Rim Brake Sales
Comments
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That might be true, although if braking performance was so much better, surely this would come out loud and strong in races?ibr17xvii said:
All of the above is absolutely fair but there is no doubt at all in my mind that in poor conditions they outperform rim brakes. That's not to say that most folk won't be perfectly fine on rims it's just that discs are better. IMHO.
I honestly can't say that I have seen guys on rim brakes struggling to keep up going down alpine descents... and we have seen enough wet stages of GTs to make a sizeable sample.
It might be that in a bumper to bumper busy London commuting day, disc brakes outperform rim brakes... maybe
Ironically, the best braking I have ever experienced is on my Brompton... it really is super reliable in all conditionsleft the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia said:
That might be true, although if braking performance was so much better, surely this would come out loud and strong in races?ibr17xvii said:
All of the above is absolutely fair but there is no doubt at all in my mind that in poor conditions they outperform rim brakes. That's not to say that most folk won't be perfectly fine on rims it's just that discs are better. IMHO.
I honestly can't say that I have seen guys on rim brakes struggling to keep up going down alpine descents... and we have seen enough wet stages of GTs to make a sizeable sample.
It might be that in a bumper to bumper busy London commuting day, disc brakes outperform rim brakes... maybe
Ironically, the best braking I have ever experienced is on my Brompton... it really is super reliable in all conditions
Isn't that more down to rider ability than anything else though? I'm not so sure it makes that much difference at pro level & obviously they get told what to ride anyway so they don't have much choice.
For minions like me the difference is tangible.0 -
This is it, disc brakes are very much an advantage in certain circumstances such as the one you highlighted but aren't necessary in others. I live in London, the riding can be very stop start sometimes, I probably do a hundred times more braking than a pro. It's nice to be able to still brake reliably in the rain whilst riding behind a bus.ugo.santalucia said:
That might be true, although if braking performance was so much better, surely this would come out loud and strong in races?ibr17xvii said:
All of the above is absolutely fair but there is no doubt at all in my mind that in poor conditions they outperform rim brakes. That's not to say that most folk won't be perfectly fine on rims it's just that discs are better. IMHO.
I honestly can't say that I have seen guys on rim brakes struggling to keep up going down alpine descents... and we have seen enough wet stages of GTs to make a sizeable sample.
It might be that in a bumper to bumper busy London commuting day, disc brakes outperform rim brakes... maybe
Ironically, the best braking I have ever experienced is on my Brompton... it really is super reliable in all conditions
I was in a group ride just yesterday morning and it was pelting down at Biggin Hill, I was on discs, it was fine. The guys on carbon wheels and rim brakes were crapping themselves and having to ride slowly as a result.
But, rim brakes are easier to look after and the weight saving is undeniable. Aesthetically as well they do look nicer. I would say though that disc brake maintenance isn't very hard in my experience but it is a new set of skills and equipment.
TL:DR - It's good to have choice.1 -
joe_totale-2 said:
This is it, disc brakes are very much an advantage in certain circumstances such as the one you highlighted but aren't necessary in others. I live in London, the riding can be very stop start sometimes, I probably do a hundred times more braking than a pro. It's nice to be able to still brake reliably in the rain whilst riding behind a bus.ugo.santalucia said:
That might be true, although if braking performance was so much better, surely this would come out loud and strong in races?ibr17xvii said:
All of the above is absolutely fair but there is no doubt at all in my mind that in poor conditions they outperform rim brakes. That's not to say that most folk won't be perfectly fine on rims it's just that discs are better. IMHO.
I honestly can't say that I have seen guys on rim brakes struggling to keep up going down alpine descents... and we have seen enough wet stages of GTs to make a sizeable sample.
It might be that in a bumper to bumper busy London commuting day, disc brakes outperform rim brakes... maybe
Ironically, the best braking I have ever experienced is on my Brompton... it really is super reliable in all conditions
I was in a group ride just yesterday morning and it was pelting down at Biggin Hill, I was on discs, it was fine. The guys on carbon wheels and rim brakes were crapping themselves and having to ride slowly as a result.
But, rim brakes are easier to look after and the weight saving is undeniable. Aesthetically as well they do look nicer. I would say though that disc brake maintenance isn't very hard in my experience but it is a new set of skills and equipment.
TL:DR - It's good to have choice.
Good summary.
The problem is though the way it's going we won't have choice or at least much of it if you're looking for rim brakes.0 -
At the low end rim brakes will be around for ages until they work out how to make hydraulic brakes cheaper. Bike manufacturers can't make bikes quick enough, especially for people with small budgets.ibr17xvii said:
Good summary.
The problem is though the way it's going we won't have choice or at least much of it if you're looking for rim brakes.
