Forum home Road cycling forum Pro race

Roi des Rouleurs (90s onwards)

24

Posts

  • Thomas is not a better all round road cyclist than (for example) Nibali.

    Arguably, the 2 opposite ends of the WT spectrum are the TDF and Roubaix.

    They've both won the first (and had another podium).

    https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/12911497/chippers-a-reminder
    Just checked IainF72s definitive guide. Mid ranking classic not a chipper.

    I said I didn’t want to call it a chipper… but…

    It’s not a palmares defining race, it’s not a career changing race. I was there… maybe 50 people around the finish line… it wasn’t a three deep crowd for sure… then the podium ceremony, maybe 100 spectators, give or take… I’ve seen more people at some kids football games to be honest.
    It’s a nice enough course, and generally attracts some of the specialists, but it’s not the Ronde by any stretch of imagination.

    Point is, I wouldn’t rate Thomas among the greats because he has won the E3



    He's gone top 10 in Flanders and Roubaix. And won the tour. And finished 2nd in the Tour. Don't think there's any other active riders with that range.
  • Thomas is not a better all round road cyclist than (for example) Nibali.

    Arguably, the 2 opposite ends of the WT spectrum are the TDF and Roubaix.

    They've both won the first (and had another podium).

    https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/12911497/chippers-a-reminder
    Just checked IainF72s definitive guide. Mid ranking classic not a chipper.

    I said I didn’t want to call it a chipper… but…

    It’s not a palmares defining race, it’s not a career changing race. I was there… maybe 50 people around the finish line… it wasn’t a three deep crowd for sure… then the podium ceremony, maybe 100 spectators, give or take… I’ve seen more people at some kids football games to be honest.
    It’s a nice enough course, and generally attracts some of the specialists, but it’s not the Ronde by any stretch of imagination.

    Point is, I wouldn’t rate Thomas among the greats because he has won the E3



    He's gone top 10 in Flanders and Roubaix. And won the tour. And finished 2nd in the Tour. Don't think there's any other active riders with that range.
    I think the same question in a different country wouldn't see Thomas in the top 20, let alone on any podium.

    I am Italian, and therefore I am partial to Bugno... but with two World titles, two monuments, one Giro and 2 Tour podiums, I think he is there with the best and proved he could WIN on any terrain.

    Top ten is good, winning is different

    left the forum March 2023
  • Thomas is not a better all round road cyclist than (for example) Nibali.

    Arguably, the 2 opposite ends of the WT spectrum are the TDF and Roubaix.
    That is definitely arguable.

    The fact that there are only two ends of the spectrum is the first point I'd take issue with.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 8,468

    I see a rouleur as a rider that has a big engine - a lot of power rather than just power to weight - winning in the mountains almost means you can't be a rouleur. They might have a sprint on them but they can and will attack alone or with a small group rather than trying to win it at the finish.

    For me Museeuw, Boonen riders like that.

    Museeuw yes, Boonen couldn’t really climb anything longer than a Flemish berg, not sure he was an all rounder…

    Yeah I don't see being able to climb as part of a rouleur's arsenal. Big powerful riders who do well on flat and rolling terrain. I don't see Thomas as a rouleur or Nibali just riders who can compete with them - a bit like they aren't just climbers even if they can compete with them. Stannard (the GB one) would be a rouleur.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Clearly I am wrong, in reading that a rouleur is someone who can win on any terrain. What’s the definition of such rider?

    The best example (albeit not in the period range) would be Hinault… or Merckx before him… riders who could win any race
    left the forum March 2023
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 67,641 Lives Here
    edited February 2022
    If it's *any terrain* surely it's WvA?

    TT, double ventoux stage, Champs Elyse sprint all in the same Tour!
  • If it's *any terrain* surely it's WvA?

    TT, double ventoux stage, Champs Elyse sprint all in the same Tour!

    Mmmhh.. or maybe he just had a very good Tour...
    I think he will be one of the greats, I am pretty sure he will, just he is not there yet... maybe one-two monuments or one World title away
    left the forum March 2023
  • Thomas is not a better all round road cyclist than (for example) Nibali.

    Arguably, the 2 opposite ends of the WT spectrum are the TDF and Roubaix.
    That is definitely arguable.

    The fact that there are only two ends of the spectrum is the first point I'd take issue with.
    True.

