Afghanistan
Comments
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Judging by the reaction from the European countries, I think the penny has dropped that there was more to the divergence between the US and Europe than just Trump being Trump.
Ultimately it was US unilateral action that pulled all the allies out.
I suspect the efforts for Europe to steers its own course rather than steer the same US course, will intensify.
I suspect it will also make Biden’s Cold War view of China be hard to reconcile - Europe is more ambivalent.0 -
A few rocket propelled grenades downing planes and you can kiss goodbye to holding any airport in isolation. 3000 troops being starved out in a hostile foreign state is not a good look for any country.surrey_commuter said:
I don’t think the average man in the street has any idea how few spare troops we have to deploy and our limited ability to move them and support them with things like helicopters and planes.kingstongraham said:
Is the argument really that we should have started again now?darkhairedlord said:
yes, "The British combat mission ended with the handover of Camp Bastion to Afghan forces on 26 October 2014. British troops have remained in Afghanistan since in a training and advisory role based in Kabul and Helmand"kingstongraham said:Didn't the UK stop fighting in Afghanistan years ago?
On the plus side we do have two shiny aircraft carriers.
On the downside, on our own we would struggle to hold the airport
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Profound, powerful and compelling.yorkshireraw said:Worth a watch. Tom Tugenhadt who served in Afghan.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-58259509
“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
My point is that the average person (thank you Pangolin) is led to believe that we are sitting on our hands and not intervening in the likes of Afghanistan because of a lack of moral fibre when the reality is that we are not in a position to do anything.joe2019 said:surrey_commuter said:
All publicly available info.joe2019 said:surrey_commuter said:
I don’t think the average man in the street has any idea how few spare troops we have to deploy and our limited ability to move them and support them with things like helicopters and planes.kingstongraham said:
Is the argument really that we should have started again now?darkhairedlord said:
yes, "The British combat mission ended with the handover of Camp Bastion to Afghan forces on 26 October 2014. British troops have remained in Afghanistan since in a training and advisory role based in Kabul and Helmand"kingstongraham said:Didn't the UK stop fighting in Afghanistan years ago?
But you do
I know.
But why put down the 'average man in the street'?1 -
Exactly, 3,000 probably would not be enough to hold back the unarmed civilians.john80 said:
A few rocket propelled grenades downing planes and you can kiss goodbye to holding any airport in isolation. 3000 troops being starved out in a hostile foreign state is not a good look for any country.surrey_commuter said:
I don’t think the average man in the street has any idea how few spare troops we have to deploy and our limited ability to move them and support them with things like helicopters and planes.kingstongraham said:
Is the argument really that we should have started again now?darkhairedlord said:
yes, "The British combat mission ended with the handover of Camp Bastion to Afghan forces on 26 October 2014. British troops have remained in Afghanistan since in a training and advisory role based in Kabul and Helmand"kingstongraham said:Didn't the UK stop fighting in Afghanistan years ago?
On the plus side we do have two shiny aircraft carriers.
On the downside, on our own we would struggle to hold the airport0 -
Sounds like a good discussion. In reality I have watched too many documentaries on the likes of Afghanistan and so realise that what we were doing would only end one way. If anybody is interested there is a great one called Restrepo on Netflix.TheBigBean said:
I suspect @surrey_commuter would be only too happy to sit around discussing favourite generals from history, but frequently comes across people like me who could barely name two. As a result, he probably rightly thinks his military knowledge is above average.joe2019 said:surrey_commuter said:
All publicly available info.joe2019 said:surrey_commuter said:
I don’t think the average man in the street has any idea how few spare troops we have to deploy and our limited ability to move them and support them with things like helicopters and planes.kingstongraham said:
Is the argument really that we should have started again now?darkhairedlord said:
yes, "The British combat mission ended with the handover of Camp Bastion to Afghan forces on 26 October 2014. British troops have remained in Afghanistan since in a training and advisory role based in Kabul and Helmand"kingstongraham said:Didn't the UK stop fighting in Afghanistan years ago?
But you do
I know.
But why put down the 'average man in the street'?0 -
Restrepo is a great film.
