Afghanistan

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  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    What could make this disaster even worse?
    Some poorly targeted drone strikes?
    Great let's do that.

    That was always going to happen. More high profile this time, but it's been going on for a long time.

    For clarity that doesn't excuse it, but this is an army that bombed an MSF hospital for a sustained period of time.
    All true. Just makes Biden's promises of revenge for the IsisK bombing even more grotesque.
    He's still done nothing to my knowledge about Guantanamo Bay.
    Would you want those inmates rehabilitated in your street. I am sure they are a good bunch of lads.
    Better that than living in a society that accepts state abduction, torture and indefinite detention without trial.
    The funny thing about this is that I am pretty sure it was not jus their neighbour grassing the up for being a terrorist that got the this particular prison. We lock people up in mental hospitals. Should we let them all out as let's face it they are probably as mental as your average fundamentalist.
    That’s what legal systems are designed to establish.

    If it’s more than just a spiteful neighbour, there should be some evidence.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    What could make this disaster even worse?
    Some poorly targeted drone strikes?
    Great let's do that.

    That was always going to happen. More high profile this time, but it's been going on for a long time.

    For clarity that doesn't excuse it, but this is an army that bombed an MSF hospital for a sustained period of time.
    All true. Just makes Biden's promises of revenge for the IsisK bombing even more grotesque.
    He's still done nothing to my knowledge about Guantanamo Bay.
    Would you want those inmates rehabilitated in your street. I am sure they are a good bunch of lads.
    Better that than living in a society that accepts state abduction, torture and indefinite detention without trial.
    The funny thing about this is that I am pretty sure it was not jus their neighbour grassing the up for being a terrorist that got the this particular prison. We lock people up in mental hospitals. Should we let them all out as let's face it they are probably as mental as your average fundamentalist.
    Yes we lock people up in Mental Health Units but this requires the assessment of at least 2 Mental Health Professionals and has a robust legal appeals system as well as involvement of the nearest relative.
    As for people who detained under the MH act being as mental as average fundamentalist. This statement suggests you have a rather narrow minded view of the world probably as you have little experience of it.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    morstar said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    What could make this disaster even worse?
    Some poorly targeted drone strikes?
    Great let's do that.

    That was always going to happen. More high profile this time, but it's been going on for a long time.

    For clarity that doesn't excuse it, but this is an army that bombed an MSF hospital for a sustained period of time.
    All true. Just makes Biden's promises of revenge for the IsisK bombing even more grotesque.
    He's still done nothing to my knowledge about Guantanamo Bay.
    Would you want those inmates rehabilitated in your street. I am sure they are a good bunch of lads.
    Better that than living in a society that accepts state abduction, torture and indefinite detention without trial.
    The funny thing about this is that I am pretty sure it was not jus their neighbour grassing the up for being a terrorist that got the this particular prison. We lock people up in mental hospitals. Should we let them all out as let's face it they are probably as mental as your average fundamentalist.
    That’s what legal systems are designed to establish.

    If it’s more than just a spiteful neighbour, there should be some evidence.
    In addition to the points made by others, are the patients tortured?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    edited August 2021
    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    What could make this disaster even worse?
    Some poorly targeted drone strikes?
    Great let's do that.

    That was always going to happen. More high profile this time, but it's been going on for a long time.

    For clarity that doesn't excuse it, but this is an army that bombed an MSF hospital for a sustained period of time.
    All true. Just makes Biden's promises of revenge for the IsisK bombing even more grotesque.
    He's still done nothing to my knowledge about Guantanamo Bay.
    Would you want those inmates rehabilitated in your street. I am sure they are a good bunch of lads.
    Better that than living in a society that accepts state abduction, torture and indefinite detention without trial.
    The funny thing about this is that I am pretty sure it was not jus their neighbour grassing the up for being a terrorist that got the this particular prison. We lock people up in mental hospitals. Should we let them all out as let's face it they are probably as mental as your average fundamentalist.
    No. Terrorism is not a mental health issue. Terrorists are not ill.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,655
    It's a huge black mark against the west...

