TDF 2021:- Stage 3, Lorient > Pontivy 182.9 km **Spoilers**
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The point I was making that there is no pleasing some people.rozzer32 said:
So let’s spice up the races by making them dangerous and hope for more crashes?blazing_saddles said:
Ironically those who are calling for greater safety and longer neutralisations are usually to be found complaining that races are boring.
Crashes do not make for an entertaining race.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Can't remember any of these videos showing so much pushing and shoving.
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I don't think they had to completely neutralise the stage, just not go into narrow tight corners quite so hot.RichN95. said:Pross said:That sums it up, the riders have it in their power to control how they ride if they think the roads are too dangerous to race flat out. The Roglic crash was nothing to do with the road layout and nor was Ewan's. The one where Haig got injured was on a difficult corner but if we are going to avoid narrow roads, tight turns and street furniture it will rule out large parts of France and mean stage finishes in out of town industrial zones
And whenever the riders do take action everyone criticises them. I doubt you would have applauded if they had refused to race the last 20km. It would have been "if you won;t race we'll find others who will" and then there will be faux concern when there's big crashes.
Do other sports actively try to jeopardise its star names. It can't be good for viewing figures, It's very simple. Have a prologue and hold the early sprint stages on big roads. Then things will calm down a bit.
I also don't see anything that was jeopardising star names. Roglic crashed out for no apparent reason on a straight road when there was spare width, I still don't know what Geraint did, Ewan took himself and Sagan out in a greatly reduced sprint.
As Millar said they race on far more challenging roads than the ones today. The approaches into big cities are often worse, the roads are wide but there are loads of roundabouts and islands that create a bigger hazard.0 -
the mass half wheeling that occurs across the width of the road is very 21st cent. 1st-week big pile-up accidents used to occur in the middle of the bunch about a third of the way down an arrow-headed peloton...now there nearly always someone clipping a wheel in the gutter trying to hold a position or move up.
some thought on course design in context to how the bunch will be racing at the point may be in order but predicting the race assumes some superhuman prescience. the first few days at the tour have a recognized pattern of nervous riders losing their 5h1t... you get crashes on some pretty benign Parcours. I just don't know."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm1 -
Maybe if they slowed down a bit
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Geshke doesn't like it either:
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Rowe got fined for swearing at the jury:
Funny how Roglic seems to have got away with being behind the JV car.0 -
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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So a standard sprint stage thentailwindhome said:2 -
It would be ironic if there was one of those pileups you sometimes get when the riders are taking it easy and stop paying attention.
By my reckoning there were 6 crashes today off which one (possibly two, couldn't work out the circumstances of Geraint's) were possibly related to the roads. Fact is the biggest cause of crashes are the riders themselves, lots seem to happen on dead straight roads with no obstacles.0 -
Gifs don't work on here - Twitter to the rescue!3 -
Re. narrow technical finishes - I'm sure we've all heard some claim (Big Maggy for certain) that such run ins are safer because they string the bunch out.
The UCI have taken some steps - the 3 second rule and the 3km rule - there's more that could be done such as taking GC time further out but it starts to impact on the race in a more fundamental way and as some of you have said it wouldn't prevent many of these crashes anyway.
Is the race just too big ?
Are rider positions on their bikes optimising aerodynamics over control?
Are race radios putting too much pressure on for riders to get to the front especially at certain points of the race ?
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
They might have done when he was riding 20 years ago.DeVlaeminck said:Re. narrow technical finishes - I'm sure we've all heard some claim (Big Maggy for certain) that such run ins are safer because they string the bunch out.
Twitter: @RichN950 -
I reckon worth looking intoDeVlaeminck said:Re. narrow technical finish?
Are race radios putting too much pressure on for riders to get to the front especially at certain points of the race ?"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Not true, only in the last 15 years or so has the incident rate started to steadily get worse, there are reasons why riders take greater risks, this 'tension' notion is frankly BS.blazing_saddles said:A whole lot of nonsense being talked on forum/social media about neutralisations. In Rog's case, the 8kms the riders asked for would have made no difference.
The Tour's first week is special, precisely because tensions always run higher as the prize is bigger.
Big crashes have always been part of that.
Ironically those who are calling for greater safety and longer neutralisations are usually to be found complaining that races are boring.
It's about taking greater risks/pushing to win, get a better position/make up places on the course, particularly at points where it is stupidly reckless to do so.
I'm not going to mention it specifically but this risk taking ALWAYS happens to increase at the same time a certain intervention is brought about, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
It's not just correlation, it is causation, the evidence is there in all sports, in the workplace and on the roads, in the home etc.
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Rider was saying that as GC contenders are adamant on being in the first 20 the trend has put a squeeze on the finishes over recent years and the 3 km rule and should be extended on sprint stages. There are 6 line outs at times with some of those teams= no sprinter0
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With the big crash down hill it is mad they were going into that corner not strung out.
If it continues like this then you’re not going to be able to have technical finishes in big races, or at least, if there isn’t a decent selection beforehand as it’s getting to a point where the riders can’t save themselves.
