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TDF 2021:- Stage 15, Céret > Andorre-La-Vieille 191.3km **Spoilers**

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  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,479

    Ineos' tactics are basically a cargo cult at this point. They're doing all the work for a leader in the hope one turns up.


    One has turned up. It's just that he's not going to win. He could come second which is not bad
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Lanterne_RogueLanterne_Rogue Posts: 3,330
    I'm not sure Carapaz right now is in the form to play the role he needs to though - does he look any more dangerous than an Ineos super-domestique from previous years?
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,557

    pblakeney said:

    The real problem with ineos tactics is carapaz can't drop Uran after all that effort .

    They should have another tactic in this situation
    The only other tactic is going for stage wins. Guess they are not trying that while there is still a podium place up for grabs.
    You don't always have to put a train on to gain a place, you know.
    They didn't yesterday, they put two guys in the break. I would have preferred them being there for him to jump across to rather than them dropping back though but I just don't think Carapaz has the legs this Tour to break the elastic. Uran usually has a bad day or so though which could happen on the remaining two big mountain stages.
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 10,448

    The real problem with ineos tactics is carapaz can't drop Uran after all that effort .

    They should have another tactic in this situation
    Keep Porte higher on GC but that ship sailed
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,004
    RichN95. said:

    The question that journalists need to be asking on the rest day is why Movistar are only 8th on the team competition, nearly an hour down. Bahrain lead EF by 11 minutes

    Valverde got cold.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,479

    RichN95. said:

    The question that journalists need to be asking on the rest day is why Movistar are only 8th on the team competition, nearly an hour down. Bahrain lead EF by 11 minutes

    Valverde got cold.

    It's terrible when pensioners can't afford heating
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,704
    The obvious tactic that Ineos should deploy, and I'm surprised they haven't already, but then I guess they lack anyone with the legs to do it currently, is the one they deployed with great success in the Giro last year. If someone like Thomas had done the top half of the last climb yesterday as hard as possible, then the likes of Kelderman, O'Connor and Lutsenko would definitely have lost more time. There's the potential that Mas, Uran and possibly Vingegaard might have lost time too.

    They've still two stages where they could try that, assuming one of Porte or Thomas has the form (can't see anyone else being good enough to trouble the rest of the top ten).
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,748
    They'd just let Porte or Thomas go. They are no threat.
    Carapaz putting them to the sword (unlikely) or stage wins is all they have left.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,704
    pblakeney said:

    They'd just let Porte or Thomas go. They are no threat.
    Carapaz putting them to the sword (unlikely) or stage wins is all they have left.

    They wouldn't if Carapaz was sat on their wheel. It worked for them at the Giro last year, you think they'd at least try it this year.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,748
    andyp said:

    pblakeney said:

    They'd just let Porte or Thomas go. They are no threat.
    Carapaz putting them to the sword (unlikely) or stage wins is all they have left.

    They wouldn't if Carapaz was sat on their wheel. It worked for them at the Giro last year, you think they'd at least try it this year.
    This is what is commonly known as the Ineos train, and has been their main tactic to date.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,704
    pblakeney said:

    andyp said:

    pblakeney said:

    They'd just let Porte or Thomas go. They are no threat.
    Carapaz putting them to the sword (unlikely) or stage wins is all they have left.

    They wouldn't if Carapaz was sat on their wheel. It worked for them at the Giro last year, you think they'd at least try it this year.
    This is what is commonly known as the Ineos train, and has been their main tactic to date.
    It really wasn't. Ineos didn't hit the front until Dennis went with TGH on his wheel, Sunweb had been setting the pace up until that point.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,748
    andyp said:

    pblakeney said:

    andyp said:

    pblakeney said:

    They'd just let Porte or Thomas go. They are no threat.
    Carapaz putting them to the sword (unlikely) or stage wins is all they have left.

    They wouldn't if Carapaz was sat on their wheel. It worked for them at the Giro last year, you think they'd at least try it this year.
    This is what is commonly known as the Ineos train, and has been their main tactic to date.
    It really wasn't. Ineos didn't hit the front until Dennis went with TGH on his wheel, Sunweb had been setting the pace up until that point.
    Agree to disagree. I think that they have been trying throughout the race, but failing.
    They will try again on Wednesday.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • bigmatbigmat Posts: 5,125
    The big question for me re Ineos is what has gone wrong with Porte and Tao? Last two mountain domestiques are Kwia and Thomas. The former should be a few steps down the train, particularly as he's presumably having to do more on the flat parts since Rowe went home. G is clearly crocked. What are Porte and Tao's excuses? If they were also there at the sharp end, they'd have more chance of making something happen, alternatively one of them could get in a break and relieve the pressure by going for a stage win. I may have missed their contribution early on in stages, but seems weird if they are being burned off as mountain doms before the others I have mentioned (not to mention Castro and Van Baarle).
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,187
    bigmat said:

