My more major project to lighten an R8000 disc brake road bike

super_davo

Dan I have had a look and you are indeed correct, cheapest Dura Ace bikes start from about £7k.

But if you're going to use an Ultegra cassette, you're probably saving less than 200 grams getting Dura Ace for your several thousand extra (mostly in the crankset).

This latest generation of Shimano has made some big improvements, such as;
- Wireless from shifters
- In built e-tube
- Braking improvements (less rub, better feel)

IMO I would rather have those than the 200 gram saving you get from last gen Dura Ace. 12 speed itself is a bit meh but the other details make the difference. Don't forget 9100 was the first "proper disc brake groupset" Shimano made and there were improvements to be made from there.

daniel_b

Thanks @super_davo it's not purely about the weight, also the performance, and user experience.
I'm also not a big fan of gappy rear cassettes, and even 11-32 I find more gappy that I would like.
I'll likely want to run a 52/36 up front, so would need something around an 11-32 for proper climbs ideally, so the extra cog would reduce that gappyness a bit.

I have Ultegra 6800 on my CR1 SL, that I even installed myself, and that (despite my involvement) shifts like a dream, really positive, both front and rear, and I've never had a mis shift, or had the chain come off in some 6+ years of use.

The 9100 on the Foil is just that little bit better with regards to feel, nothing I can put my finger on as to why, but there's just something about it that makes it feel that step above.

I didn't intend to buy a DA bike, this one came up new for 33% off, and it was THE bike I wanted, so I felt duty bound to buy it - admittedly not disc brake, but that bike cost me only marginally (15% ish) more now than the latest groupsets.

The main reason I was erring towards the current 12spd was due to me reading somewhere that the latest generation of 12spd callipers had more space for the rotor, and thus less chance of rotor rub - if that is incorrect, then I am with you entirely, and 11spd would become the front runner.

I've also considered Ultegra, but as this is meant to be my dream bike, and likely one I will keep for 15-20 years, I want it to be specced just right - admittedly I can change the groupset down the line, and will almost certainly have to, but I kind of feel like I want to start as I want to go on.

Frustratingly Merlin are not on my C2W schemes approved list so are not an option, but I have found some other retailers who sell the parts separately, so I think the plan will be to find somewhere, this year or next, who stock as many of the parts as possible, pay a deposit to secure them, raise a C2W voucher, and then either buy extra bits separately, or wait until the following year - I'm not in any mad hurry.

Regarding cranksets, and the fact I might change chainrings anyway, is there a totally different brand of chainset that could be worth considering (I know of Rotor but there must be many others) as I can basically spec it exactly as I want.
Perhaps even one with power built in - as I'd probably go 4iiii otherwise.

daniel_b

Just thought I would post an update on here.

I have a 9270 groupset reserved at my very local lbs, and should make the final payment on the commuter bike next month, so should be able to raise a new voucher in early December.

The shop I believe has it in stock, so should be able to get my grubby mitts on it immediately.
The only thing I am now umming and erring over is whether to go for the 11-30 cassette, or stick with the 11-34 I specified originally.

Latterly I am thinking that I climb pretty well, and as and when I do travel to Europe for some proper climbing, I guess I could just fit an 11-34 ultegra cassette and new chain, but I'm still undecided.

Anyway, I digress - I am reasonably mechanically competent, but short on time, and never tackled all of the completely internal cabling we now have, or hydraulics - plus I know Scott bikes are quite particular about spacers and what is placed where for exact and correct trouble free functioning.

So in light of that, I had already approached a not quite so local, but within 20 miles, bike shop that sells Scott bikes.
Regrettably they do not take my employers C2W vouchers, otherwise I would have bought bikes and groupset from them, so I e-mailed them with a bit of trepidation to see whether they would take this work on or not, as I explained I had, or would have, all of the various parts that I wanted them to fit.

• Remove R8000 groupset
  
• Fit Dura Ace 9270 groupset
  
• Install tubes, tyres and rotors on new wheels and fit to bike
  
• Fit integrated Syncros bars/stem
  

Delighted to say that they came back today with a price, which I have to say I felt was entirely reasonable.

• £315
  

What do we think, about right, too much?

I'm paying it for sure, I'd easily pay £115 of that just to know it was being carried out by properly trained technicians - and long term I think I'll be dropping the hydraulic bikes there for servicing as well.

Following on from the successful full clear wrap of the Gravel bike, I think I will get this one wrapped as well, but wait until the groupset and all that is fitted, hopefully around January/February time, and then I can have this all done, dusted and ready for it's first ride in spring of next year, just 18 months after buying it

Those who are aware of how long it took me to build up the two CR1s will know I don't like to rush things.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

This might open a can of worms! £315 for a bike build seems steep to me but if you are happy with that Dan, that is all that matters.

