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Wout van Aert appreciation thread

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  • phreakphreak Posts: 2,676
    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    I wonder if Pogacar will go easier in the spring from here on. There was a sense that he was doing Strada Bianchi, MSR, Flanders etc. because he thought the Tour would be a foregone conclusion.


    I notice that the media people (e.g. David Millar) would proclaimed this to be the new era of cycling with riders doing all the races are now saying that it was naive for Pogacar to ride through the spring.
    His number of racing days was lower going into the Tour this year compared to last, but perhaps the intensity and distance would have been greater this year.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,201
    edited 22 July
    I think the reality is that Pogacar has met his match... this Vingegaard guy is just as good a climber and having a better team, he managed to get the upper hand. I think Pogacar is at his best or very close to his best, regardless of the spring campaign
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,908
    edited 22 July
    RichN95. said:

    r0bh said:

    The post sky/froome era ...which I guess this is ....is fantastic

    Sky were criticised for being too dominant, which was bad, but now another super team is even more dominant, which is good?
    This because of stuff... Not least the two guys are close

    Real competition

    A reminder hear that Quintana dropped Froome in the third week in both 2013 and 2015. And he was completely isolated on one stage in 2103 with over 100km to go. Quintana and Contador actually beat him in the Vuelta. 2019 was very close until the avalanche stage with as many as five riders in contention.

    With the exception of one short attack by Thomas, Jumbo haven't been attacked once this Tour.
    The super Planck leadout ....

    McNulty and bjerg
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,908
    Froomes giro is still the best GT I have ever watched .... Froomes 2013 tour he shouldn't have won imo.... Isolated on the flat(ish) with two GC rivals from the same team..Where did that happen this year ?

    Froomes tours as races were not that boring just this is better
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • joeyhalloranjoeyhalloran Posts: 733
    RichN95. said:



    With the exception of one short attack by Thomas, Jumbo haven't been attacked once this Tour.

    What tour were you watching? Pog has attacked about 20 times, both up and down hill. It's just that Jonas has been able to match each one.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,917
    Bit weird to say nobody other that GT has attacked JV when Vingegaard closed at least 5 attacks from Pogacar yesterday alone.

    Jumbo-Visma have dominated, but this Tour they've done it in a *very* different way to the classic Sky mountain train. I don't remember Sky/Ineos setting up anything like the mugging of Pogacar on Granon. Even once they had the lead they had a different tactic to support Vingegaard - instead of just riding the train hard all the way to the last kms they put riders up the road at strategic points
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,908

    Bit weird to say nobody other that GT has attacked JV when Vingegaard closed at least 5 attacks from Pogacar yesterday alone.

    Jumbo-Visma have dominated, but this Tour they've done it in a *very* different way to the classic Sky mountain train. I don't remember Sky/Ineos setting up anything like the mugging of Pogacar on Granon. Even once they had the lead they had a different tactic to support Vingegaard - instead of just riding the train hard all the way to the last kms they put riders up the road at strategic points

    Sky played g off very well in 2018 .... Not the same but showed how 2 leaders can work
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • r0bhr0bh Posts: 1,762
    I think a lot of people remember the mountain train for Wiggins in 2012 and think that's how Sky rode for every one of their Tour wins. In reality, they never had anything like that much control for any of Froome's wins
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,917
    r0bh said:

    I think a lot of people remember the mountain train for Wiggins in 2012 and think that's how Sky rode for every one of their Tour wins. In reality, they never had anything like that much control for any of Froome's wins

    The difference between the Wiggins train and the Froome train was the first was almost purely defensive, the second used as a launchpad for the strongest climber in the race. They had wobbly moments but the tactics never really changed.

    Both Thomas and Bernal in 18 and 19 were different, where they did play with genuine double leaders
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,375



    The difference between the Wiggins train and the Froome train was the first was almost purely defensive, the second used as a launchpad for the strongest climber in the race. They had wobbly moments but the tactics never really changed.

    Kind of like saying George Graham's Arsenal and Arsene Wenger's Arsenal were the same as they both played 4-4-2
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 20,290

    r0bh said:

    I think a lot of people remember the mountain train for Wiggins in 2012 and think that's how Sky rode for every one of their Tour wins. In reality, they never had anything like that much control for any of Froome's wins

    The difference between the Wiggins train and the Froome train was the first was almost purely defensive, the second used as a launchpad for the strongest climber in the race. They had wobbly moments but the tactics never really changed.

    Which was the Jumbo train MO, up until this edition.
    The difference being that this year, they couldn't ride a defensive race and expect to dispatch Pogacar.

    Needs must and all that.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,917
    edited 22 July
    RichN95. said:



    The difference between the Wiggins train and the Froome train was the first was almost purely defensive, the second used as a launchpad for the strongest climber in the race. They had wobbly moments but the tactics never really changed.

