The End Of Campagnolo?
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we love a good thumbing.rick_chasey said:
Tbf the parts are available as there are only a small amount of people who will pay those prices.MattFalle said:
Campag also lasts longer because its better engineered, serviceable and all parts are available as opposed to the disposable nature of Shimano.MattFalle said:
what is better, offhand, because its late and I want to go to bed is:PMark said:For the people that say Campag is noticeably better than Shimano R8000, it would be help to specify what exactly is better. Because it isn't as though Campag haven't made substandard group sets before. For example, one of the previous 10 speed group sets had parts in the shifting mechanism for the front derailleur made out of plastic (these are generally made out of metal or carbon). So they would sometimes break when changing gear, instantly converting your bike into a 1x setup.
Unless things have changed now and Campag is just using more expensive materials than Shimano, I don't see how one high end mechanical setup can be better than another. Shimano have very good quality control/consistency and do over engineer their components, to the point where even the highest level products aren't always the lightest, but will generally last a lot longer.
design/functionality
shifter size - smaller
shifter shape
hood material
smoother gears going up
smoother gears going down
far better multiple shifting
lighter over all
complete aesthetics of the groupset
better brakes
doesn't feel that its made of plastic
more reliable - doesn't fall apart like 8000
serviceable
rebuildable
no pointless design features for no reason like the 8000 front mech
far nicer and more pleasurable to work on and use
the barrel adjuster on the rear mech by itself is far nicer designed, far better aesthetically and miles ahead in functionality than the whole of the 8000 groupset by itself.
😜
Do the shifters still have that protruding thumb switch?.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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So if you’ve got smaller hands, you can’t always reach that with your thumb if you are in the drops, if it’s same design.0
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fair statement..
The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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You know what they say about men with small hands.....
...they can't reach the thumb shifter. 😉The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Sorry but that's utter BS. It's a tired old cut-and-paste forum comment whenever Campagnolo pitches up in a discussion. The thumb shifters and small hands complaint is a total and utter myth. I'm a short ar$e with wee hands, and almost exclusively use Campagnolo on my bikes. I've got even shorter female friends who run it without any shifting issues. On the Pro side, 5'5" Caleb Ewan doesn't seem to have a problems shifting and winning, and a fair number of women's teams use Campagnolo.rick_chasey said:So if you’ve got smaller hands, you can’t always reach that with your thumb if you are in the drops, if it’s same design.
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It's an interesting one. Campagnolo's problem was that back when they were dominant, in the 1970s/1980s, up until Shimano released the first indexed DA, they utterly, utterly failed to innovate or develop new product. Just sat back and counted their money.
They then tried to respond with stuff like Delta, which was a disaster, because the didn't have the R&D heritage to keep reinventing themselves.
Now, it's all about catch up and stupid cr&p like adding an extra speed. Their lower-end offerings are either hopelessly outdated and irrelevant, or just not good enough.
However, Ekar has shown that when they really think about it, they can do great things. It's proving popular, crucially including on OEM bikes. Odd, because their supposed 'heritage' is irrelevant - they need to bin that whole "we used to be great" marketing dross.
My suggestion? They need to get bigger, oddly, to give them that R&D clout. SRAM is part of a bigger group, Shimano has fishing and other products, Campag is a bit of an outlier.
It's just a hill. Get over it.0 -
Stupid crap that the other two eventually copy themselves, albeit hopelessly late like Shimano.secretsam said:Now, it's all about catch up and stupid cr&p like adding an extra speed.
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I can see why Caleb can reach them. He's all thumbs and no fingers!thegreatdivide said:
Sorry but that's utter BS. It's a tired old cut-and-paste forum comment whenever Campagnolo pitches up in a discussion. The thumb shifters and small hands complaint is a total and utter myth. I'm a short ar$e with wee hands, and almost exclusively use Campagnolo on my bikes. I've got even shorter female friends who run it without any shifting issues. On the Pro side, 5'5" Caleb Ewan doesn't seem to have a problems shifting and winning, and a fair number of women's teams use Campagnolo.rick_chasey said:So if you’ve got smaller hands, you can’t always reach that with your thumb if you are in the drops, if it’s same design.
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It's a shame Elon Musk doesn't make a groupset? They'd be like well fantastical.0
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thegreatdivide said:
Sorry but that's utter BS. It's a tired old cut-and-paste forum comment whenever Campagnolo pitches up in a discussion. The thumb shifters and small hands complaint is a total and utter myth. I'm a short ar$e with wee hands, and almost exclusively use Campagnolo on my bikes. I've got even shorter female friends who run it without any shifting issues. On the Pro side, 5'5" Caleb Ewan doesn't seem to have a problems shifting and winning, and a fair number of women's teams use Campagnolo.rick_chasey said:So if you’ve got smaller hands, you can’t always reach that with your thumb if you are in the drops, if it’s same design.
shorter female friends?