At the high end the smaller brands will step in if any big brands stop making rim brake parts/bikes/wheels as they're just so ubiquitous and a decent proportion of the market still want them.
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I'm just changing the forks on Dirk.
ok, steerer was seized in so I had to cut it off (5 mins with angle grinder), but changing forks:
Undo rim brake
Remove fork
fit new fork
do up one nut holding fork on
done
15 mins
with discs/hydraulics? nah....
.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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You're right, it wouldn't be 15 mins with discs.MattFalle said:I'm just changing the forks on Dirk.
ok, steerer was seized in so I had to cut it off (5 mins with angle grinder), but changing forks:
Undo rim brake
Remove fork
fit new fork
do up one nut holding fork on
done
15 mins
with discs/hydraulics? nah....
However, I don't think it would take me much longer with discs as the only thing that would really add time is bleeding the brake once everything has been refitted.
What would add silly amounts of time would be integrated cockpit nonsense and fully internal cables getting in the way.1 -
MattFalle said:
I'm just changing the forks on Dirk.
ok, steerer was seized in so I had to cut it off (5 mins with angle grinder), but changing forks:
Undo rim brake
Remove fork
fit new fork
do up one nut holding fork on
done
15 mins
with discs/hydraulics? nah....
I doubt your average consumer would be thinking "I better not buy this disc braked bike in case I need to change the forks".
Just as you've never snapped a brake cable in XX amount of years, I've never needed to change my forks. It's hardly a benefit of rims or a disadvantage of discs.1 -
joe_totale-2 said:
This is it, disc brakes are very much an advantage in certain circumstances such as the one you highlighted but aren't necessary in others. I live in London, the riding can be very stop start sometimes, I probably do a hundred times more braking than a pro. It's nice to be able to still brake reliably in the rain whilst riding behind a bus.ugo.santalucia said:
That might be true, although if braking performance was so much better, surely this would come out loud and strong in races?ibr17xvii said:
All of the above is absolutely fair but there is no doubt at all in my mind that in poor conditions they outperform rim brakes. That's not to say that most folk won't be perfectly fine on rims it's just that discs are better. IMHO.
I honestly can't say that I have seen guys on rim brakes struggling to keep up going down alpine descents... and we have seen enough wet stages of GTs to make a sizeable sample.
It might be that in a bumper to bumper busy London commuting day, disc brakes outperform rim brakes... maybe
Ironically, the best braking I have ever experienced is on my Brompton... it really is super reliable in all conditions
I was in a group ride just yesterday morning and it was pelting down at Biggin Hill, I was on discs, it was fine. The guys on carbon wheels and rim brakes were crapping themselves and having to ride slowly as a result.
But, rim brakes are easier to look after and the weight saving is undeniable. Aesthetically as well they do look nicer. I would say though that disc brake maintenance isn't very hard in my experience but it is a new set of skills and equipment.
TL:DR - It's good to have choice.
I'm not putting them down but we're they novices ?... because I've not noticed rim brake riders getting dropped in the wet.
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
They weren't novices but also wouldn't have the kind of ability a pro would have. Some of them race in crits and CX.DeVlaeminck said:
I'm not putting them down but we're they novices ?... because I've not noticed rim brake riders getting dropped in the wet.
It was a very sharp shower for 10-15 mins, the kind where you soon have rivers running on the road. My brakes did howl but still stopped me fine.
In my own experience, carbon rim brakes aren't too bad in most kinds of British rain but this was to heavy for them to be effective.0 -
I've not paid much attention to developments in the rim braked carbon rims... PRO seem to do fine, going down at speeds we are uncapable to reach with open roads.
That said, one has to be mindful that the overwhelming majority of carbon wheels are bought out of vanity.
There really is no pressing need to go that route for joe average club riders seeking to "train" for his yearly 100 mile sportive.
Those who are partial to that kind of vanity driven peer pressure, are probably the same lot who are keen to jump on the electronic or hydraulic innovation, because it's better, it's the future and whatnot...
On the topic, last week I counted 3 folks I follow on Strava who put in their title "forgot to charge Di2, got stuck in one gear"... it seems to be a recurrent hassle, so, be careful what you wish forleft the forum March 20230 -
and undoing the brake hose and feed it through the fork then removing old crushed oluves and sourcing new olives then getting tool to fit them then I presume changing copper crush washers if bicycles have them the getting new fluid and bleeding kit and bleeding them and spilling some fluid.joe_totale-2 said:
You're right, it wouldn't be 15 mins with discs.MattFalle said:I'm just changing the forks on Dirk.
ok, steerer was seized in so I had to cut it off (5 mins with angle grinder), but changing forks:
Undo rim brake
Remove fork
fit new fork
do up one nut holding fork on
done
15 mins
with discs/hydraulics? nah....
