who live just outside your LTN, as they will likely be in a high (or higher) traffic neighbourbood on account of the traffic displaced from where you live?kingstongraham said:I'm on the frontline, being both in an LTN and able to walk to the shops. Also on a 20mph street. Let me tell you it's hell and I'm glad someone has had the bravery to stand up and say so. I just want to brrm brrm for two minutes to a car park, please let me.
As far as I can see, LTNs seem to be traffic based NIMBY-ism and your reply backs up my hunch.
Here's one study on the effects both within and around LTNs. There are others of course.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920922003625
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/ltn-tide-turned-in-newcastle/
Seems that they cause quite a few problems outside of the SW London bubble.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
"It used to take me four minutes to drive to work, now it takes me 40" makes you realised how screwed we are.0
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Funny. When you look that up via other sources you find that it was only a temporary trial, yet local residents are generally disappointed that it's not staying. Have found the same story on several local news sites. Could it be that the skeleton staff left at the Telegraph didn't research the story?Stevo_666 said:
Maybe yours is an exception?kingstongraham said:
There's no figures on this specific one over more than a couple of months, you'll just have to trust me.Stevo_666 said:
KG claimed traffic had not increased outside his LTN so he needs to support that claim.rjsterry said:
You've not presented any data to support the idea that LTNs increase traffic around their perimeters. It's often stated but have never seen anything to back it up beyond 'where do those vehicles go?'. I mean half the point of them is that people make fewer car journeys because it's quicker and more pleasant to walk the short distance to the shops/school/whatever.Stevo_666 said:
Got any data for that? Or are you saying that the traffic has just disappeared?kingstongraham said:
See my update. There is not additional traffic in roads just outside the LTN.Stevo_666 said:
Ah OK, as long as you're OK then?kingstongraham said:
Nope.Stevo_666 said:
Do you not have some sympathy for those who live just outside your LTN, as they will likely be in a high (or higher) traffic neighbourbood on account of the traffic displaced from where you live?kingstongraham said:I'm on the frontline, being both in an LTN and able to walk to the shops. Also on a 20mph street. Let me tell you it's hell and I'm glad someone has had the bravery to stand up and say so. I just want to brrm brrm for two minutes to a car park, please let me.
As far as I can see, LTNs seem to be traffic based NIMBY-ism and your reply backs up my hunch.
Here's one study on the effects both within and around LTNs. There are others of course.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920922003625
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/ltn-tide-turned-in-newcastle/
Seems that they cause quite a few problems outside of the SW London bubble.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Paywalled.Stevo_666 said:
Maybe yours is an exception?kingstongraham said:
There's no figures on this specific one over more than a couple of months, you'll just have to trust me.Stevo_666 said:
KG claimed traffic had not increased outside his LTN so he needs to support that claim.rjsterry said:
You've not presented any data to support the idea that LTNs increase traffic around their perimeters. It's often stated but have never seen anything to back it up beyond 'where do those vehicles go?'. I mean half the point of them is that people make fewer car journeys because it's quicker and more pleasant to walk the short distance to the shops/school/whatever.Stevo_666 said:
Got any data for that? Or are you saying that the traffic has just disappeared?kingstongraham said:
See my update. There is not additional traffic in roads just outside the LTN.Stevo_666 said:
Ah OK, as long as you're OK then?kingstongraham said:
Nope.Stevo_666 said:
Do you not have some sympathy for those who live just outside your LTN, as they will likely be in a high (or higher) traffic neighbourbood on account of the traffic displaced from where you live?kingstongraham said:I'm on the frontline, being both in an LTN and able to walk to the shops. Also on a 20mph street. Let me tell you it's hell and I'm glad someone has had the bravery to stand up and say so. I just want to brrm brrm for two minutes to a car park, please let me.
As far as I can see, LTNs seem to be traffic based NIMBY-ism and your reply backs up my hunch.
Here's one study on the effects both within and around LTNs. There are others of course.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920922003625
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/ltn-tide-turned-in-newcastle/
Seems that they cause quite a few problems outside of the SW London bubble.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
pinno said:
Paywalled.Stevo_666 said:
Maybe yours is an exception?kingstongraham said:
There's no figures on this specific one over more than a couple of months, you'll just have to trust me.Stevo_666 said:
KG claimed traffic had not increased outside his LTN so he needs to support that claim.rjsterry said:
You've not presented any data to support the idea that LTNs increase traffic around their perimeters. It's often stated but have never seen anything to back it up beyond 'where do those vehicles go?'. I mean half the point of them is that people make fewer car journeys because it's quicker and more pleasant to walk the short distance to the shops/school/whatever.Stevo_666 said:
Got any data for that? Or are you saying that the traffic has just disappeared?kingstongraham said:
See my update. There is not additional traffic in roads just outside the LTN.Stevo_666 said:
Ah OK, as long as you're OK then?kingstongraham said:
Nope.Stevo_666 said:
Do you not have some sympathy for those who live just outside your LTN, as they will likely be in a high (or higher) traffic neighbourbood on account of the traffic displaced from where you live?kingstongraham said:I'm on the frontline, being both in an LTN and able to walk to the shops. Also on a 20mph street. Let me tell you it's hell and I'm glad someone has had the bravery to stand up and say so. I just want to brrm brrm for two minutes to a car park, please let me.