    Kind of like saying George Graham's Arsenal and Arsene Wenger's Arsenal were the same as they both played 4-4-2
    More like the difference between Spain's tiki taka variations over time . The Froome version was what they started out with, using their passing and movement to create devastating chances, the Wiggins version what they ended up with post Iniesta & Xavi , where it became more about keeping the ball
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,375

    r0bh said:

    I think a lot of people remember the mountain train for Wiggins in 2012 and think that's how Sky rode for every one of their Tour wins. In reality, they never had anything like that much control for any of Froome's wins

    The difference between the Wiggins train and the Froome train was the first was almost purely defensive, the second used as a launchpad for the strongest climber in the race. They had wobbly moments but the tactics never really changed.

    Which was the Jumbo train MO, up until this edition.
    The difference being that this year, they couldn't ride a defensive race and expect to dispatch Pogacar.

    Needs must and all that.

    They still followed the Froome model. One big attack early on to gain the lead (helped by Pogacar bonking) and then defend it. The defense looked different as they had lost Roglic and Kruijswijk, Take Thomas and Poels off Froome and he would have had race differently too (as he tended to in the Vuelta)
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,306 Lives Here
    Main difference is the size of the team remaining and Wout
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,917
    RichN95. said:

    r0bh said:

    I think a lot of people remember the mountain train for Wiggins in 2012 and think that's how Sky rode for every one of their Tour wins. In reality, they never had anything like that much control for any of Froome's wins

    The difference between the Wiggins train and the Froome train was the first was almost purely defensive, the second used as a launchpad for the strongest climber in the race. They had wobbly moments but the tactics never really changed.

    Which was the Jumbo train MO, up until this edition.
    The difference being that this year, they couldn't ride a defensive race and expect to dispatch Pogacar.

    Needs must and all that.

    They still followed the Froome model. One big attack early on to gain the lead (helped by Pogacar bonking) and then defend it. The defense looked different as they had lost Roglic and Kruijswijk, Take Thomas and Poels off Froome and he would have had race differently too (as he tended to in the Vuelta)
    That's a seriously reductive and simplistic view of tactics - they're the same because they take a chunk of time and then defend it. It's a bit like saying any team defending a 2-0 lead is playing the same.

    How you actually get the 2 minutes /2 goals tends to be quite important, no?
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • JtomesgreenJtomesgreen Posts: 190
    Reflecting on this years tour, and the performance of WVA, I think that is one of the best GT participations I've ever seen. Regarding the original post, I'd say of all the riders mentioned in this discussion, only G Thomas, Kwia and Cancellara have got close to the level of super domestique that WVA has got to.

    If you took apart van Aert's ride and split it between 3 riders - a Time Trialist, a Breakaway specialist and a Domestique - you would have 3 very successful tours still and 3 riders who would have been seen to have made a significant impact on this race. Only Alaphillipe a couple of years ago has grabbed a race so significantly by the scruff of the neck - whilst only riding for himself. That is absolutely remarkable and something that does not come across in the palmares comparisons
  • amrushtonamrushton Posts: 1,182
    Needs the Roubaix/Flanders wins to raise him to godlike status. Ideally 2 or 3 times to match Boonen
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 63,306 Lives Here
    amrushton said:

    Needs the Roubaix/Flanders wins to raise him to godlike status. Ideally 2 or 3 times to match Boonen

    He's already got one classic.
  • Lulu93Lulu93 Posts: 14

    Reflecting on this years tour, and the performance of WVA, I think that is one of the best GT participations I've ever seen. Regarding the original post, I'd say of all the riders mentioned in this discussion, only G Thomas, Kwia and Cancellara have got close to the level of super domestique that WVA has got to.

    If you took apart van Aert's ride and split it between 3 riders - a Time Trialist, a Breakaway specialist and a Domestique - you would have 3 very successful tours still and 3 riders who would have been seen to have made a significant impact on this race. Only Alaphillipe a couple of years ago has grabbed a race so significantly by the scruff of the neck - whilst only riding for himself. That is absolutely remarkable and something that does not come across in the palmares comparisons

    This is the key point, I think. It says a lot that Vingegaard won the tour, but Wout Van Aert is the one everyone is talking about!

  • m.r.m.m.r.m. Posts: 2,776
    It's only a question of time (and MvdP ) for WVA with all of it. He seems to have taken the next step or another step. Dedicating himself to the road is certainly paying off.
    PTP Champion 2019
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 17,754
    edited 26 July
    It's been a couple of days since the Tour finished, but I'm still thinking 4 or 5 times a day just how good WVA was.

    A combination of Hincapie, Cancellara, Morkov and prime Peter Sagan with an ice hockey enforcer soul.



    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 21,408

    It's been a couple of days since the Tour finished, but I'm still thinking 4 or 5 times a day just how good WVA was.

    A combination of Hincapie, Cancellara, Morkov and prime Peter Sagan with an ice hockey enforcer soul.



    I can't help thinking about how he also wasted so much energy on that insane break with Simmons and Fuglsang.

    To be so strong at the end of the three weeks after being so bad at managing his efforts is incredible.
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