    I guess more recently drone strikes reduce the need for such a place, not that I'm convinced of the need for state sponsored torture and indefinite imprisonment without trial.

  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    TheBigBean said:

    morstar said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    What could make this disaster even worse?
    Some poorly targeted drone strikes?
    Great let's do that.

    That was always going to happen. More high profile this time, but it's been going on for a long time.

    For clarity that doesn't excuse it, but this is an army that bombed an MSF hospital for a sustained period of time.
    All true. Just makes Biden's promises of revenge for the IsisK bombing even more grotesque.
    He's still done nothing to my knowledge about Guantanamo Bay.
    Would you want those inmates rehabilitated in your street. I am sure they are a good bunch of lads.
    Better that than living in a society that accepts state abduction, torture and indefinite detention without trial.
    The funny thing about this is that I am pretty sure it was not jus their neighbour grassing the up for being a terrorist that got the this particular prison. We lock people up in mental hospitals. Should we let them all out as let's face it they are probably as mental as your average fundamentalist.
    That’s what legal systems are designed to establish.

    If it’s more than just a spiteful neighbour, there should be some evidence.
    In addition to the points made by others, are the patients tortured?
    Just to play the devil’s advocate. Some patients detained under the MHA may believe they have been tortured as they can be treated against their will. This can take the form of being restrained and injected with medication.
    However this is perfectly legal given the right criteria is met.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811


    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    webboo said:

    TheBigBean said:

    morstar said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    What could make this disaster even worse?
    Some poorly targeted drone strikes?
    Great let's do that.

    That was always going to happen. More high profile this time, but it's been going on for a long time.

    For clarity that doesn't excuse it, but this is an army that bombed an MSF hospital for a sustained period of time.
    All true. Just makes Biden's promises of revenge for the IsisK bombing even more grotesque.
    He's still done nothing to my knowledge about Guantanamo Bay.
    Would you want those inmates rehabilitated in your street. I am sure they are a good bunch of lads.
    Better that than living in a society that accepts state abduction, torture and indefinite detention without trial.
    The funny thing about this is that I am pretty sure it was not jus their neighbour grassing the up for being a terrorist that got the this particular prison. We lock people up in mental hospitals. Should we let them all out as let's face it they are probably as mental as your average fundamentalist.
    That’s what legal systems are designed to establish.

    If it’s more than just a spiteful neighbour, there should be some evidence.
    In addition to the points made by others, are the patients tortured?
    Just to play the devil’s advocate. Some patients detained under the MHA may believe they have been tortured as they can be treated against their will. This can take the form of being restrained and injected with medication.
    However this is perfectly legal given the right criteria is met.
    To be torture it needs to cause severe pain. I don't think detention, whilst potentially mentally painful, is enough, but I think we both agree that the comparison is fairly pointless.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    Jezyboy said:

    It's a huge black mark against the west...

    I guess more recently drone strikes reduce the need for such a place, not that I'm convinced of the need for state sponsored torture and indefinite imprisonment without trial.

    The drone strikes are also horrendous and legally dubious.
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    webboo said:

    TheBigBean said:

    morstar said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    What could make this disaster even worse?
    Some poorly targeted drone strikes?
    Great let's do that.

    That was always going to happen. More high profile this time, but it's been going on for a long time.

    For clarity that doesn't excuse it, but this is an army that bombed an MSF hospital for a sustained period of time.
    All true. Just makes Biden's promises of revenge for the IsisK bombing even more grotesque.
    He's still done nothing to my knowledge about Guantanamo Bay.
    Would you want those inmates rehabilitated in your street. I am sure they are a good bunch of lads.
    Better that than living in a society that accepts state abduction, torture and indefinite detention without trial.
    The funny thing about this is that I am pretty sure it was not jus their neighbour grassing the up for being a terrorist that got the this particular prison. We lock people up in mental hospitals. Should we let them all out as let's face it they are probably as mental as your average fundamentalist.
    That’s what legal systems are designed to establish.