As far as I can see, LTNs seem to be traffic based NIMBY-ism and your reply backs up my hunch.
Here's one study on the effects both within and around LTNs. There are others of course.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920922003625
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/ltn-tide-turned-in-newcastle/
Seems that they cause quite a few problems outside of the SW London bubble.
Not if you disable Javascript, so I'm told 😉0 -
Some are not good, and those shouldn't stay.Stevo_666 said:
Maybe yours is an exception?kingstongraham said:
There's no figures on this specific one over more than a couple of months, you'll just have to trust me.Stevo_666 said:
KG claimed traffic had not increased outside his LTN so he needs to support that claim.rjsterry said:
You've not presented any data to support the idea that LTNs increase traffic around their perimeters. It's often stated but have never seen anything to back it up beyond 'where do those vehicles go?'. I mean half the point of them is that people make fewer car journeys because it's quicker and more pleasant to walk the short distance to the shops/school/whatever.Stevo_666 said:
Got any data for that? Or are you saying that the traffic has just disappeared?kingstongraham said:
See my update. There is not additional traffic in roads just outside the LTN.Stevo_666 said:
Ah OK, as long as you're OK then?kingstongraham said:
Nope.Stevo_666 said:
Do you not have some sympathy for those who live just outside your LTN, as they will likely be in a high (or higher) traffic neighbourbood on account of the traffic displaced from where you live?kingstongraham said:I'm on the frontline, being both in an LTN and able to walk to the shops. Also on a 20mph street. Let me tell you it's hell and I'm glad someone has had the bravery to stand up and say so. I just want to brrm brrm for two minutes to a car park, please let me.
As far as I can see, LTNs seem to be traffic based NIMBY-ism and your reply backs up my hunch.
Here's one study on the effects both within and around LTNs. There are others of course.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920922003625
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/04/ltn-tide-turned-in-newcastle/
Seems that they cause quite a few problems outside of the SW London bubble.
You will continue to believe any old nonsense the Telegraph publish though, won't you? One ltn being removed after a trial period and that's evidence the tide is turning?
Maybe there is something special about sw London that means it's the only place they are popular. I doubt it.0 -
Also, if drivers are now cutting through on other residential streets, sounds like they need to make more of them no through roads. Doesn't sound well designed.0
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Rats will always find a rat run, if one exists.kingstongraham said:Also, if drivers are now cutting through on other residential streets, sounds like they need to make more of them no through roads. Doesn't sound well designed.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
kingstongraham said:
Also, if drivers are now cutting through on other residential streets, sounds like they need to make more of them no through roads. Doesn't sound well designed.
Reading the local press report, it reads as though the scheme under which they started this particular LTN gave it a limited shelf life, and that though they recognised it wasn't working well overall (for the reason you mention), the particular scheme meant it was easier to withdraw the LTN as implemented and re-envisage it taking into account the problems with the withdrawn one.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fenham-low-traffic-neighbourhood-scrapped-27637197Labour councillor Jane Byrne, the authority's cabinet member for transport, said: “We’re committed to creating cleaner, greener and safer neighbourhoods and reducing the volume of traffic cutting through local streets is an important part in achieving this. Fenham was the first area of the city to pilot a neighbourhood low traffic zone trial and we haven’t seen enough evidence to keep it in place, particularly with the displacement of traffic on to what should be quiet residential streets, rather than rerouting onto the main roads.
“As we have said many times, these schemes are trials which are really important as they allow us to try the changes in local areas and see what works for people living in the zone.
“We also know that some people will be disappointed, but we’ve taken a lot of learning from the scheme, and we have a good basis for refining a future scheme by listening to residents and looking at the data in more detail. It is also important to note that each neighbourhood low traffic zone is unique, as we use the data we collect alongside feedback from the public consultation, in deciding on the long-term future of individual schemes.”
Fancy that, people who actually live in the area being allowed a voice in traffic management through the streets they live in. Whatever next?
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lol i got accused of NIMBYism when I suggested thatbriantrumpet said:
Fancy that, people who actually live in the area being allowed a voice in traffic management through the streets they live in. Whatever next?0 -
I think you said theirs should be the only voice.rick_chasey said:
lol i got accused of NIMBYism when I suggested thatbriantrumpet said:
Fancy that, people who actually live in the area being allowed a voice in traffic management through the streets they live in. Whatever next?0 -
Singapore on Thames you say?
"The cost of a certificate to own a large family car in Singapore has jumped to a fresh record high of S$146,002 ($106,619; £87,684)."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67014420The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0
