Cars, cars, cars...
Comments
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I don't doubt you will have reduced running costs up to 10 years. When you replace the battery pack for the next 10 years how confident are you in all the other stuff in the car lasting ten years. I have done a lot of bangernomics in my time with £500 cars hoping to get a year out them.mr_eddy said:
I don't agree with this at all - older EV's (Nissan Leaf gen 1) had no battery management so no water cooling etc. Even still most still have over 80% battery life after 100k / 10 years (youtube Fully charged for Robert's Nissan leaf as a prime example). The reality is modern EV's deliberately stop you going to zero or full this is why they are listed as "50Kw/h battery - 45Kw/h usable" the battery management system holds back a bit at each end to ensure efficiency and with active cooling/heating the reality is modern EV batteries will last well past 100k and even when they do degrade a bit you simply swap out the cells that are failing - Not the entire battery pack! EV's use 100's or 1000's of cells are strung together. basically loads of laptop batteries connected together.john80 said:
I think the issue with EV's is the battery life. After ten years and a 100k miles there is likely to be either a complete failure or significantly reduced range. These may make the car scrap and therefore it is an asset for which you will receive maybe 1-2k for at the end of life if there is value in the batteries. If not 100 pounds.ddraver said:^^^^That's interesting.
I'm still wondering how they're going to be as second hand cars given that I'd much rather spend my hard-earned on skis and bikes...
I have a 11 year old campervan that has 150k on the clock. It rattles, the interior light sensors on the doors don't work and it is missing bulbs around the heating controls etc. Other than that it works if you want to pay about £500 per year repairing things that either have or are about to fall off. It will probably die eventually or rust will take over in about 5-10 years.
So the crux of the issue is that we are asking people to pay 40-50k for a vehicle that will be worth 1-2k in 10 years time. Most car buyers are in the sub 25k price bracket and not double this and this hard stop is a big issue for most. Those that like cars and status symbols will continue to buy these and those that have more interesting things to buy wont. The company car market is distorting the current market and making people think there is more appetite for electric vehicles that there really is. Don't get me wrong if I was offered a 40-50k EV as a company car I would not take long to bite their hand off. It would likely be the cheapest form of motoring for the last decade the way the current company car tax rate is calculated.
To go back to the Fully Charged / Nissan Leaf point above. On the fully charged show Robert paid £4k for a upgraded battery pack on his 11 year old leaf and it now has TWICE the range it had originally and again this is worse case scenario.
My EV has an 8 year warranty on the battery with no mileage limit listed - if after 8 years it holds less than 80% of its original charge its swapped for free.
And if after 8-10 years a EV owner needs to pay a grand or two to restore the failing cells they will be left with a car that has essentially the same engine as when it was new.
A 10 year old petrol or diesel car with high mileage will almost certainly have gone through numerous parts (clutch / dozens of oil changes / spark plugs / fan belts / coil packs / exhausts / sensors / possibly a gearbox etc etc - That lot will probably cost more over the years than the few grand for new battery cells. Not to mention that EV's tend to wear brakes and pads less (due to regen braking) and the saving for road tax each year, my last mid spec petrol car was £150 a year x 10 years means I would be saving £1500 just on tax (assuming EVs stay tax free).
On the tax issue we will be paying the same rate as ICE cars in 2030 as there will be so few ICE cars to generate the required money for.0 -
We will be paying tax per mile by then I think.john80 said:
I don't doubt you will have reduced running costs up to 10 years. When you replace the battery pack for the next 10 years how confident are you in all the other stuff in the car lasting ten years. I have done a lot of bangernomics in my time with £500 cars hoping to get a year out them.mr_eddy said:
I don't agree with this at all - older EV's (Nissan Leaf gen 1) had no battery management so no water cooling etc. Even still most still have over 80% battery life after 100k / 10 years (youtube Fully charged for Robert's Nissan leaf as a prime example). The reality is modern EV's deliberately stop you going to zero or full this is why they are listed as "50Kw/h battery - 45Kw/h usable" the battery management system holds back a bit at each end to ensure efficiency and with active cooling/heating the reality is modern EV batteries will last well past 100k and even when they do degrade a bit you simply swap out the cells that are failing - Not the entire battery pack! EV's use 100's or 1000's of cells are strung together. basically loads of laptop batteries connected together.john80 said:
I think the issue with EV's is the battery life. After ten years and a 100k miles there is likely to be either a complete failure or significantly reduced range. These may make the car scrap and therefore it is an asset for which you will receive maybe 1-2k for at the end of life if there is value in the batteries. If not 100 pounds.ddraver said:^^^^That's interesting.