There is also the Danish equivalent called Armadilo - same year I think. Would also recommend0 -
Found this to be a good take on the fallout for Britain from a US point of view.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/18/world/europe/britain-afghanistan-johnson-biden.html?te=1&nl=morning-briefing:-europe-edition&emc=edit_mbe_202108190 -
Fighting talk from the resistance, or from someone with a Twitter account
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It's all about the flag
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Somewhat higher stakes and more marked symbolism than our domestic version wouldn't you say?TheBigBean said:It's all about the flag
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
This is part of my issue with all the 'graveyard of empires' nonsense. I can't think of a single example of an empire that hasn't maintained a military presence - a garrison - in conquered territories for the duration. We had effectively already left. It seems that the 300,000 strength of the ANA was massively inflated and the remainder were so demoralised from non-existent pay and high casualties that they were ineffective.TheBigBean said:Fighting talk from the resistance, or from someone with a Twitter account
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Of course, but reading about this conflict, the flag seems to be of huge importance. There are lots of flags beyond the Taliban and Afghanistan ones e.g. there is northern alliance one. So, it seems some people are content with the Taliban ruling Afghanistan, but not with them flying their flag.rjsterry said:
Somewhat higher stakes and more marked symbolism than our domestic version wouldn't you say?TheBigBean said:It's all about the flag
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It seems a lot were ordered not to fight for unknown reasons, and are now not happy about it. This is point of the tweet. To rally troops to make a stand (and obviously generate foreign support hence it being in English). Also, that the Taliban are going to find ruling tricky as they are now spread out and obvious targets.rjsterry said:
This is part of my issue with all the 'graveyard of empires' nonsense. I can't think of a single example of an empire that hasn't maintained a military presence - a garrison - in conquered territories for the duration. We had effectively already left. It seems that the 300,000 strength of the ANA was massively inflated and the remainder were so demoralised from non-existent pay and high casualties that they were ineffective.TheBigBean said:Fighting talk from the resistance, or from someone with a Twitter account
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No, I was agreeing with you that we stopped fighting in Afghanistan years ago.kingstongraham said:
Is the argument really that we should have started again now?darkhairedlord said:
yes, "The British combat mission ended with the handover of Camp Bastion to Afghan forces on 26 October 2014. British troops have remained in Afghanistan since in a training and advisory role based in Kabul and Helmand"kingstongraham said:Didn't the UK stop fighting in Afghanistan years ago?
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Sorry, I didn't mean your argument. There seems to be a fairly widely held opinion that the UK could have done something militarily this year other than pulling out, in order to save Afghanistan and I don't see what it is.darkhairedlord said:
No, I was agreeing with you that we stopped fighting in Afghanistan years ago.kingstongraham said:
Is the argument really that we should have started again now?darkhairedlord said:
yes, "The British combat mission ended with the handover of Camp Bastion to Afghan forces on 26 October 2014. British troops have remained in Afghanistan since in a training and advisory role based in Kabul and Helmand"kingstongraham said:Didn't the UK stop fighting in Afghanistan years ago?
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The whole point of training up the afghan army was so they could do it themselves. If the whole afghan political setup was riddled with corruption that's their lookout.kingstongraham said:
Sorry, I didn't mean your argument. There seems to be a fairly widely held opinion that the UK could have done something militarily this year other than pulling out, in order to save Afghanistan and I don't see what it is.darkhairedlord said:
No, I was agreeing with you that we stopped fighting in Afghanistan years ago.kingstongraham said:
Is the argument really that we should have started again now?darkhairedlord said:
yes, "The British combat mission ended with the handover of Camp Bastion to Afghan forces on 26 October 2014. British troops have remained in Afghanistan since in a training and advisory role based in Kabul and Helmand"kingstongraham said:Didn't the UK stop fighting in Afghanistan years ago?
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The politics of opposition. Easy to throw mud when you don't have to come up with the solution.kingstongraham said:
Sorry, I didn't mean your argument. There seems to be a fairly widely held opinion that the UK could have done something militarily this year other than pulling out, in order to save Afghanistan and I don't see what it is.darkhairedlord said:
No, I was agreeing with you that we stopped fighting in Afghanistan years ago.kingstongraham said:
Is the argument really that we should have started again now?darkhairedlord said:
yes, "The British combat mission ended with the handover of Camp Bastion to Afghan forces on 26 October 2014. British troops have remained in Afghanistan since in a training and advisory role based in Kabul and Helmand"kingstongraham said:Didn't the UK stop fighting in Afghanistan years ago?
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Sky showing footage of planes landing back at Brize North, and interesting all the markings on the planes have been blanked out.0
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Seems like even the mission to stamp out al-Queda has ultimately been a failure and encouraged al-Quaeda affiliates elsewhere.
Analysis: 'A significant morale boost for al-Qaeda'
Frank Gardner
BBC Security Correspondent
A recent UN report said there were still strong ethnic and marital ties between the Taliban and al-QaedaImage caption: A recent UN report said there were still strong ethnic and marital ties between the Taliban and al-Qaeda.