A few places local to me would charge around £120-140 for a build, parts supplied by the customer. I would factor in a bit extra for hydraulics etc, so perhaps about £200 for what you have described.

Those are Midlands prices though!

daniel_b

No not at all, interested to hear other opinions - this place has a good reputation, and as I say is a long standing Scott dealer, so I'm happy to pay a bit over the odds for peace of mind I guess.

I suspect prices will be a bit more down this end of the country, though it doesn't seem as if they are charging me any more due to nothing having been bought from them, so I guess they just have pretty high labour rates - maybe they may their mechanics well to keep them, hopefully!

This is a one off, and I'll be keeping this bike probably forever, so I'm definitely content to pay that knowing I'll have a well finished bike at the end of the day.

I suspect they will have a bit of faffing to do with the wheels, and getting the rotors on, and not sure how they will get the battery fitted, presumably there will be some adaptor to utilise the void in the seatpost - hopefully not too much trouble.

Oh and just to add, the bars/stem are reasonably complicated, being fully integrated, so when I originally asked for a quote just for that, it was either going to be £45 or £90, so I'm treating it as an extra £225 to get the entire bike done - saves me a fair bit of hassle at the same time.

Still not decided whether to sell the new R8020 groupset on or hang onto it - suspect I should get something in the region of £600-£700 for it?

super_davo

IMO £315 is way too much for what you'd need to do.

R9270 is semi wireless and you don't have a junction box to worry about so its literally just wiring the battery to the two mechs. The integrated bars are a bit more of a faff but you only need to route the hydraullics. I did the integrated bars myself on my new bike with R8170 and I'm not going to claim it was easy but it wasn't hours and hours and I didn't need to call in help.

If I were you I'd find a good indepent bike mechanic - we have loads down our way (Essex so not going to be massively cheaper than Surrey). The job will probably come in at half that, and it will also be very useful to have a someone you trust to tinker with your bike(s) going forward.

Main dealer bike manufacturers are like main dealer car manufacturers when it comes to servicing - OK when it's a freebie linked to a sale but massively expensive otherwise.

daniel_b

Thanks for the reply @super_davo

I know of 4 quite highly rated independents in this area, two of which have split off from the LBS I'm sourcing the groupset from, but I suspect they may end up charging not the same amount, but probably within 80%.

The reason I think that, is that I know their full bike service costs are very similar to those of the shop I am looking to use, so from that I am surmising their labour charges are similar on an hour by hour basis.

I know the bike servicing costs (Used it once for my commuter) have gone up by about 40% over the last two years, I suspect rising energy/fuel costs will have pushed these up even more.

For peace of mind, and some kind of warranty of sorts, I'm going to be far more comfortable paying a % more to have this place strip and rebuild it - this is my keeper for 20 years +, so keen to get it absolutely spot on first time out.

Additionally, if I am paying 'top dollar' if anything is not 100% perfect, I'll have no hesitation in taking it back for them to sort out for me.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I am sure they will do a good job Dan. Yes, I would definitely expect to pay a bit more down South and I would assume a premium due to the more complex nature of the build, as you highlighted.

When you have put a significant amount of time and money into the bike as you have, it makes complete sense to go with a shop you are completely happy with, rather than take the risk elsewhere just to save a few quid.

daniel_b

Next question - I thought I had considered everything, and then I considered a ceramic bottom bracket.

I bought a nearly new (C Bear....?) one off a chap on here ages ago for my CR1 SL, and it has been fitted for years now, and although it has not eliminated the creaking, it has certainly reduced them a lot.

I understand they are not required, and a shimano pressfit is more than up to the job, however, 105 is also more than adequate, electronic gears are not required, and neither are disc brakes, and we can see from this thread what route I am taking.

I want to make this the ultimate bike for me, and I'm thinking whilst the bike is completely stripped down, this could be the perfect time to get a quality ceramic BB in there, and have it almost certainly the final spec from the off.

Also thinking this will reduce the chances of a creaking BB which does do my head in.

It's a BB86, and although I am not a fan of Hambini, his kit seems to get good reviews, so was considering one of these:
https://hambini.com/product/bb86-to-shimano-classic-bottom-bracket/



https://hambini.com/product/bb86-to-shimano-racing-edition-black-bottom-bracket/


Any other ones I should or could consider?

redvision

Watch the hambini videos. You will see that the quality of the bb isn't what causes the creaking, it's the fit. If the frame is well made and bb fits as designed then there should be no problem.

dannbodge

Wouldn't bother going ceramic for the BB. I had a ceramicspeed one on my s-works and changed it to a praxis (non ceramic one) and noticed no difference.