    If it’s more than just a spiteful neighbour, there should be some evidence.
    In addition to the points made by others, are the patients tortured?
    Just to play the devil’s advocate. Some patients detained under the MHA may believe they have been tortured as they can be treated against their will. This can take the form of being restrained and injected with medication.
    However this is perfectly legal given the right criteria is met.
    There was a story on the Beeb not long ago about a 21 year old student who was displaying some erratic behaviour and was sectioned after her parents took her to A&E. She was sectioned for 3 months and given ECT. She was left in a comatose state and then fell out of bed on to a radiator pipe that burnt through her thigh and destroyed the sciatic nerves to her leg, which left her permanently without the use of her leg (she coudn't feel the burning as she was numb all over at that stage).

    Turns out she actually had encephalitis and had no MH issues at all!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/disability-56187965
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
    www.seewildlife.co.uk
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    What could make this disaster even worse?
    Some poorly targeted drone strikes?
    Great let's do that.

    That was always going to happen. More high profile this time, but it's been going on for a long time.

    For clarity that doesn't excuse it, but this is an army that bombed an MSF hospital for a sustained period of time.
    All true. Just makes Biden's promises of revenge for the IsisK bombing even more grotesque.
    He's still done nothing to my knowledge about Guantanamo Bay.
    Would you want those inmates rehabilitated in your street. I am sure they are a good bunch of lads.
    Better that than living in a society that accepts state abduction, torture and indefinite detention without trial.
    The funny thing about this is that I am pretty sure it was not jus their neighbour grassing the up for being a terrorist that got the this particular prison. We lock people up in mental hospitals. Should we let them all out as let's face it they are probably as mental as your average fundamentalist.
    Your analogy is flawed as the comparison would be to look at people who it was not possible to detain under the Mental Health Act. Would you think it reasonable for the NHS to abduct them and fly them to a land where UK laws did not apply and detain them indefinitely?
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    What could make this disaster even worse?
    Some poorly targeted drone strikes?
    Great let's do that.

    That was always going to happen. More high profile this time, but it's been going on for a long time.

    For clarity that doesn't excuse it, but this is an army that bombed an MSF hospital for a sustained period of time.
    All true. Just makes Biden's promises of revenge for the IsisK bombing even more grotesque.
    He's still done nothing to my knowledge about Guantanamo Bay.
    Would you want those inmates rehabilitated in your street. I am sure they are a good bunch of lads.
    Better that than living in a society that accepts state abduction, torture and indefinite detention without trial.
    The funny thing about this is that I am pretty sure it was not jus their neighbour grassing the up for being a terrorist that got the this particular prison. We lock people up in mental hospitals. Should we let them all out as let's face it they are probably as mental as your average fundamentalist.
    Your analogy is flawed as the comparison would be to look at people who it was not possible to detain under the Mental Health Act. Would you think it reasonable for the NHS to abduct them and fly them to a land where UK laws did not apply and detain them indefinitely?
    If we follow the logic of the Brexit thread then it would definitely be cheaper so there are some plus points as everyone loves a cheap fridge. Those in Guantanamo bay were probably pretty mental on anyone's criteria to get there or are there those on here who think that it was all just a conspiracy and they are good eggs. Now that Afghanistan is free maybe we should be shipping those back to their homeland and let the Taliban adopt or deal with them assuming there are some Afghan nationals still in this particular place. As for the mental quite often they think they are not mental and therefore holding them on the say of two independent people probably does not alter how they feel about the situation.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,226
    The Taliban defence minister was released from Guantanamo in 2007. It's fairly clear they just didn't know who is who.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    kingstongraham said:

    The Taliban defence minister was released from Guantanamo in 2007. It's fairly clear they just didn't know who is who.

    To be fair, if I had been detained for years and regularly tortured, I might hold a bit of a grudge against the US.

    But yes, they had no idea. They picked up the some of the wrong people from the streets of Europe, tortured them for a few months, and then dumped them back on some random streets when they realised they'd made a mistake.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,226
    edited September 2021
    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The Taliban defence minister was released from Guantanamo in 2007. It's fairly clear they just didn't know who is who.