Bunches in week one at the tour just look different. They’re gutter to gutter even at high speed. You can’t even rely on the shape of it in the finale to work out how fast it is as it’s always like that.
It’s a shame as narrow roads with twists is a big part of pro cycling - else riding in the US would be exciting.0 -
No fines for Jumbo Visma for the blatant tow of Roglic & his helpers back to the intermediate group and then the blatant tow of that whole group?0
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I won't labour the point, but going back beyond the past 15 years:tonyf34 said:
Not true, only in the last 15 years or so has the incident rate started to steadily get worse, there are reasons why riders take greater risks, this 'tension' notion is frankly BS.blazing_saddles said:A whole lot of nonsense being talked on forum/social media about neutralisations. In Rog's case, the 8kms the riders asked for would have made no difference.
The Tour's first week is special, precisely because tensions always run higher as the prize is bigger.
Big crashes have always been part of that.
Ironically those who are calling for greater safety and longer neutralisations are usually to be found complaining that races are boring.
It's about taking greater risks/pushing to win, get a better position/make up places on the course, particularly at points where it is stupidly reckless to do so.
I'm not going to mention it specifically but this risk taking ALWAYS happens to increase at the same time a certain intervention is brought about, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
It's not just correlation, it is causation, the evidence is there in all sports, in the workplace and on the roads, in the home etc.
2001: Stage 2, mass crash
2003: first stage into Meaux, huge shunt. (Tyler Hamilton breaking his collarbone, but winning that er freak stage into Bayonne, two weeks later)
Earlier than that, my memory may be playing tricks and perhaps mass pile ups didn't happen back then. It's just my recollection.
Other than that, how is "tensions run higher, as the prize (at the Tour) is bigger", any different to taking greater risks/pushing to win?
Just to be clear, here, that's exactly what I was alluding to. So, I don't disagree with your point."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Minor bugbear of mine, I think it's fine getting a tow if you're caught up in a crash.Dorset_Boy said:No fines for Jumbo Visma for the blatant tow of Roglic & his helpers back to the intermediate group and then the blatant tow of that whole group?
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I hope the UCI president enjoyed that stage to his home town.1
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Agree - just part of the sport to me. Thought they were wrong to stop Ineos doing it with Thomas - and inconsistent to then apparently allow JV to, different stage of the race or not.rick_chasey said:
Minor bugbear of mine, I think it's fine getting a tow if you're caught up in a crash.Dorset_Boy said:No fines for Jumbo Visma for the blatant tow of Roglic & his helpers back to the intermediate group and then the blatant tow of that whole group?
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Yeah agreed. Obviously teams can't take the p!ss but no-one crashes for fun.Lanterne_Rogue said:
Agree - just part of the sport to me. Thought they were wrong to stop Ineos doing it with Thomas - and inconsistent to then apparently allow JV to, different stage of the race or not.rick_chasey said:
Minor bugbear of mine, I think it's fine getting a tow if you're caught up in a crash.Dorset_Boy said:No fines for Jumbo Visma for the blatant tow of Roglic & his helpers back to the intermediate group and then the blatant tow of that whole group?
I do also think that the roads were narrower in the run in and it's harder for the cars to get out of the way safely.0 -
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The Haig crash, it goes from a fast fairly wide road
To a narrow bridge
To a sharp left hand turn.
Only those who were at the front made it to the finish without losing time. How is the lesson from this going to be that the bunch should have been strung out? Who wants to be away from the front?0 -
This is exactly what I mean about the shape of the peloton. It's 4km to go, it's narrow, they're doing 60+kph and it's basically gutter-to-gutter going into a tight corner *they all know is there*.kingstongraham said:The Haig crash, it goes from a fast fairly wide road
To a narrow bridge
To a sharp left hand turn.
Only those who were at the front made it to the finish without losing time. How is the lesson from this going to be that the bunch should have been strung out? Who wants to be away from the front?
I don't think you see that in any other race.0 -
But the guys you see at the front are the ones who made it to the sprint. Anyone further back than maybe the first 20 or so doesn't get through without at least being delayed. Everyone learns the lesson again that you need to make sure it's you at the front. Who's going to make it strung out?rick_chasey said:
This is exactly what I mean about the shape of the peloton. It's 4km to go, it's narrow, they're doing 60+kph and it's basically gutter-to-gutter going into a tight corner *they all know is there*.kingstongraham said:The Haig crash, it goes from a fast fairly wide road
To a narrow bridge
To a sharp left hand turn.
Only those who were at the front made it to the finish without losing time. How is the lesson from this going to be that the bunch should have been strung out? Who wants to be away from the front?
I don't think you see that in any other race.0 -
I can't believe no one has pointed out the obvious. All these crashes are the result of disc brakes, there's a reason no one's won the Tour on them..........
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Is there any overhead of the Haig crash? It's not clear from the footage I've seen that it's caused by the road constricting rather than someone simply going into a downhill corner too fast.0