I'm still wondering how they're going to be as second hand cars given that I'd much rather spend my hard-earned on skis and bikes...
I have a 11 year old campervan that has 150k on the clock. It rattles, the interior light sensors on the doors don't work and it is missing bulbs around the heating controls etc. Other than that it works if you want to pay about £500 per year repairing things that either have or are about to fall off. It will probably die eventually or rust will take over in about 5-10 years.
So the crux of the issue is that we are asking people to pay 40-50k for a vehicle that will be worth 1-2k in 10 years time. Most car buyers are in the sub 25k price bracket and not double this and this hard stop is a big issue for most. Those that like cars and status symbols will continue to buy these and those that have more interesting things to buy wont. The company car market is distorting the current market and making people think there is more appetite for electric vehicles that there really is. Don't get me wrong if I was offered a 40-50k EV as a company car I would not take long to bite their hand off. It would likely be the cheapest form of motoring for the last decade the way the current company car tax rate is calculated.
To go back to the Fully Charged / Nissan Leaf point above. On the fully charged show Robert paid £4k for a upgraded battery pack on his 11 year old leaf and it now has TWICE the range it had originally and again this is worse case scenario.
My EV has an 8 year warranty on the battery with no mileage limit listed - if after 8 years it holds less than 80% of its original charge its swapped for free.
And if after 8-10 years a EV owner needs to pay a grand or two to restore the failing cells they will be left with a car that has essentially the same engine as when it was new.
A 10 year old petrol or diesel car with high mileage will almost certainly have gone through numerous parts (clutch / dozens of oil changes / spark plugs / fan belts / coil packs / exhausts / sensors / possibly a gearbox etc etc - That lot will probably cost more over the years than the few grand for new battery cells. Not to mention that EV's tend to wear brakes and pads less (due to regen braking) and the saving for road tax each year, my last mid spec petrol car was £150 a year x 10 years means I would be saving £1500 just on tax (assuming EVs stay tax free).
On the tax issue we will be paying the same rate as ICE cars in 2030 as there will be so few ICE cars to generate the required money for.0 -
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I suppose my point was that yes EVs will still need maintaining with the likes of tyres, brakes etc but even factoring in replacing some cells in 10 years time the cost of maintaining will be on par with a ICE but you will have saved loads on tax, fuel and insurance (EVs are generally cheaper to insure as was the case for me by 20%)
I think you are correct tho at some point to make up lost revenue we will be charged based on usage and I think they will introduce a mandatory yearly garage visit to verify mileage and you will pay in arrears for the year before.
For me it was a simple decision based purely on cost. I pay £176 per month to lease a EV , the petrol version was £168 so basically the same but I would have paid £150 a year in tax and and extra £90 a year in insurance plus 12-15p per mile fuel.
Even with my modest 6-8k mileage a year I am saving around £70 a month on fuel alone so my actual monthly premium is around £100 when all things considered.
Another benefit is a 'service' for an EV is basically a safety check so for me that means £55 a year at a main dealer (lease company requires main dealer yearly service) compared to about £200 if it was petrol again another saving.
Plan is to have enough saved with man-maths to justify a new carbon wheelset in the summer !0 -
What EV do you have, out of interest?mr_eddy said:I suppose my point was that yes EVs will still need maintaining with the likes of tyres, brakes etc but even factoring in replacing some cells in 10 years time the cost of maintaining will be on par with a ICE but you will have saved loads on tax, fuel and insurance (EVs are generally cheaper to insure as was the case for me by 20%)
I think you are correct tho at some point to make up lost revenue we will be charged based on usage and I think they will introduce a mandatory yearly garage visit to verify mileage and you will pay in arrears for the year before.
For me it was a simple decision based purely on cost. I pay £176 per month to lease a EV , the petrol version was £168 so basically the same but I would have paid £150 a year in tax and and extra £90 a year in insurance plus 12-15p per mile fuel.