.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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I bet with Musk's groupset there wouldn't be shifters, it would be done electronically with your mind.0
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All cycling stuff is disposable these days. The moment the pros start to use something new / improved the hopeful masses just have to have it. This is especially true of triathletes. As a group they all believe you can just buy it and be faster. Road cyclists are not far behind in this way of thinking. It's really quite sad that people believe that Campy, Shimano, or Sram won the TDF when in actuality it was a real person / human being. Of course these people realize that they have nowhere near the talent to be a great racer, so they buy whatever their hero tells them to buy and dream on.MattFalle said:
Campag also lasts longer because its better engineered, serviceable and all parts are available as opposed to the disposable nature of Shimano.MattFalle said:
what is better, offhand, because its late and I want to go to bed is:PMark said:For the people that say Campag is noticeably better than Shimano R8000, it would be help to specify what exactly is better. Because it isn't as though Campag haven't made substandard group sets before. For example, one of the previous 10 speed group sets had parts in the shifting mechanism for the front derailleur made out of plastic (these are generally made out of metal or carbon). So they would sometimes break when changing gear, instantly converting your bike into a 1x setup.
Unless things have changed now and Campag is just using more expensive materials than Shimano, I don't see how one high end mechanical setup can be better than another. Shimano have very good quality control/consistency and do over engineer their components, to the point where even the highest level products aren't always the lightest, but will generally last a lot longer.
design/functionality
shifter size - smaller
shifter shape
hood material
smoother gears going up
smoother gears going down
far better multiple shifting
lighter over all
complete aesthetics of the groupset
better brakes
doesn't feel that its made of plastic
more reliable - doesn't fall apart like 8000
serviceable
rebuildable
no pointless design features for no reason like the 8000 front mech
far nicer and more pleasurable to work on and use
the barrel adjuster on the rear mech by itself is far nicer designed, far better aesthetically and miles ahead in functionality than the whole of the 8000 groupset by itself.
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Sounds like 10 year old hero worship to me.focuszing723 said:It's a shame Elon Musk doesn't make a groupset? They'd be like well fantastical.
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Irony Dennis look it up or google “taking the urine”0
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oh its Dennis. He's always like this. Look at him on the "carbs or protein" thread.
just pat him on the head and wslk on..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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To my mind it happened before that, when Shimano / Suntour redesigned the rear mech to track the rear cluster/cogs better.secretsam said:It's an interesting one. Campagnolo's problem was that back when they were dominant, in the 1970s/1980s, up until Shimano released the first indexed DA
That was the beginning of the end of the mass market.
Kudos to Campag for having survived though, not many European manufacturers have.
BTW I ride Campag equipped bikes. 1 for the heritage (Chorus) and the other because it was cheaper to build up than Shimano and it works better and looks nicer (Potenza vs Ultegra).
But the bike I rode to work today is Shimano - a 1980s Muddy Fox with Deore
BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme2 -
"Back in the day", as in the 70's and even early 80's, if you had Nouvo Record BB cups with a titanium axle, a Nouvo Record head set and either Record or Super Record components, if you looked after that stuff, especially the hub and bearing and races, they'd last for ever. Literally.pblakeney said:I remember a time when you could go years without anything new of note being released. Simpler times.
In the distant future, long after humanity as disappeared from the planet, aliens will arrive, and they'll discover buried under a heap of rubble, or inside a long abandoned garage, an old bike with those components on it. They'll pick it up, spin the wheels, turn the crank and wonder in awe how humanity screwed up so much, but got that right.
That being said, I've used nothing but Campagnolo on my road bikes since the late 70's, including the various incarnations of the Record/Super Record and C-Record groups Cobalto and Delta brakes), back to the Record only groupo in the early 2000's and now 11 sp Record. I'm not leaping at disc or electronic versions though.1 -
davidof said:
The design of the first Shimano Ace Derailleurs was better than the Nuovo Record, but the mechanical/build quality was poor, at least in the seventies.
I owned one of these (top foto) and it didn't survive 2 seasons of racing, replaced it for a Campy Nuovo Record, which I stll own today aftyer 45 years and it works still perfectly.
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I think the comments on this thread back up my theory that nobody under 40 rides Campag unless they are paid to. People in their 60s might wax lyrical about 1980s groupsets, but that won't shift current 12 speed groupsets.
They are just going to get more and more niche until they can crack the OEM market. Which means supplying the things that bike manufacturers want to sell, which is affordable electronic with discs.
It might be marketing, it might not be better than well set up mechanical, but it sells, and if you don't sell, you don't stay in business.
