Wout van Aert appreciation thread
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His number of racing days was lower going into the Tour this year compared to last, but perhaps the intensity and distance would have been greater this year.RichN95. said:phreak said:
I wonder if Pogacar will go easier in the spring from here on. There was a sense that he was doing Strada Bianchi, MSR, Flanders etc. because he thought the Tour would be a foregone conclusion.
I notice that the media people (e.g. David Millar) would proclaimed this to be the new era of cycling with riders doing all the races are now saying that it was naive for Pogacar to ride through the spring.0 -
I think the reality is that Pogacar has met his match... this Vingegaard guy is just as good a climber and having a better team, he managed to get the upper hand. I think Pogacar is at his best or very close to his best, regardless of the spring campaignleft the forum March 20230
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The super Planck leadout ....RichN95. said:mididoctors said:
This because of stuff... Not least the two guys are closer0bh said:
Sky were criticised for being too dominant, which was bad, but now another super team is even more dominant, which is good?mididoctors said:The post sky/froome era ...which I guess this is ....is fantastic
Real competition
A reminder hear that Quintana dropped Froome in the third week in both 2013 and 2015. And he was completely isolated on one stage in 2103 with over 100km to go. Quintana and Contador actually beat him in the Vuelta. 2019 was very close until the avalanche stage with as many as five riders in contention.
With the exception of one short attack by Thomas, Jumbo haven't been attacked once this Tour.
McNulty and bjerg"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Froomes giro is still the best GT I have ever watched .... Froomes 2013 tour he shouldn't have won imo.... Isolated on the flat(ish) with two GC rivals from the same team..Where did that happen this year ?
Froomes tours as races were not that boring just this is better"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm1 -
What tour were you watching? Pog has attacked about 20 times, both up and down hill. It's just that Jonas has been able to match each one.RichN95. said:
With the exception of one short attack by Thomas, Jumbo haven't been attacked once this Tour.0 -
Bit weird to say nobody other that GT has attacked JV when Vingegaard closed at least 5 attacks from Pogacar yesterday alone.
Jumbo-Visma have dominated, but this Tour they've done it in a *very* different way to the classic Sky mountain train. I don't remember Sky/Ineos setting up anything like the mugging of Pogacar on Granon. Even once they had the lead they had a different tactic to support Vingegaard - instead of just riding the train hard all the way to the last kms they put riders up the road at strategic pointsWarning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Sky played g off very well in 2018 .... Not the same but showed how 2 leaders can workNo_Ta_Doctor said:Bit weird to say nobody other that GT has attacked JV when Vingegaard closed at least 5 attacks from Pogacar yesterday alone.
Jumbo-Visma have dominated, but this Tour they've done it in a *very* different way to the classic Sky mountain train. I don't remember Sky/Ineos setting up anything like the mugging of Pogacar on Granon. Even once they had the lead they had a different tactic to support Vingegaard - instead of just riding the train hard all the way to the last kms they put riders up the road at strategic points"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
I think a lot of people remember the mountain train for Wiggins in 2012 and think that's how Sky rode for every one of their Tour wins. In reality, they never had anything like that much control for any of Froome's wins0
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The difference between the Wiggins train and the Froome train was the first was almost purely defensive, the second used as a launchpad for the strongest climber in the race. They had wobbly moments but the tactics never really changed.r0bh said:I think a lot of people remember the mountain train for Wiggins in 2012 and think that's how Sky rode for every one of their Tour wins. In reality, they never had anything like that much control for any of Froome's wins
Both Thomas and Bernal in 18 and 19 were different, where they did play with genuine double leadersWarning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Kind of like saying George Graham's Arsenal and Arsene Wenger's Arsenal were the same as they both played 4-4-2No_Ta_Doctor said:
The difference between the Wiggins train and the Froome train was the first was almost purely defensive, the second used as a launchpad for the strongest climber in the race. They had wobbly moments but the tactics never really changed.Twitter: @RichN951 -
Which was the Jumbo train MO, up until this edition.No_Ta_Doctor said:
The difference between the Wiggins train and the Froome train was the first was almost purely defensive, the second used as a launchpad for the strongest climber in the race. They had wobbly moments but the tactics never really changed.r0bh said:I think a lot of people remember the mountain train for Wiggins in 2012 and think that's how Sky rode for every one of their Tour wins. In reality, they never had anything like that much control for any of Froome's wins
The difference being that this year, they couldn't ride a defensive race and expect to dispatch Pogacar.
Needs must and all that."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
More like the difference between Spain's tiki taka variations over time . The Froome version was what they started out with, using their passing and movement to create devastating chances, the Wiggins version what they ended up with post Iniesta & Xavi , where it became more about keeping the ballRichN95. said:
Kind of like saying George Graham's Arsenal and Arsene Wenger's Arsenal were the same as they both played 4-4-2No_Ta_Doctor said:
The difference between the Wiggins train and the Froome train was the first was almost purely defensive, the second used as a launchpad for the strongest climber in the race. They had wobbly moments but the tactics never really changed.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
blazing_saddles said:
Which was the Jumbo train MO, up until this edition.No_Ta_Doctor said:
The difference between the Wiggins train and the Froome train was the first was almost purely defensive, the second used as a launchpad for the strongest climber in the race. They had wobbly moments but the tactics never really changed.r0bh said:I think a lot of people remember the mountain train for Wiggins in 2012 and think that's how Sky rode for every one of their Tour wins. In reality, they never had anything like that much control for any of Froome's wins
The difference being that this year, they couldn't ride a defensive race and expect to dispatch Pogacar.
Needs must and all that.
