Afghanistan

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  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,660
    TheBigBean said:

    pangolin said:

    elbowloh said:

    Don't know why the US abducted them, they could just as easily targeted them in a drone strike or even killed them by "accident" as collateral damage...

    Because they wanted them to give them intel. Hard to interrogate a corpse.
    They did get lots of made up intel from the torture. This is the reason it is not considered effective - people tend to say anything to end the pain. One detainee invented a terror plot, but that only got him more torture as the details were lacking while being drowned.
    Yes I'm not saying torture is a good idea, thanks.
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    Which is why the UK has had to compensate some victims.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    So when you said “not really” to Britain being involved, you meant “actually yes they were”?

    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    rick_chasey said:

    So when you said “not really” to Britain being involved, you meant “actually yes they were”?

    Not really in the way you were getting at, but the rest of that sentence was about the compensation that the UK has paid, so fairly clear I would have thought.

    For example, the UK allowed refueling of rendition flights. Fundamentally wrong and shameful, but not quite on the same level as abducting the person off the street, torturing and detaining for years.

    The UK also applied a lot of political pressure to get the detained Brits released.
  • mully79
    mully79 Posts: 904
    The word "intelligence" suggests a James Bond type spy tipped off the Allies but in reality someone probably got tortured for info on the suicide bombers who got hit by a drone this week.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    mully79 said:

    The word "intelligence" suggests a James Bond type spy tipped off the Allies but in reality someone probably got tortured for info on the suicide bombers who got hit by a drone this week.

    Is that the reason they seem to have killed the wrong people?
  • mully79
    mully79 Posts: 904
    TheBigBean said:

    mully79 said:

    The word "intelligence" suggests a James Bond type spy tipped off the Allies but in reality someone probably got tortured for info on the suicide bombers who got hit by a drone this week.

    Is that the reason they seem to have killed the wrong people?
    "They" could be anyone with access to American weapons caches obtained during the withdrawl.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,226
    mully79 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    mully79 said:

    The word "intelligence" suggests a James Bond type spy tipped off the Allies but in reality someone probably got tortured for info on the suicide bombers who got hit by a drone this week.

    Is that the reason they seem to have killed the wrong people?
    "They" could be anyone with access to American weapons caches obtained during the withdrawl.
    You don't pay attention to the news much then?
  • mully79
    mully79 Posts: 904
    kingstongraham said:

    mully79 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    mully79 said:

    The word "intelligence" suggests a James Bond type spy tipped off the Allies but in reality someone probably got tortured for info on the suicide bombers who got hit by a drone this week.

    Is that the reason they seem to have killed the wrong people?
    "They" could be anyone with access to American weapons caches obtained during the withdrawl.
    You don't pay attention to the news much then?
    Which news ?
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,226
    Worth a read.

    https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?uri=nyt://newsletter/d0fb31b1-4ad7-5fee-b84d-deeb6da58ede&productCode=INT&te=1&nl=the-interpreter&emc=edit_int_20210903
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    kingstongraham said:

    Worth a read.

    https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?uri=nyt://newsletter/d0fb31b1-4ad7-5fee-b84d-deeb6da58ede&productCode=INT&te=1&nl=the-interpreter&emc=edit_int_20210903

    I feel like this is what I have said a lot. There is an urban/rural divide and many people are happy to have peace and less corruption.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Worth a read.

    https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?uri=nyt://newsletter/d0fb31b1-4ad7-5fee-b84d-deeb6da58ede&productCode=INT&te=1&nl=the-interpreter&emc=edit_int_20210903

    I feel like this is what I have said a lot. There is an urban/rural divide and many people are happy to have peace and less corruption.
    One of the few areas in which we agree.

    Does nobody else see the similarities with Brexit?

    They are even talking about food shortages and empty shelves
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    surrey_commuter said:



    One of the few areas in which we agree.

    I was starting to wonder if someone had hacked your account. I'll add Afghanistan to football as matters on which we agree. I'll defer to you on WW2 and military generals.
  • Ncovidius
    Ncovidius Posts: 229
    A lot of guys I knock around with have been out in the sand pit. They are pretty much all in agreement that the ‘ Afghans’ have totally betrayed the world, by running for the hills, at the first sign of trouble. It’s verrrrry complicated, based on tribal loyalties, and hard to understand. But to cut a long story short, the Afghan ‘authorities’ have taken our money and experience, and sold us down the river.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    mully79 said:

    The word "intelligence" suggests a James Bond type spy tipped off the Allies but in reality someone probably got tortured for info on the suicide bombers who got hit by a drone this week.

    You've been watching too many ww2 movies - "Ve haf veys of making you talk" and all that.