Even with my modest 6-8k mileage a year I am saving around £70 a month on fuel alone so my actual monthly premium is around £100 when all things considered.
Another benefit is a 'service' for an EV is basically a safety check so for me that means £55 a year at a main dealer (lease company requires main dealer yearly service) compared to about £200 if it was petrol again another saving.
Plan is to have enough saved with man-maths to justify a new carbon wheelset in the summer !
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What colour of Halfords paint pen do you use to repair scratches though?0
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Black or white by the look of it. I can see the potential of it for other products in terms of information.0
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I do have a craving now for an intermittent zebra bike frame.0
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mr_eddy said:john80 said:
Most vehicle traction batteries are a highly complex sealed structural element of the vehicle and basically a single component. "Swapping out a few cells" is a serious misunderstanding of what they are. The "Battery" generally consists of "modules" that in turn contain the "cells". The cells are fixed in some form of framework and glued/sealed in position for integrity. It'd be a destructive process to replace cells. Often cell/module packs are selected for matching parameters before building into the battery so special software is needed to re-parameterise the battery controller module - and you also end up with "old" and "new" cells in the same battery that causes issues. Given that the battery voltages are high voltage DC (400V, 800V and even higher these days), doing any work on the traction/HV side is potentially EXTREMELY dangerous and requires special training and tools. This is leagues away from a "bit of a flash" with a 12V batteryddraver said:
I think the issue with EV's is the battery life. After ten years and a 100k miles there is likely to be either a complete failure or significantly reduced range. These may make the car scrap and therefore it is an asset for which you will receive maybe 1-2k for at the end of life if there is value in the batteries. If not 100 pounds.
And if after 8-10 years a EV owner needs to pay a grand or two to restore the failing cells they will be left with a car that has essentially the same engine as when it was new.
This is a reason why "what do we do with old batteries" is a problem and using them for static power storage etc is considered
However they are the "future" and in a few years we won't even think of the issues and as said EV are very simple in comparison to an IC vehicle
As an aside - the animation a few posts ago of what an IC engine does just shows what a fantastic engineering achievement is to make something with that many precision parts go up and down and round and round for 10+ years and 150000 miles plus. (Spoken as someone who has worked on IC engines for 35+ years I'll be sad to see them gone)0 -
Just clicked through 80000 miles on my 2019 plate diesel. Still absolutely no reasonably priced electric/hybrid car or van alternative that could possibly replace it.0
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My old 944 has done 154,000 miles. (MOT soon after a 2 and a half year restoration job - wahey!). I know an indie porker specialist who are servicing Porkers with over 300k on the clock.
On the MB UK forum, there was a story of 2 Greek brothers who ran a Merc W123 230e to over 2 million miles. They ran the car 24/7 in shifts. Mercedes replaced the engine as a gesture of goodwill and the car was still going the last I heard.
If you think about it, the internal combustion engine has received more engineering attention than any other mechanical device.
A quote from the same forum:
"Well, here is a useless bit of trivia for you. The highest ever recorded mileage on ANY car was recorded on a Mercedes 190E. Believe it or not, it reached just over 3,300,000 miles.................yes, 3.3 million miles. it was all on 1 engine and 1 gearbox. Now that is impressive.".seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
I'd be interested in seeing the stats excluding company vehicles.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Interesting that the Tesla model 3 despite it's price (£42k), is 2nd in the list amongst cars that range from £16k (Yaris) to the Corsa (15k), Mercedes A class £23k.
That may underline PB's point.
seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
I'm slightly dubious about those stats. I've only seen a handful of Ford Pumas compared to countless Golfs, Qashqais, Fiestas, 3 Series BMWs. I appreciate the Puma is a new model and many of the others will have older versions on the road but that one stands out as odd.
I was also surprised to see the Fiesta had been top for years as whilst I see loads there seem to be a lot more of some other models. Maybe they're more prevalent in big cities where smaller cars are beneficial?0 -
I think the Tesla was available as a very attractive salary sacrifice rate in the NHS.0
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I am glad to read this. I thought it was only the facts I referred to that Pross doubted.Pross said:I'm slightly dubious about those stats. I've only seen a handful of Ford Pumas compared to countless Golfs, Qashqais, Fiestas, 3 Series BMWs. I appreciate the Puma is a new model and many of the others will have older versions on the road but that one stands out as odd.