£315 is a bit much IMO, when I used to have bikes built they'd charge the same amount as a "gold" service, as that would involve a strip, clean and refit of a groupset but then again places charge anywhere up to £50 a wheel for brake bleeding now.

My LBS put my s-works together for free, but then again I did buy 75% of the components from them (frame, groupset, saddle)

daniel_b

I think I am persuaded to stick with a stock BB - should I have them rip the (presumably) Ultegra one out, and replace with whatever comes with the 9270 groupset, or just leave the original one in there?

MattFalle

just leave the original - why mess with something what you have no need to mess with and works perfectly well?

Sell/keep the new one.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

As above, I would keep the stock Shimano. I have had various ceramic (not through choice, just because they came with the frame). There really is no discernible difference and the shimano on my Look spins more freely than anything else I own.

daniel_b

Cool, in that case I will hang onto the new one as a spare - bound to come in handy at some point.

trevor.hall12

daniel_b said:

I think I am persuaded to stick with a stock BB - should I have them rip the (presumably) Ultegra one out, and replace with whatever comes with the 9270 groupset, or just leave the original one in there?

Wheels manufacturing do a nice thread together BB86 or threaded for not alot more .option of ceramic or non ceramic ,Once pressed it it's just bearing changes the cups don't need to be removed and on the next bearing change you could upgrade to ceramic bearings if you wish as its a bit cheaper just for bearings

pblakeney

daniel_b said:

...
Latterly I am thinking that I climb pretty well, and as and when I do travel to Europe for some proper climbing, I guess I could just fit an 11-34 ultegra cassette and new chain, but I'm still undecided.
...

I keep a separate cassette and chain for trips to the high mountains.
Why compromise 95% of your riding for the other 5%?

super_davo

pblakeney said:

daniel_b said:

...
Latterly I am thinking that I climb pretty well, and as and when I do travel to Europe for some proper climbing, I guess I could just fit an 11-34 ultegra cassette and new chain, but I'm still undecided.
...

I keep a separate cassette and chain for trips to the high mountains.
Why compromise 95% of your riding for the other 5%?

+1 to this.
Albeit on 12 speed Shimano the tightest ratio cassette you can get is 11-30, and a bottom gear of 36-30 is a ratio that only a few years ago would have been considered fine for climbing anything. You might find that plenty for long alpine climbs that never get too steep; and for doing uber steep stuff like the lake district you can always get a 105 11-34 or even 11-36 plus a chain for not that much.

daniel_b

Ah guys, I had decided to stick with the 11-34, but now these extra posts are making me reconsider

The DA cassette appears to cost in the region of £300

So I would not be getting a 2nd one of those, Ultegra 12spd is 'more' affordable, at around £85, so I guess the logical thing to do, IF I go for two cassettes and chains, is to get the usage out of the expensive DA one in 11-30 flavour, and then buy a 12spd Ultegra 11-34 cassette and suitable chain to swap out as and when.

I suppose if I went that route, I'd need to ask the shop to set the derailleur up so it can accommodate an 11-34, B screw adjustment presumably.

trevor.hall12 said:

daniel_b said:

I think I am persuaded to stick with a stock BB - should I have them rip the (presumably) Ultegra one out, and replace with whatever comes with the 9270 groupset, or just leave the original one in there?

Wheels manufacturing do a nice thread together BB86 or threaded for not alot more .option of ceramic or non ceramic ,Once pressed it it's just bearing changes the cups don't need to be removed and on the next bearing change you could upgrade to ceramic bearings if you wish as its a bit cheaper just for bearings

I'll have a look into this - thanks.

daniel_b

I have messaged my LBS to see if they have, or can get, an 11-30 in stock.

This also got me thinking about chains - I have a KMC DLC on my Foil, and have been really pleased with it.

They do similar colourways in the 12spd version, but slightly irritatingly it appears that the 'quick links' are not reusable.

Was thinking one of these two, the latter I have on the Foil in 11spd format:



IF my lbs has an 11-30 DA Chain, I could then keep that and pair it with an 11-34 Ultegra cassette, and then use the stock DA 11-30 with the above KMC chain.

Seems like I'll need a new quick link everytime I change chains, but I guess that is unlikely to happen more than once a year.
Even if I had 2 or more trips, I'd know well in advance, so would just make the change, and then leave it in 11-34 setup until the last trip of the year is completed.

daniel_b

Decision made - LBS order changed to an 11-30, Ultegra 11-34 ordered, plus that KMC chain above, and 2 pairs of missing links' in black from Wiggle.

It's been a while since I fitted a Shimano chain, and last time I did it came with a snap off pin thing, where you jam it in, and then snap the end off.