    To be fair, if I had been detained for years and regularly tortured, I might hold a bit of a grudge against the US.

    But yes, they had no idea. They picked up the some of the wrong people from the streets of Europe, tortured them for a few months, and then dumped them back on some random streets when they realised they'd made a mistake.
    This guy was in for 6 months, convinced them that the casio watches were nothing to do with him making bombs and was released while George W Bush was still in charge.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    What could make this disaster even worse?
    Some poorly targeted drone strikes?
    Great let's do that.

    That was always going to happen. More high profile this time, but it's been going on for a long time.

    For clarity that doesn't excuse it, but this is an army that bombed an MSF hospital for a sustained period of time.
    All true. Just makes Biden's promises of revenge for the IsisK bombing even more grotesque.
    He's still done nothing to my knowledge about Guantanamo Bay.
    Would you want those inmates rehabilitated in your street. I am sure they are a good bunch of lads.
    Better that than living in a society that accepts state abduction, torture and indefinite detention without trial.
    The funny thing about this is that I am pretty sure it was not jus their neighbour grassing the up for being a terrorist that got the this particular prison. We lock people up in mental hospitals. Should we let them all out as let's face it they are probably as mental as your average fundamentalist.
    Your analogy is flawed as the comparison would be to look at people who it was not possible to detain under the Mental Health Act. Would you think it reasonable for the NHS to abduct them and fly them to a land where UK laws did not apply and detain them indefinitely?
    If we follow the logic of the Brexit thread then it would definitely be cheaper so there are some plus points as everyone loves a cheap fridge. Those in Guantanamo bay were probably pretty mental on anyone's criteria to get there or are there those on here who think that it was all just a conspiracy and they are good eggs. Now that Afghanistan is free maybe we should be shipping those back to their homeland and let the Taliban adopt or deal with them assuming there are some Afghan nationals still in this particular place. As for the mental quite often they think they are not mental and therefore holding them on the say of two independent people probably does not alter how they feel about the situation.
    So a bloke fighting in a civil war in a far flung country is abducted by a 3rd country and held and tortured outside of their legal system and you see nothing wrong with that?
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,226
    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    What could make this disaster even worse?
    Some poorly targeted drone strikes?
    Great let's do that.

    That was always going to happen. More high profile this time, but it's been going on for a long time.

    For clarity that doesn't excuse it, but this is an army that bombed an MSF hospital for a sustained period of time.
    All true. Just makes Biden's promises of revenge for the IsisK bombing even more grotesque.
    He's still done nothing to my knowledge about Guantanamo Bay.
    Would you want those inmates rehabilitated in your street. I am sure they are a good bunch of lads.
    Better that than living in a society that accepts state abduction, torture and indefinite detention without trial.
    The funny thing about this is that I am pretty sure it was not jus their neighbour grassing the up for being a terrorist that got the this particular prison. We lock people up in mental hospitals. Should we let them all out as let's face it they are probably as mental as your average fundamentalist.
    Your analogy is flawed as the comparison would be to look at people who it was not possible to detain under the Mental Health Act. Would you think it reasonable for the NHS to abduct them and fly them to a land where UK laws did not apply and detain them indefinitely?
    If we follow the logic of the Brexit thread then it would definitely be cheaper so there are some plus points as everyone loves a cheap fridge. Those in Guantanamo bay were probably pretty mental on anyone's criteria to get there or are there those on here who think that it was all just a conspiracy and they are good eggs. Now that Afghanistan is free maybe we should be shipping those back to their homeland and let the Taliban adopt or deal with them assuming there are some Afghan nationals still in this particular place. As for the mental quite often they think they are not mental and therefore holding them on the say of two independent people probably does not alter how they feel about the situation.
    So a bloke fighting in a civil war in a far flung country is abducted by a 3rd country and held and tortured outside of their legal system and you see nothing wrong with that?
    Be fair, they held and tortured some of them in Afghanistan too.
  • mully79
    mully79 Posts: 904
    If the Americans took them back to Afghanistan and tried them all under sharia law and beheaded them as punishment would that be more reasonable ?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Fairly sure the Brits were also involved in this grabbing-someone-and-taking-them-to-a-third-country-to-torture-them
    _
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,482
    edited September 2021
    mully79 said:

    If the Americans took them back to Afghanistan and tried them all under sharia law and beheaded them as punishment would that be more reasonable ?

    mully79 said:

    If the Americans took them back to Afghanistan and tried them all under sharia law and beheaded them as punishment would that be more reasonable ?