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Sounds like you need some romance and panache in your life. Go to Italy, take a tour of Colnago and Campagnolo, then go to Taiwan, tour some factories, get some industrial history. Let us know what you think.super_davo said:I think the comments on this thread back up my theory that nobody under 40 rides Campag unless they are paid to. People in their 60s might wax lyrical about 1980s groupsets, but that won't shift current 12 speed groupsets.
They are just going to get more and more niche until they can crack the OEM market. Which means supplying the things that bike manufacturers want to sell, which is affordable electronic with discs.
It might be marketing, it might not be better than well set up mechanical, but it sells, and if you don't sell, you don't stay in business.
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At the end of the 1950s, Campagnolo started to manufacture magnesium parts such as wheels for sports cars like Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Maserati, and built chassis for NASA satellites in 1969. In 1963, Campagnolo produced a disc brake for the Innocenti Lambretta TV motorscooter - the first two-wheel production vehicle with such a brake. In the 1970s they also supplied wheels for Ferrari's Formula One cars.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campagnolo
Interesting.0 -
I am half Italian, my parents live there, I am very familiar with Italian cycling history.jaredpurdy1960 said:
Sounds like you need some romance and panache in your life. Go to Italy, take a tour of Colnago and Campagnolo, then go to Taiwan, tour some factories, get some industrial history. Let us know what you think.super_davo said:I think the comments on this thread back up my theory that nobody under 40 rides Campag unless they are paid to. People in their 60s might wax lyrical about 1980s groupsets, but that won't shift current 12 speed groupsets.
They are just going to get more and more niche until they can crack the OEM market. Which means supplying the things that bike manufacturers want to sell, which is affordable electronic with discs.
It might be marketing, it might not be better than well set up mechanical, but it sells, and if you don't sell, you don't stay in business.
I have an Italian bike, and a bike with Campag that works very well but I don't ride much, and I'm over 40.
Still doesn't stop the world moving on...0 -
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I will accept that the world has moved on once Campagnolo shuts up shop.super_davo said:
...jaredpurdy1960 said:
Sounds like you need some romance and panache in your life. Go to Italy, take a tour of Colnago and Campagnolo, then go to Taiwan, tour some factories, get some industrial history. Let us know what you think.super_davo said:I think the comments on this thread back up my theory that nobody under 40 rides Campag unless they are paid to. People in their 60s might wax lyrical about 1980s groupsets, but that won't shift current 12 speed groupsets.
They are just going to get more and more niche until they can crack the OEM market. Which means supplying the things that bike manufacturers want to sell, which is affordable electronic with discs.
It might be marketing, it might not be better than well set up mechanical, but it sells, and if you don't sell, you don't stay in business.
Still doesn't stop the world moving on...
Till then it is just internet musings.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
Not everything needs to change. A lot of people are into retro, that's why Cinelli and Colnago still offer their steel master pieces, the Corsa and the Master. And there are many other custom steel frame builders out there. Having components that work on those frames is a requisite!!super_davo said:
I am half Italian, my parents live there, I am very familiar with Italian cycling history.jaredpurdy1960 said:
Sounds like you need some romance and panache in your life. Go to Italy, take a tour of Colnago and Campagnolo, then go to Taiwan, tour some factories, get some industrial history. Let us know what you think.super_davo said:I think the comments on this thread back up my theory that nobody under 40 rides Campag unless they are paid to. People in their 60s might wax lyrical about 1980s groupsets, but that won't shift current 12 speed groupsets.
They are just going to get more and more niche until they can crack the OEM market. Which means supplying the things that bike manufacturers want to sell, which is affordable electronic with discs.
It might be marketing, it might not be better than well set up mechanical, but it sells, and if you don't sell, you don't stay in business.
I have an Italian bike, and a bike with Campag that works very well but I don't ride much, and I'm over 40.
Still doesn't stop the world moving on...
At the rate Campy is going, they won't even have rim brakes in the near future. All of that old stuff that Campy use to make was built to last forever - with the exception of chains - and it would if you knew how to take care of it.
I see nothing wrong with modern refinements, but not to the detriment of previous generations. Not all of us need or even want electronic shifting. When I heard that 13 gears is the new norm I literally just rolled my eyes.
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I totally agree that there is still a market, it's just going to be a continually reducing market unless they get new people interested.
Which I don't think they are - in my experience the people using Campag are the ones that were using Campag 10 years ago and the people who started since use Shimano or SRAM. And lots of people who used Campag 10 years ago have shifted over (myself included) as just too much hassle. It's getting worse as bikes get more integrated and hard to work on. The retro market evolves, today's high tech is tomorrow's retro.
It's not the end of Campag per se. But it's a key point if they want to remain a serious player in the racing market (which their pro sponsorship suggests they do)0 -
I ride with someone who over summer was riding Campag super record. I was surprised at the number of times it does that thing it goes up one sprocket but it has done 2 clicks on the shifter. So you can hear it not being quite in gear.
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