The End Of Campagnolo?

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

I don't understand the argument about being able to quickly dump gears. In reality, the speed of shifting is limited by rotation of the cassette wrt the chain. And you can easily shift fast enough with shimano.

Also, I ride a campag on some of the UKs most sudden terrain (Dartmoor) and I still haven't found a gradient change severe enough to require 5 shifts in one go. I've only ever used it after coasting downhill for a while.

So the disadvantage of not being able to reach the thumb lever with my thumb, when my hand is in the position I want it for 99% of the time is a bit of an issue and rather outweighs the advantage conveyed by the longer ratchet throw.

There are definitely a few geezers I used to encounter on the London commute who would drop a lot of gears when arriving at the lights.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

I don't understand the argument about being able to quickly dump gears. In reality, the speed of shifting is limited by rotation of the cassette wrt the chain. And you can easily shift fast enough with shimano.

Also, I ride a campag on some of the UKs most sudden terrain (Dartmoor) and I still haven't found a gradient change severe enough to require 5 shifts in one go. I've only ever used it after coasting downhill for a while.

So the disadvantage of not being able to reach the thumb lever with my thumb, when my hand is in the position I want it for 99% of the time is a bit of an issue and rather outweighs the advantage conveyed by the longer ratchet throw.

There are definitely a few geezers I used to encounter on the London commute who would drop a lot of gears when arriving at the lights.

This. You don't really want to be dropping huge jumps on a climb as it's a good way to introduce cramp from experience. Nice to be able to make the big jump up on cresting though.
Also reaching the button is easy from any position for me, but then I have fairly compact bars. I could see an issue if bars with a big drop are fitted.

rick_chasey

Just hares to reel in whilst I was on my SS 👍🏻

davebradswmb

First.Aspect said:

I don't understand the argument about being able to quickly dump gears. In reality, the speed of shifting is limited by rotation of the cassette wrt the chain. And you can easily shift fast enough with shimano.

The time I find it most useful is when I have run out of gears on the small ring and I can change to the next available ratio on the big ring with just one push on both thumb levers. It's also nice to be able to jump 2 or 3 sprockets with just one push.

davidof

First.Aspect said:

So the disadvantage of not being able to reach the thumb lever with my thumb, when my hand is in the position I want it for 99% of the time is a bit of an issue and rather outweighs the advantage conveyed by the longer ratchet throw.

Ergonomics is an entirely valid reason for not liking something.

DeVlaeminck

Anyone here used 11 speed EPS?

I've always been mechanical but was looking at a NOS Basso with EPS on eBay - it's putting me off a bit as I'd be planning in keeping the bike a long time and being a bit of a luddite (who already has a Chorus 11 group in decent nick) I'm a bit concerned about support for older electronic groups.

pblakeney

DeVlaeminck said:

Anyone here used 11 speed EPS?

I've always been mechanical but was looking at a NOS Basso with EPS on eBay - it's putting me off a bit as I'd be planning in keeping the bike a long time and being a bit of a luddite (who already has a Chorus 11 group in decent nick) I'm a bit concerned about support for older electronic groups.

Fit your mechanical and sell on the electronic?
Could be a decent earner, if the new bike allows mechanical cable routing.

My big issue with modern design is how quickly "new" becomes "obsolete" and full system purchases are required when one component fails.

thegreatdivide

Just stock up on new bits on eBay as spares. I’ve already bagged SR and R EPS shifters, a front mech and power unit for buttons compared to original RRP. It should keep my EPS bike going for another decade at least.

alwaystimetotorque

DeVlaeminck said:

Anyone here used 11 speed EPS?

I've always been mechanical but was looking at a NOS Basso with EPS on eBay - it's putting me off a bit as I'd be planning in keeping the bike a long time and being a bit of a luddite (who already has a Chorus 11 group in decent nick) I'm a bit concerned about support for older electronic groups.

Is this one on Swinnerton cycles? If so it looked to me that it was a but of a botch of old stock parts as it had H11 chainset with record EPS. Note that H11 replacement chainrings are expensive and hard to come by given that the outer can't be substituted with standard 4 arm rings.
Doing the sums on what you can get the frame for it looked to me like you'd be better off buying the frame and kitting out with 12 speed Chorus perhaps.

DeVlaeminck

Think it was chicken cycles - probably won't bother tbh it's still 4k I don't really need to spend.

alwaystimetotorque

Think they were similarly priced as well - didn't appear to be great value for a discontinued groupset anyway

thegreatdivide

https://www.bike-eu.com/market/nieuws/2022/01/davide-campagnolo-current-market-situation-offers-positive-outlook-for-the-industry-10142058

"“For the fiscal year June 2020 to May 2021 the Campagnolo Group reported an increase in turnover of 37%. The biggest part of the growth came from demand for Campagnolo group sets. And that came as a big surprise for us. Campagnolo was always the niche brand and a class on its own. Now we see more and more new people experiencing our products. This is a good chance for us, and the bicycle brands have understood that as well. As a result, demand is skyrocketing."