    What do you think they'd be found guilty of?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • mully79
    mully79 Posts: 904
    Guilty of ? Thats the problem with America. The need to be perceived as fair.

    Putin would have stuck them all on a plane back to Afghanistan and shot the plane down over the Iran border and blamed a militia group. Job jobbed.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,226
    That's a problem?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    pblakeney said:

    mully79 said:

    If the Americans took them back to Afghanistan and tried them all under sharia law and beheaded them as punishment would that be more reasonable ?

    mully79 said:

    If the Americans took them back to Afghanistan and tried them all under sharia law and beheaded them as punishment would that be more reasonable ?

    What do you think they'd be found guilty of?
    I presume defending their homeland against an invading army.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,482
    surrey_commuter said:

    pblakeney said:

    mully79 said:

    If the Americans took them back to Afghanistan and tried them all under sharia law and beheaded them as punishment would that be more reasonable ?

    mully79 said:

    If the Americans took them back to Afghanistan and tried them all under sharia law and beheaded them as punishment would that be more reasonable ?

    What do you think they'd be found guilty of?
    I presume defending their homeland against an invading army.
    Not sure that is something that anyone would be found "guilty" of.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    Don't know why the US abducted them, they could just as easily targeted them in a drone strike or even killed them by "accident" as collateral damage...
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
    www.seewildlife.co.uk
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,660
    elbowloh said:

    Don't know why the US abducted them, they could just as easily targeted them in a drone strike or even killed them by "accident" as collateral damage...

    Because they wanted them to give them intel. Hard to interrogate a corpse.
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,655
    TheBigBean said:

    Jezyboy said:

    It's a huge black mark against the west...

    I guess more recently drone strikes reduce the need for such a place, not that I'm convinced of the need for state sponsored torture and indefinite imprisonment without trial.

    The drone strikes are also horrendous and legally dubious.
    Not going to argue with that.

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    pangolin said:

    elbowloh said:

    Don't know why the US abducted them, they could just as easily targeted them in a drone strike or even killed them by "accident" as collateral damage...

    Because they wanted them to give them intel. Hard to interrogate a corpse.
    They did get lots of made up intel from the torture. This is the reason it is not considered effective - people tend to say anything to end the pain. One detainee invented a terror plot, but that only got him more torture as the details were lacking while being drowned.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,024
    rick_chasey said:

    Fairly sure the Brits were also involved in this grabbing-someone-and-taking-them-to-a-third-country-to-torture-them

    Not really, and the UK hasn't been able to block litigation so any victims have been able to use the law to receive compensation.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited September 2021
    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Fairly sure the Brits were also involved in this grabbing-someone-and-taking-them-to-a-third-country-to-torture-them

    Not really, and the UK hasn't been able to block litigation so any victims have been able to use the law to receive compensation.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/torture-report-britain-s-dirty-jobs-outsourced-to-allies-xc3xznpjg

    First two paragraphs are fairly explicit

    Britain’s intelligence agencies were involved in the torture and kidnap of hundreds of terror suspects and only rarely objected. The scale of their complicity in the maltreatment of detainees, mostly in US-controlled facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, is laid bare by the intelligence and security committee.

    The agencies were also accused of a “completely unacceptable” approach of financing rendition operations carried out by allies, which amounted to “outsourcing” activity they knew they were not allowed to undertake themselves. British officials, including senior military officers and diplomats as well as agents themselves, raised the alarm but were ignored, the report said.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/commentisfree/2018/jul/01/britain-torture-911-rendition-cia
    Here’s an article that isn’t behind a paywall.
    _

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