Presuming they still work on the same method, I guess I'd be better to get some 12spd missing links instead?

webboo

Shimano chains now come with a quick link. The 11 speed ones do anyway.

ibr17xvii

webboo said:

Shimano chains now come with a quick link. The 11 speed ones do anyway.

Some do some don't.

You just need to make sure you order whichever your preference is.

ugo.santalucia

What’s the weight now?
As a keen hill climber I should be all over this, but I have seen zero improvements in my race results by lightening the bike. So much so that at Sunday National I have used my heaviest rear wheel, quite a lump at around 1kg… it just felt right on some recent training rides. I think I had my best National performance to date… I’ll use it again on Sunday for the season closing race

redvision

ugo.santalucia said:

What’s the weight now?
As a keen hill climber I should be all over this, but I have seen zero improvements in my race results by lightening the bike. So much so that at Sunday National I have used my heaviest rear wheel, quite a lump at around 1kg… it just felt right on some recent training rides. I think I had my best National performance to date… I’ll use it again on Sunday for the season closing race

This is something I was curious about when reading/ watching the videos of the hill championships last weekend. Does a super like bike actually produce faster climbing or because lighter bikes are likely to be less stiff, would performance be lost compared to a stiffer (and slightly heavier) bike?

daniel_b

8.12 is the weight I got on my PX hook scales thing, which looks pretty good, as on google I am getting 8.1, so looks like they are pretty accurate.

That's without pedals, or cages, as it came from the shop.

The wheels/tubes/tyres I suspect will shed around 600g, the saddle probably 170g, and I think the handlebars, going from other peoples scales, is something around 250-300g saving over the separates setup.

I don't know what the difference in groupset weight is, probably not that much, with the battery etc, but weight saving wasn't the reason for choosing that groupset.

I'll be content if with pedals, bottle cages, and the 4iii crank it is low 7s, anything sub 7 would be a really nice bonus, but I'm pragmatic about the final figure - the most important thing for me, is that it will be a bike I want to keep for probably 20+ years, likely forever, and want to ride due to it being a very pleasant experience :-)

EDIT: Struggling to find accurate groupset weights, cautiously it looks like the weight difference might be that Ultegra R8000 is 250-300g heavier, which could cancel out the weight of the pedals, power meter and bottle cages with a prevailing wind.

Also just spotted my cassette change will save a further 30g

Further searching would suggest that the R8000 chainset is lighter than the 9270 one, presumably because they were trying to beef them up and stop the breaking off problems, and or remedy that weird power measuring issue for the driveside - although having watched the gplama review, it appears that have not done so.

If it had been fixed, my lbs had offered me a power crankset for not that much more than the 4iiii is going to cost.

ugo.santalucia

redvision said:

ugo.santalucia said:

What’s the weight now?
As a keen hill climber I should be all over this, but I have seen zero improvements in my race results by lightening the bike. So much so that at Sunday National I have used my heaviest rear wheel, quite a lump at around 1kg… it just felt right on some recent training rides. I think I had my best National performance to date… I’ll use it again on Sunday for the season closing race

This is something I was curious about when reading/ watching the videos of the hill championships last weekend. Does a super like bike actually produce faster climbing or because lighter bikes are likely to be less stiff, would performance be lost compared to a stiffer (and slightly heavier) bike?

In theory, at my level, for every kg saved, I should gain the equivalent of 5-7W, depending on the length of the climb. You can probably model how much faster 5W make you.
I recced the Old Shoe on the Saturday at 295W and did 9:15
I raced the following day at 325W and did 8:30

So 30 watts produced a 45 seconds time advantage over that distance... things are actually a bit more complicated, as on race day I wasn't carrying spare tubes, pump etc... but shouldn't make a huge difference, we are probably talking a pound of stuff. Wind direction and intensity were similar.
So, 1W gives you at best 1.5 seconds advantage on a mile at 12% climb... in theory a bike which is 1kg lighter should make me 7.5s faster.
In practice, I have never seen these advantages coming to fruition... same climb, almost identical power has always meant same time give or take a couple of seconds, regardless of whether I was using the race wheels or not, the 300 grams forks or not, the helmet or no helmet. Wind direction makes a much bigger difference, even for steep climbs.

webboo

8:12K is not light in the slightest. I would be reluctant to have a winter bike that heavy.
🤭

ugo.santalucia

webboo said:

8:12K is not light in the slightest. I would be reluctant to have a winter bike that heavy.
🤭

It’s not bad for a disc bike, they are lumps… not sure how we ended up worse than 10 years ago.

MattFalle

webboo said:

8:12K is not light in the slightest. I would be reluctant to have a winter bike that heavy.
🤭

I hate pizzingon people's bonfires but I think dude should be looking at ride enjoyment for this bike rather than lightness.