    Intelligence gathering is a bit more sophisticated these days.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Ncovidius said:

    A lot of guys I knock around with have been out in the sand pit. They are pretty much all in agreement that the ‘ Afghans’ have totally betrayed the world, by running for the hills, at the first sign of trouble. It’s verrrrry complicated, based on tribal loyalties, and hard to understand. But to cut a long story short, the Afghan ‘authorities’ have taken our money and experience, and sold us down the river.

    Are your guys soldiers or officers?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    shirley_basso said:

    Ncovidius said:

    A lot of guys I knock around with have been out in the sand pit. They are pretty much all in agreement that the ‘ Afghans’ have totally betrayed the world, by running for the hills, at the first sign of trouble. It’s verrrrry complicated, based on tribal loyalties, and hard to understand. But to cut a long story short, the Afghan ‘authorities’ have taken our money and experience, and sold us down the river.

    Are your guys soldiers or officers?
    Nick was in the SAS you know. Or was it MI6. Or maybe it was Ghost Recon. He can't talk about it. So he makes it up instead...
  • mully79
    mully79 Posts: 904
    imposter2.0 said:

    mully79 said:

    The word "intelligence" suggests a James Bond type spy tipped off the Allies but in reality someone probably got tortured for info on the suicide bombers who got hit by a drone this week.

    You've been watching too many ww2 movies - "Ve haf veys of making you talk" and all that.

    Intelligence gathering is a bit more sophisticated these days.
    The whole reason Bin Laden, isis etc were/are so effective is because they dont rely on hackable modern communication so that leaves satelites, torture, informants and spys :p
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    mully79 said:

    imposter2.0 said:

    mully79 said:

    The word "intelligence" suggests a James Bond type spy tipped off the Allies but in reality someone probably got tortured for info on the suicide bombers who got hit by a drone this week.

    You've been watching too many ww2 movies - "Ve haf veys of making you talk" and all that.

    Intelligence gathering is a bit more sophisticated these days.
    The whole reason Bin Laden, isis etc were/are so effective is because they dont rely on hackable modern communication so that leaves satelites, torture, informants and spys :p
    So we can add Zero Dark Thirty to the list of movies you've watched...
  • mully79
    mully79 Posts: 904
    imposter2.0 said:

    So we can add Zero Dark Thirty to the list of movies you've watched...

    I havent seen it, probably to gritty, nasty and realistic for me to enjoy.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,482
    mully79 said:

    imposter2.0 said:

    So we can add Zero Dark Thirty to the list of movies you've watched...

    I havent seen it, probably to gritty, nasty and realistic for me to enjoy.
    I thought it was a comedy.
    Stealthy they were not.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,226
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,660
    kingstongraham said:

    Bloody hell. Worth clicking that to read the full thread.
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    rick_chasey said:

    What's the proposed solution?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    edited January 2022
    Not just ignoring it would be a start. Unfreezing the country's money would be something to consider.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    rjsterry said:

    Not just ignoring it would be a start. Unfreezing the country's money would be something to consider.

    Unfreezing Taliban funds or starting to donate funds again?

    There's clearly a case for delivering food to the border in the way that is done for North Korea, but otherwise I don't think there is an obvious solution.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    Not just ignoring it would be a start. Unfreezing the country's money would be something to consider.

    Unfreezing Taliban funds or starting to donate funds again?

    There's clearly a case for delivering food to the border in the way that is done for North Korea, but otherwise I don't think there is an obvious solution.
    That report suggests that 75% of economic activity depends upon intl. assistance so the only solution is to partially turn the taps back on whilst the economy reverts to it’s natural level.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    Not just ignoring it would be a start. Unfreezing the country's money would be something to consider.

    Unfreezing Taliban funds or starting to donate funds again?

    There's clearly a case for delivering food to the border in the way that is done for North Korea, but otherwise I don't think there is an obvious solution.
    I don't think shrugging that it is all too difficult is good enough. Equally I don't think starving the country of money and thereby significantly contributing to the situation is acceptable.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    Not just ignoring it would be a start. Unfreezing the country's money would be something to consider.

    Unfreezing Taliban funds or starting to donate funds again?

    There's clearly a case for delivering food to the border in the way that is done for North Korea, but otherwise I don't think there is an obvious solution.
    I don't think shrugging that it is all too difficult is good enough. Equally I don't think starving the country of money and thereby significantly contributing to the situation is acceptable.
    I'm not shrugging, but I am suggesting it is tricky. For example, the healthcare has collapsed due to a lack of medicine and doctors. The former could be delivered to the border and may then be distributed around the country, but the latter is difficult to solve as they have presumably all left the country or stopped working if female. So it makes sense to start talking about giving aid (medicine, food, etc.) to the Taliban, but it's not going to be easy and there will be no control over the distribution mechanisms.

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