    The big question for me re Ineos is what has gone wrong with Porte and Tao? Last two mountain domestiques are Kwia and Thomas. The former should be a few steps down the train, particularly as he's presumably having to do more on the flat parts since Rowe went home. G is clearly crocked. What are Porte and Tao's excuses? If they were also there at the sharp end, they'd have more chance of making something happen, alternatively one of them could get in a break and relieve the pressure by going for a stage win. I may have missed their contribution early on in stages, but seems weird if they are being burned off as mountain doms before the others I have mentioned (not to mention Castro and Van Baarle).

    We used to spend the first two weeks saying the same of Wout Poels, only for him to pop up in the third week and drag Froome up the mountains by himself. Not saying that's going to happen, but sky used to save domestiques for the closing stages.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,004
    I'm not sure former GT winners make for good domestiques. The desire to train hard is surely going to be less.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,479
    We should remember that Ineos have been in UAE's position many times - the best rider and best TTer. They will most likely base their tactics on what they used to hate. So they won't let UAE control the pace and they can see the flaw of sending men in the break as they used to let the break get 15 minutes. What they would have disliked is other teams taking charge and making it hard.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,704
    bigmat said:

    The big question for me re Ineos is what has gone wrong with Porte and Tao? Last two mountain domestiques are Kwia and Thomas. The former should be a few steps down the train, particularly as he's presumably having to do more on the flat parts since Rowe went home. G is clearly crocked. What are Porte and Tao's excuses? If they were also there at the sharp end, they'd have more chance of making something happen, alternatively one of them could get in a break and relieve the pressure by going for a stage win. I may have missed their contribution early on in stages, but seems weird if they are being burned off as mountain doms before the others I have mentioned (not to mention Castro and Van Baarle).

    Porte has crashed at least twice I think. At this level, that takes it out of you and if you are even one per cent below your usual level, that's going to impact your performance.

    TGH has had a tough year and has been chasing form since the spring. I don't know how severe the concussion he suffered at Paris-Nice was, but, from the outside, he's struggled to get back to his best level since. He had an okay Dauphine, but even there he looked a few per cent short of his very best form.
  • r0bhr0bh Posts: 1,594
    I'm pretty sure that TGH said he was suffering the after effects of a crash too
  • above_the_cowsabove_the_cows Posts: 11,318

    pblakeney said:

    pblakeney said:

    pblakeney said:

    The real problem with ineos tactics is carapaz can't drop Uran after all that effort .

    They should have another tactic in this situation
    The only other tactic is going for stage wins. Guess they are not trying that while there is still a podium place up for grabs.
    You don't always have to put a train on to gain a place, you know.
    Carapaz has already tried the solo attack. What else is left?
    The opposition just sit on his wheel so any other team tactics are nullified.

    I'm guessing that they have considered the just pedal faster tactic.
    They could use the team earlier in the day to soften up the other teams with a view to getting carapaz down the road earlier in the day, for example.
    They've already tried that IMO. It just doesn't work when they all sit on the wheel and people moan about the Ineos train. Bottom line, it's not due to a lack of trying.
    They’ve also tried the train, repeatedly and keep doing it.
    The train did what it was supposed to do, shelled out all the domestiques. They don't have other riders to attack with, the original strat for the race, and Pog and Uran were able to close every gap. The only other rider to be doing much attacking was Vingegaard, who was also closed. O'connor had a couple of goes but paid for it.

    Aside from the train they also had riders up the road to help.

    Ineos did pretty much everything they could, it just didn't get a result because Carapaz doesn't have an edge on any of the others.

    I really don't see much in the way of tactics they could use that's going to solve that.
    They could always try a Tonya Harding...


    Correlation is not causation.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,187
    RichN95. said:

    We should remember that Ineos have been in UAE's position many times - the best rider and best TTer. They will most likely base their tactics on what they used to hate. So they won't let UAE control the pace and they can see the flaw of sending men in the break as they used to let the break get 15 minutes. What they would have disliked is other teams taking charge and making it hard.

    You mean like Movistar used to do, before evaporating on the final climb?
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • r0bhr0bh Posts: 1,594
    r0bh said:

    I'm pretty sure that TGH said he was suffering the after effects of a crash too

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/12/tao-geoghegan-hart-tour-de-france-ineos-grenadiers
  • bigmatbigmat Posts: 5,125
    Fair enough if crashes have affected them. Hopefully one / both can recover in time to make an impression in week 3.
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