However, I don't think it would take me much longer with discs as the only thing that would really add time is bleeding the brake once everything has been refitted.
What would add silly amounts of time would be integrated cockpit nonsense and fully internal cables getting in the way.
agree a billion % about stupid intergrated cockpit and cables.
now they are stupid..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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the whole principle is ease of home spannering and not having to pay the shop a billion pounds to do anything to your bike if you can't do it at home.ibr17xvii said:MattFalle said:I'm just changing the forks on Dirk.
ok, steerer was seized in so I had to cut it off (5 mins with angle grinder), but changing forks:
Undo rim brake
Remove fork
fit new fork
do up one nut holding fork on
done
15 mins
with discs/hydraulics? nah....
I doubt your average consumer would be thinking "I better not buy this disc braked bike in case I need to change the forks".
Just as you've never snapped a brake cable in XX amount of years, I've never needed to change my forks. It's hardly a benefit of rims or a disadvantage of discs..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Well when it comes to electronic gears, I'm 100% with you Ugo.
Maybe it's because I've done a fair amount of off road riding for a while now so am used to working with hydraulic brakes, hence it wasn't such a leap for me. People do like to stick with what they know.
See also tubeless although frankly road tubeless is not worth the hassle.0 -
Joe speaks sense.
FACT.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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About 20-25 years ago, we went from presenting with acetate overheads to using Powerpoint.
I remember that I could prepare a 20 minutes presentation in maybe an hour, whereas now it takes a week...
Innovation is always assumed to make things better, but when you think about it, often it is just a waste of time.
In 2015 I gave up teaching using visual support such as Power point... the amount of time required to prepare a lecture was just getting ridiculous... now I write on a piece of paper (or virtual paper if remote) with a visualiser (or Teams/Zoom) and lecture preparation takes minutes, simply a matter of mentally going over what I want to teach, often whilst I am already cycling to work (two pigeons with one stone).
There is no difference in student feedback or in learning outcomes being achieved... I'm not sure how these software and platforms have made things better or easier.
Same applies to advancements in bicycle technology... mostly a waste of time
left the forum March 20230 -
most of those words are actually real and the majority, well, all of them are very boring, but I think what Ugo is trying to get at is that all technology ain't great so don't get mugged by the marketing.ugo.santalucia said:About 20-25 years ago, we went from presenting with acetate overheads to using Powerpoint.
I remember that I could prepare a 20 minutes presentation in maybe an hour, whereas now it takes a week...
Innovation is always assumed to make things better, but when you think about it, often it is just a waste of time.
In 2015 I gave up teaching using visual support such as Power point... the amount of time required to prepare a lecture was just getting ridiculous... now I write on a piece of paper (or virtual paper if remote) with a visualiser (or Teams/Zoom) and lecture preparation takes minutes, simply a matter of mentally going over what I want to teach, often whilst I am already cycling to work (two pigeons with one stone).
There is no difference in student feedback or in learning outcomes being achieved... I'm not sure how these software and platforms have made things better or easier.
Same applies to advancements in bicycle technology... mostly a waste of time.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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MattFalle said:
most of those words are actually real and the majority, well, all of them are very boring, but I think what Ugo is trying to get at is that all technology ain't great so don't get mugged by the marketing.ugo.santalucia said:About 20-25 years ago, we went from presenting with acetate overheads to using Powerpoint.
I remember that I could prepare a 20 minutes presentation in maybe an hour, whereas now it takes a week...
Innovation is always assumed to make things better, but when you think about it, often it is just a waste of time.
In 2015 I gave up teaching using visual support such as Power point... the amount of time required to prepare a lecture was just getting ridiculous... now I write on a piece of paper (or virtual paper if remote) with a visualiser (or Teams/Zoom) and lecture preparation takes minutes, simply a matter of mentally going over what I want to teach, often whilst I am already cycling to work (two pigeons with one stone).
There is no difference in student feedback or in learning outcomes being achieved... I'm not sure how these software and platforms have made things better or easier.
Same applies to advancements in bicycle technology... mostly a waste of time
Don't get mugged by the marketing & although you should absolutely take advice from folk on internet forums who probably know more than you do, at the end of the day make up your own mind.
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Agree completely my man otherwise we'd all be drone sheep.
Wise words..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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In my experience disc brakes make you slow. These days I rarely catch anyone up but when I do they are usually on discs.
Case proved
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Some technology is good, some is not so good. What I have seen over the past 10-15 years in the bicycle world is mostly not so good.MattFalle said:
most of those words are actually real and the majority, well, all of them are very boring, but I think what Ugo is trying to get at is that all technology ain't great so don't get mugged by the marketing.ugo.santalucia said:About 20-25 years ago, we went from presenting with acetate overheads to using Powerpoint.