    TBH I'm not really sure what Ugo is trying to argue. He just likes Bugno I think, which is fair enough.
  • If it's *any terrain* surely it's WvA?

    TT, double ventoux stage, Champs Elyse sprint all in the same Tour!

    This. He's the only current rider who could (likely) win a top class bunch sprint, a TT, a Mountain stage and a cobbled classic (Monument level).
  • If it's *any terrain* surely it's WvA?

    TT, double ventoux stage, Champs Elyse sprint all in the same Tour!

    This. He's the only current rider who could (likely) win a top class bunch sprint, a TT, a Mountain stage and a cobbled classic (Monument level).
    Yes, but he still has to win them races... although in fairness he has won Milan-Sanremo already... give him time
    left the forum March 2023
  • Slightly related but on a tangent (and I have posed this one before so see who remembers....)

    Quiz Question (no cheating / PCS) - who is the current (active) most successful rider in 1 day races (1.1. and above)?
  • Slightly related but on a tangent (and I have posed this one before so see who remembers....)

    Quiz Question (no cheating / PCS) - who is the current (active) most successful rider in 1 day races (1.1. and above)?

    Gilbert? Rebellin?
    left the forum March 2023
  • Valverde?
    left the forum March 2023
  • Oh, I see, I now found the source... well, I picked 3 of the top 10... and Geraint is only 46th... :D
    left the forum March 2023
  • TDG is the best for me.

    Oh and whatever happened to RCUK?
  • Steve Cummings
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,748

    Slightly related but on a tangent (and I have posed this one before so see who remembers....)

    Quiz Question (no cheating / PCS) - who is the current (active) most successful rider in 1 day races (1.1. and above)?

    Currently it's probably Alaphilippe. He is a double WC after all. He's usual in the mix for all the races bar Roubaix.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ProssPross Posts: 36,476

    I see a rouleur as a rider that has a big engine - a lot of power rather than just power to weight - winning in the mountains almost means you can't be a rouleur. They might have a sprint on them but they can and will attack alone or with a small group rather than trying to win it at the finish.

    For me Museeuw, Boonen riders like that.

    That's more what I've always understood a rouleur to be but there are all sorts of definitions out there. I would say WVA and MVDP are rouleurs and maybe Hayter. Of the list in the OP I would suggest Gilbert and Jalabert (especially in his early days guise) were.
  • Pross said:

    Of the list in the OP I would suggest Gilbert and Jalabert (especially in his early days guise) were.

    If by Rouleur, we mean someone with a big engine and good on flat/rolling, then surely of my original lot, Bugno is the one that fits the description the best

    left the forum March 2023
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 20,676
    edited February 2022

    Problem with guys like Canc and Thomas, is we know they're fast on the flat because of their TT ability, but as protected riders they rarely stuck their nose in the wind until the very end of the race (OK, excluding a couple of Canc roubaix wins, but roubaix is roubaix).


    Is the consensus that Boonen loses out on top rouleur status because he only won flanders and roubaix once as a solo rider? (if we ignore him rinsing Hoste so hard it looked like a solo finish but clearly wasn't), and he got spanked by Canc in 2010 Flanders?

    Again, he suffers the problem that because he's Boonen they're not gonna let him down the road in a GT, nor would he want to as he can compete for the sprint.

    LOL
    The Boonen man love is still strong I see.
    How many Tours did Canc have his nose on the wind, towing the Schlecks around?
    Thomas too cut his teeth in the train. He wasn’t always a protected rider.
    By the criteria you used for Thomas, Boonen was the QS sprinter and so never stuck his nose into the wind until the final 200 metres.

    A couple of other names worth considering: George Hincapie and Steffan Wesemann.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • I'd always thought that a rouleur wasn't someone as good as Cancellara - good at rolling along the road and doing a job, might win from a break by wearing others down, but wouldn't win a top class TT.
  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 6,136
    Luke Rowe is one I'd classify as a rouleur. Can sit on the front with his nose in the wind towing the peloton around hour on end over rolling countryside. Likewise Kiryenka. Hincapie too, and Cancellara. As soon as it properly goes uphill they're out, and don't have a sprint on them. Just a monster engine.

    Unlike the puncheurs who love the short double digit stuff.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 12,230
    I've always though of a Rouleur as being primarily strong on the flat/rolling stuff.
    Rouleur mag has its own definition

    And Musseeuw offers us his version (and claims it fits him)

    https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/the-rouleur-journal/johan-museeuw-definition-of-a-rouleur
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 67,641 Lives Here
    If it's *any terrain* surely it's WvA?