Al-Qaeda has been relatively quiet these last few years but it hasn’t gone away and now it is celebrating the return of the Taliban to power as a historic event and the start of forthcoming victories.
Its branch in Yemen – Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula – once considered the most dangerous, has praised the Taliban as "an honourable and loyal group".
This may not be what the Taliban leadership wants to hear publicly as they have promised to cut their ties to the proscribed terrorist organisation that used Afghanistan to plan the 9/11 attacks 20 years ago.
There are currently estimated to be several hundred al-Qaeda militants in the country, some of whom have been reportedly sighted amidst the Taliban’s ranks.
A recent UN report stated there were still strong ethnic and marital ties between the two groups.
Without a Western military presence in Afghanistan, or a cooperative local intelligence service, it will now be much harder to identify and intercept al-Qaeda’s activities, especially in remote, rugged areas like Kunar province.
Elsewhere in the world, al-Qaeda’s affiliates in East and West Africa have been steadily recruiting. They will have had a significant morale boost from what al-Qaeda sees as a humiliating defeat for the West0 -
The more I read about the Doha 'Peace Deal' that Pompeo signed the more it seems like the US just let the Taliban back in knowing full well the ANA wouldn't stand up to them.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition1 -
I read somewhere that all the western stuff requires an absurd amount of maintenance, and really it is foolish for the locals to rely on anything other than an AK.0
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The West armed the mujahideen for years against the Russians so some of that would have made it into the hands of the Taliban no doubt. Would be quite ancient now though. On the image RC posted above it looks to me like the guns have been removed from the vehicles though.0
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I read that the Americans used to have 17,000 maintenance guys in Afghanistan which is why they were relaxed about leaving it behind. That and it would have taken them years to do so.TheBigBean said:I read somewhere that all the western stuff requires an absurd amount of maintenance, and really it is foolish for the locals to rely on anything other than an AK.
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This is the equivalent of the "standing army <------> drafted army" slider on Hearts of Iron 2, for anyone who plays strategic war sims.surrey_commuter said:
I read that the Americans used to have 17,000 maintenance guys in Afghanistan which is why they were relaxed about leaving it behind. That and it would have taken them years to do so.TheBigBean said:I read somewhere that all the western stuff requires an absurd amount of maintenance, and really it is foolish for the locals to rely on anything other than an AK.
Life imitates art etc.0 -
no idea what that is a reference to but they used to reckon it takes 7 men to keep one frontline soldier going.rick_chasey said:
This is the equivalent of the "standing army <------> drafted army" slider on Hearts of Iron 2, for anyone who plays strategic war sims.surrey_commuter said:
I read that the Americans used to have 17,000 maintenance guys in Afghanistan which is why they were relaxed about leaving it behind. That and it would have taken them years to do so.TheBigBean said:I read somewhere that all the western stuff requires an absurd amount of maintenance, and really it is foolish for the locals to rely on anything other than an AK.
Life imitates art etc.
Alongside the usual stats that we have ore Admirals than ships here are some to boggle the mind
Total retained personnel in armed forces 2018
Navy - 29,300
RAF - 30,350
Civilians - 56,870
Army - 77,120
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Yes, Rory Stewart was saying that the US have evacuated all the maintenance staff and equipment already so the numbers of aircraft the ANA (and now the Taliban) had/have are somewhat academic.TheBigBean said:I read somewhere that all the western stuff requires an absurd amount of maintenance, and really it is foolish for the locals to rely on anything other than an AK.
This seems like quite a good assessment of how the Taliban did what they did.
https://www.justsecurity.org/77801/cias-former-counterterrorism-chief-for-the-region-afghanistan-not-an-intelligence-failure-something-much-worse/1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
bear in mind that only probably a third of those are combat arms it shows how weak Britain's forces actually are....surrey_commuter said:
no idea what that is a reference to but they used to reckon it takes 7 men to keep one frontline soldier going.rick_chasey said:
This is the equivalent of the "standing army <------> drafted army" slider on Hearts of Iron 2, for anyone who plays strategic war sims.surrey_commuter said:
I read that the Americans used to have 17,000 maintenance guys in Afghanistan which is why they were relaxed about leaving it behind. That and it would have taken them years to do so.TheBigBean said:I read somewhere that all the western stuff requires an absurd amount of maintenance, and really it is foolish for the locals to rely on anything other than an AK.
Life imitates art etc.
Alongside the usual stats that we have ore Admirals than ships here are some to boggle the mind
Total retained personnel in armed forces 2018
Navy - 29,300
RAF - 30,350
Civilians - 56,870
Army - 77,120.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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