I remember that I could prepare a 20 minutes presentation in maybe an hour, whereas now it takes a week...
Innovation is always assumed to make things better, but when you think about it, often it is just a waste of time.
In 2015 I gave up teaching using visual support such as Power point... the amount of time required to prepare a lecture was just getting ridiculous... now I write on a piece of paper (or virtual paper if remote) with a visualiser (or Teams/Zoom) and lecture preparation takes minutes, simply a matter of mentally going over what I want to teach, often whilst I am already cycling to work (two pigeons with one stone).
There is no difference in student feedback or in learning outcomes being achieved... I'm not sure how these software and platforms have made things better or easier.
Same applies to advancements in bicycle technology... mostly a waste of time
My feeling is that the stringent UCI rules have put a lid to innovation that is actually useful, so manufacturers tend to focus on stuff which makes zero difference, but can be sold as "new" for a lot of money.
left the forum March 20230 -
I actually prefer the brake feel on my rim brake vs hydro. Likely that's down to having cheap hydros an expensive rim brakes (Shimano RS505 Hydros Vs SRAM Red rim), but back when I rode MTB I was running a mix of SLX and XTR an had similar experience, OK modulation is good but actual feedback was lacking.
In terms of actual stopping power I'd say they are similar an weirdly I feel more confident on the rim brakes when descending.
In terms of maintenance discs are far more fussy I'll be changing the groupset on the hrydo brake bike at some point soon. cable brake would be easy unhook from the brake an whip the inners out an likely re use them.
Hydros, nope sorry have to drain them, hopefully remove the barb from the shifter end if not its a new set of hoses barbs an olives. Then the fun of re pressing new barbs an fitting, filling then bleeding an trying to feed a hydro line through internal cable routing is much harder than a gear cable outer.
A lot of the "new" technology appears to be as Ugo said minimal changes an most are carried over from MTB an DH for example finned brake pads first appeared on DH bikes running 203mm or bigger rotors an 6 pot callipers to help dissipate the daft levels of heat they can produce.0 -
I rode down a hill that was something like 15% over 3km last week in the steep section. At the bottom I couldn't touch my bike rims. I wonder what poncy road disks would have been like? I'd want something like big MTB rotors for that.
Maybe disks would have been better for that sort of descent? Less chance of blowing a tire.BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme0 -
Etape du Dales 2015, there was a monumental tailwind going down Buttertubs, so I had to brake hard. At the bottom, I got a glimpse of the front rotor glowing red and a whiff of burnt pad. The rotor then became a shade of blue for a while... pads were sintered, so they did survive fine.davidof said:I rode down a hill that was something like 15% over 3km last week in the steep section. At the bottom I couldn't touch my bike rims. I wonder what poncy road disks would have been like? I'd want something like big MTB rotors for that.
Maybe disks would have been better for that sort of descent? Less chance of blowing a tire.left the forum March 20230 -
so you favour disks for that kind of descent as there is less risk of the tires blowing?ugo.santalucia said:
Etape du Dales 2015, there was a monumental tailwind going down Buttertubs, so I had to brake hard. At the bottom, I got a glimpse of the front rotor glowing red and a whiff of burnt pad. The rotor then became a shade of blue for a while... pads were sintered, so they did survive fine.
BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme0 -
just learn to brake properly and rim brakes are perfectly fine for descending anything..
The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Don't know, I've never had a tyre blowing off, so I am not leaning one way or the other. I just misjudged how steeply the road gets to a T junction and the tail wind... local knowledge and alldavidof said:
so you favour disks for that kind of descent as there is less risk of the tires blowing?ugo.santalucia said:
Etape du Dales 2015, there was a monumental tailwind going down Buttertubs, so I had to brake hard. At the bottom, I got a glimpse of the front rotor glowing red and a whiff of burnt pad. The rotor then became a shade of blue for a while... pads were sintered, so they did survive fine.left the forum March 20230 -
Trying to think of the longest, hardest braking I've done. Madelaine? Luz Ardiden?...hmmm. Had to involve hairpins and not be a fast drag. Dunno...
Anyway, all negotiated safely on rim brakes. UK hills are piece of....over before you know it.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Just don't draft w@nkers who are head down racing on their disc brakes bikes...MattFalle said:just learn to brake properly and rim brakes are perfectly fine for descending anything.
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Do what you do on a motorbike, sit up an act as an air brake, its surprisingly effective, an if the one in front is still head down get out from behind them. More frontal area the better.elbowloh said:
Just don't draft w@nkers who are head down racing on their disc brakes bikes...MattFalle said:just learn to brake properly and rim brakes are perfectly fine for descending anything.
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