And that folks is what you call a mic drop.

davidof

thegreatdivide said:

https://www.bike-eu.com/market/nieuws/2022/01/davide-campagnolo-current-market-situation-offers-positive-outlook-for-the-industry-10142058

"“For the fiscal year June 2020 to May 2021 the Campagnolo Group reported an increase in turnover of 37%. The biggest part of the growth came from demand for Campagnolo group sets. And that came as a big surprise for us. Campagnolo was always the niche brand and a class on its own. Now we see more and more new people experiencing our products. This is a good chance for us, and the bicycle brands have understood that as well. As a result, demand is skyrocketing."

And that folks is what you call a mic drop.

It was easier to get Campag gruppos during the covid crisis due to the shorter supply chains (Made in Europe). Will this continue?

What are the profits like?

thegreatdivide

Have you read the interview?

MidlandsGrimpeur2

What are the profits like?

Lower, but as the interviewee says, this is down to increased material costs. The increased revenue has offset this for the time being.

I think everyone knows campag will always be around. They don't really see themselves in competition with Shimano and Sram, they have their own niche in the market and a dedicated customer base.

Other bike companies have always pushed the idea that campag's lack of global production capabilities would finish them, looks as though it has been a major benefit in the covid era.

MattFalle

Ekar has slso been a massive success for them.

Essentially they are knocking out the best performing groupsets but remaining niche as people seem obsessed with di2 .....

andyrac

Yeah, Ekar has been rather successful, which may have surprised some people - and their first foray into 'off road' groupsets since their ill fated MTB groupsets.

pinno

andyrac said:

Yeah, Ekar has been rather successful, which may have surprised some people - and their first foray into 'off road' groupsets since their ill fated MTB groupsets.

Yes, the Euclid. Had they nailed that gruppo, their share of the market might be quite different today.

Campag is the dog's dangly wotsits.
Love the bearings, love the gear changes, love the aesthetics, love the feel of it and it still has endurance.
I ride Record. I'll always be prepared to pay that extra for it.

MattFalle

pinno said:

andyrac said:

Yeah, Ekar has been rather successful, which may have surprised some people - and their first foray into 'off road' groupsets since their ill fated MTB groupsets.

Yes, the Euclid. Had they nailed that gruppo, their share of the market might be quite different today.

Campag is the dog's dangly wotsits.
Love the bearings, love the gear changes, love the aesthetics, love the feel of it and it still has endurance.
I ride Record. I'll always be prepared to pay that extra for it.

Pinno is correct in everything he says.

None of the MFs can personally understand why people - generally clubbies - work themselves up into a mastubatoryclimax over di2 when Record and SR and Corus shift just as well - if not better - are lighter, look better, last longer, are repairable......

First.Aspect

Campag would need to get on to more complete bikes to really make an impact. That's how people start out with shimano. Then they stay with it for compatibility. Sram were smart enough to share wheel compatibility for the most part.

davidof

pinno said:

Yes, the Euclid. Had they nailed that gruppo, their share of the market might be quite different today.

I think the brakes were the big issue with Euclid. Funky heavy levers and brakes that were prone to mud clogging - like Shimano U Brakes (I still have a U brake on my work bike, it sucks). The equivalent suntour level was elegance itself at the time and they already made canti's didn't they? The rest was ok but probably pricey and they didn't have the reputation in the new market.

thegreatdivide

Yip, definitely the end.

https://www.bikebiz.com/campagnolo-unveils-new-dream-bigger-brand-positioning-amid-record-growth/

They're seemingly releasing something this Friday (29/04). I reckon they're just going to say that due to their record 45% increase in the OEM market last year it's time to call it quits.

joeyhalloran

"OEM partnership sales in financial year 2022 are projected to represent 45% of the company’s turnover, a five-fold increase in absolute terms since financial year 2019."

So is Campag desirably enough that when Shimano and Sram get back on track with manufacturing the product managers at those OEM companies won't go revert away from Campag? A five-fold increase is ridiculous, but the years from 2019-2022 were very far from 'normal'

pblakeney

joeyhalloran said:

"OEM partnership sales in financial year 2022 are projected to represent 45% of the company’s turnover, a five-fold increase in absolute terms since financial year 2019."

So is Campag desirably enough that when Shimano and Sram get back on track with manufacturing the product managers at those OEM companies won't go revert away from Campag? A five-fold increase is ridiculous, but the years from 2019-2022 were very far from 'normal'

This is broadly true but 2019 was fairly normal.

thegreatdivide

It's already been said on here but Ekar has been a game changer for them. Sure they had a good innings during the pandemic, but the groupset isn't just being stuck on new bikes because there's a lack of the others. The brands want it on their gravel frames. Personally I reckon we're going to see something off-road related released on Friday, but I doubt it'll be an electronic Ekar. MTB Ekar maybe?

rick_chasey

What is Ekar and why is it special?

thegreatdivide

rick_chasey said:

What is Ekar and why is it special?

https://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/Mechanical_Groupsets/ekar/gravel2

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/reviews/10501/campagnolo-ekar-groupset-review

rick_chasey

What's the advantage of running a single upfront?

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

What's the advantage of running a single upfront?

Didn't you get the memo? Doubles are so last decade.
Or, marketing BS.

joeyhalloran

The new thing could be a powermeter