I was also surprised to see the Fiesta had been top for years as whilst I see loads there seem to be a lot more of some other models. Maybe they're more prevalent in big cities where smaller cars are beneficial?
It is probably all the 5G phone signals that make a Corsa look like a Fiesta when it passes his front door.
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I'm more interested as to whether people would call the Kia Sportage "Sportahj" (as in French 'fromage') or "Sportidge".0
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Re the Puma it'd be easy to miss them they are a very anonymous looking car. I only realised they were a current model last week when I was walking the dogs and thought the Fiesta looks to have put on a bit of weight.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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You were slightly annoyed and bored by the subject of cars popping up in other threads and so you created this one.briantrumpet said:I'm more interested as to whether people would call the Kia Sportage "Sportahj" (as in French 'fromage') or "Sportidge".
And you are bored!?seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
I'm not answering your question until you answer mine ..pinno said:
You were slightly annoyed and bored by the subject of cars popping up in other threads and so you created this one.briantrumpet said:I'm more interested as to whether people would call the Kia Sportage "Sportahj" (as in French 'fromage') or "Sportidge".
And you are bored!?
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Bah humbug.briantrumpet said:
I'm not answering your question until you answer mine ..pinno said:
You were slightly annoyed and bored by the subject of cars popping up in other threads and so you created this one.briantrumpet said:I'm more interested as to whether people would call the Kia Sportage "Sportahj" (as in French 'fromage') or "Sportidge".
And you are bored!?
Which question was that?seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Only ever heard it rhyme with fromage.briantrumpet said:I'm more interested as to whether people would call the Kia Sportage "Sportahj" (as in French 'fromage') or "Sportidge".
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It's an outrage.Pross said:
Only ever heard it rhyme with fromage.briantrumpet said:I'm more interested as to whether people would call the Kia Sportage "Sportahj" (as in French 'fromage') or "Sportidge".
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The one Pross answered.pinno said:
Bah humbug.briantrumpet said:
I'm not answering your question until you answer mine ..pinno said:
You were slightly annoyed and bored by the subject of cars popping up in other threads and so you created this one.briantrumpet said:I'm more interested as to whether people would call the Kia Sportage "Sportahj" (as in French 'fromage') or "Sportidge".
And you are bored!?
Which question was that?0 -
You then confused me.briantrumpet said:
The one Pross answered.pinno said:
Bah humbug.briantrumpet said:
I'm not answering your question until you answer mine ..pinno said:
You were slightly annoyed and bored by the subject of cars popping up in other threads and so you created this one.briantrumpet said:I'm more interested as to whether people would call the Kia Sportage "Sportahj" (as in French 'fromage') or "Sportidge".
And you are bored!?
Which question was that?
I was with Pross but now you've made me think. Please stop doing that.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
I pronounce it "Sportage".briantrumpet said:
I'm not answering your question until you answer mine ..pinno said:
You were slightly annoyed and bored by the subject of cars popping up in other threads and so you created this one.briantrumpet said:I'm more interested as to whether people would call the Kia Sportage "Sportahj" (as in French 'fromage') or "Sportidge".
And you are bored!?
Hope that helps.0 -
Got any footage?First.Aspect said:
I pronounce it "Sportage".briantrumpet said:
I'm not answering your question until you answer mine ..pinno said:
You were slightly annoyed and bored by the subject of cars popping up in other threads and so you created this one.briantrumpet said:I'm more interested as to whether people would call the Kia Sportage "Sportahj" (as in French 'fromage') or "Sportidge".
And you are bored!?
Hope that helps.0 -
There’s some on an old reel in my garage. I’ll have the old mage resurrect the projector for you, so we can share your umbrage.briantrumpet said:
Got any footage?First.Aspect said:
I pronounce it "Sportage".briantrumpet said:
I'm not answering your question until you answer mine ..pinno said:
You were slightly annoyed and bored by the subject of cars popping up in other threads and so you created this one.briantrumpet said:I'm more interested as to whether people would call the Kia Sportage "Sportahj" (as in French 'fromage') or "Sportidge".
And you are bored!?
Hope that helps.
Might be rough though, seeing through the fake tree bough made from old dough, and someone always coughs to spoil the mood.
Are there more?
Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxkIo-2Jzzo