    Problem with guys like Canc and Thomas, is we know they're fast on the flat because of their TT ability, but as protected riders they rarely stuck their nose in the wind until the very end of the race (OK, excluding a couple of Canc roubaix wins, but roubaix is roubaix).


    Is the consensus that Boonen loses out on top rouleur status because he only won flanders and roubaix once as a solo rider? (if we ignore him rinsing Hoste so hard it looked like a solo finish but clearly wasn't), and he got spanked by Canc in 2010 Flanders?

    Again, he suffers the problem that because he's Boonen they're not gonna let him down the road in a GT, nor would he want to as he can compete for the sprint.

    LOL
    The Boonen man love is still strong I see.
    How many Tours did Canc have his nose on the wind, towing the Schlecks around?
    Thomas too cut his teeth in the train. He wasn’t always a protected rider.
    By the criteria you used for Thomas, Boonen was the QS sprinter and so never stuck his nose into the wind until the final 200 metres.

    A couple of other names worth considering: George Hincapie and Steffan Wesemann.
    All fair.

  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 18,574
    Wikipedia

    Details

    In road bicycle racing different courses favour different types of rider depending on a range of environmental conditions such as terrain, climate and distance. Flat courses often finish in a bunch sprint, which favours specialist sprinters who can ride fastest over the last few hundred metres of the race. Mountainous courses favour lightweight, lean riders with a particularly high power output to weight ratio, enabling them to ascend the mountains efficiently. The time trial discipline is mastered by the riders who can produce a sustained high power output, over short to medium distance.

    The rouleur is a consistent all rounder who can ride well over most types of course. A rouleur will often work as a domestique in support of their team leader, a sprinter or a climber on their team. The best chance for a rouleur to win a stage is by breaking away from the main bunch during the race to win from a small group of riders that does not contain the sprint specialists. The breakaway is most likely to succeed in the undulating transition stages of multi-stage road races, that are neither mountainous nor flat.

    Examples of such racers include George Hincapie, Jens Voigt, Sylvain Chavanel, Ben King, Sandy Casar, Pierrick Fédrigo, Luis León Sánchez, Jérémy Roy and Jacky Durand.
  • phreakphreak Posts: 2,824
    edited February 2022
    No love for Francesco Moser? 3 Roubaix, 2 Lombardia, MSR, a Worlds, a helicopter-assisted Giro and more podiums than you can shake a stick at. He must surely be the best rouleur not called De Vlaeminck or Kelly.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,748
    phreak said:

    No love for Francesco Moser? 3 Roubaix, 2 Lombardia, MSR, a Worlds, a helicopter-assisted Giro and more podiums than you can shake a stick at. He must surely be the best rouleur not called De Vlaeminck or Kelly.


    To be fair in 1990 he was 39 and retired
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • phreakphreak Posts: 2,824
    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:

    No love for Francesco Moser? 3 Roubaix, 2 Lombardia, MSR, a Worlds, a helicopter-assisted Giro and more podiums than you can shake a stick at. He must surely be the best rouleur not called De Vlaeminck or Kelly.


    To be fair in 1990 he was 39 and retired
    Fair point, I should have read the title properly before jumping in.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,898
    edited February 2022
    phreak said:

    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:

    No love for Francesco Moser? 3 Roubaix, 2 Lombardia, MSR, a Worlds, a helicopter-assisted Giro and more podiums than you can shake a stick at. He must surely be the best rouleur not called De Vlaeminck or Kelly.


    To be fair in 1990 he was 39 and retired
    Fair point, I should have read the title properly before jumping in.
    I set the bar at 1990 because that's when cycling became more specialised... the climbers took EPO and the sprinters took steroids... different drugs for different jobs. Before that, it was common to see riders win a Grand Tour, as well as the cobbled monuments and having a go at the stage sprints as well... after 1990 it became very rare, hence those riders capable of winning on many terrains became more precious.
    left the forum March 2023
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,748
    edited February 2022



    I set the bar at 1990 because that's when cycling became more specialised... the climbers took EPO and the sprinters took steroids... different drugs for different jobs.


    And Bugno and Jalabert were definitely all rounders
    Twitter: @RichN95
Sign In or Register to comment.