They still followed the Froome model. One big attack early on to gain the lead (helped by Pogacar bonking) and then defend it. The defense looked different as they had lost Roglic and Kruijswijk, Take Thomas and Poels off Froome and he would have had race differently too (as he tended to in the Vuelta)Twitter: @RichN950 -
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That's a seriously reductive and simplistic view of tactics - they're the same because they take a chunk of time and then defend it. It's a bit like saying any team defending a 2-0 lead is playing the same.RichN95. said:blazing_saddles said:
Which was the Jumbo train MO, up until this edition.No_Ta_Doctor said:
The difference between the Wiggins train and the Froome train was the first was almost purely defensive, the second used as a launchpad for the strongest climber in the race. They had wobbly moments but the tactics never really changed.r0bh said:I think a lot of people remember the mountain train for Wiggins in 2012 and think that's how Sky rode for every one of their Tour wins. In reality, they never had anything like that much control for any of Froome's wins
The difference being that this year, they couldn't ride a defensive race and expect to dispatch Pogacar.
Needs must and all that.
They still followed the Froome model. One big attack early on to gain the lead (helped by Pogacar bonking) and then defend it. The defense looked different as they had lost Roglic and Kruijswijk, Take Thomas and Poels off Froome and he would have had race differently too (as he tended to in the Vuelta)
How you actually get the 2 minutes /2 goals tends to be quite important, no?Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Reflecting on this years tour, and the performance of WVA, I think that is one of the best GT participations I've ever seen. Regarding the original post, I'd say of all the riders mentioned in this discussion, only G Thomas, Kwia and Cancellara have got close to the level of super domestique that WVA has got to.
If you took apart van Aert's ride and split it between 3 riders - a Time Trialist, a Breakaway specialist and a Domestique - you would have 3 very successful tours still and 3 riders who would have been seen to have made a significant impact on this race. Only Alaphillipe a couple of years ago has grabbed a race so significantly by the scruff of the neck - whilst only riding for himself. That is absolutely remarkable and something that does not come across in the palmares comparisons2 -
Needs the Roubaix/Flanders wins to raise him to godlike status. Ideally 2 or 3 times to match Boonen0
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This is the key point, I think. It says a lot that Vingegaard won the tour, but Wout Van Aert is the one everyone is talking about!Jtomesgreen said:Reflecting on this years tour, and the performance of WVA, I think that is one of the best GT participations I've ever seen. Regarding the original post, I'd say of all the riders mentioned in this discussion, only G Thomas, Kwia and Cancellara have got close to the level of super domestique that WVA has got to.
If you took apart van Aert's ride and split it between 3 riders - a Time Trialist, a Breakaway specialist and a Domestique - you would have 3 very successful tours still and 3 riders who would have been seen to have made a significant impact on this race. Only Alaphillipe a couple of years ago has grabbed a race so significantly by the scruff of the neck - whilst only riding for himself. That is absolutely remarkable and something that does not come across in the palmares comparisons
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It's only a question of time (and MvdP ) for WVA with all of it. He seems to have taken the next step or another step. Dedicating himself to the road is certainly paying off.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230
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It's been a couple of days since the Tour finished, but I'm still thinking 4 or 5 times a day just how good WVA was.
A combination of Hincapie, Cancellara, Morkov and prime Peter Sagan with an ice hockey enforcer soul.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!1 -
I can't help thinking about how he also wasted so much energy on that insane break with Simmons and Fuglsang.tailwindhome said:It's been a couple of days since the Tour finished, but I'm still thinking 4 or 5 times a day just how good WVA was.
A combination of Hincapie, Cancellara, Morkov and prime Peter Sagan with an ice hockey enforcer soul.
To be so strong at the end of the three weeks after being so bad at managing his efforts is incredible.2 -
So in the wake of this season where now for Wout ?
The question has been raised does he need to focus more on his own targets and less on supporting Jonas at the Tour?
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Main thing is he needs to sort out his one day race tactics. It's all very impressive riding on the front and burying everyone in the Tour when you're a domestique, but you can't do it when you need to win the one day race.
Yesterday he was so visible on the front from 100km to 50km for no good reason. Belgium had a tonne of riders there, more than any other country; why was he joining in the pace setting?
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He gets free reign through the spring then presumably has to adapt his regime to build for the tour, and then has freedom again after.DeVlaeminck said:So in the wake of this season where now for Wout ?
The question has been raised does he need to focus more on his own targets and less on supporting Jonas at the Tour?
His biggest issue is he is too conservative when racing, and although more than willing to do his fair share of work in a break or trying to close one down, he rarely makes the killer move himself.
It feels like he is 'happier' to place second or third without winning than to take the chance to win by making the eecisive attack and then failing to make the top 10.
Also, look at MvdP and Pog - they are always smiling and laughing, whatever the result. Wout just looks too up tight and serious.
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Yes. If he goes to the Tour it should be to target stage wins and the green jersey not to sit towing the bunch up mountains until he has dropped all bar a few team leaders and one or two mountain domestiques. It's a ridiculous waste his talents, You could argue this year the impending birth of his child was a factor but going forward that really shouldn't be his role. In some ways his versatility could limit his achievements.DeVlaeminck said:So in the wake of this season where now for Wout ?
The question has been raised does he need to focus more on his own targets and less on supporting Jonas at the Tour?0 -
Summary - Jack of all trades, master of none.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Do we forget he won two stages and the green jersey last year *while* towing Jonas up mountains?Warning No formatter is installed for the format0
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Anyway, he's a great rider, but this is what he sees in his nightmares
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three.No_Ta_Doctor said:Do we forget he won two stages and the green jersey last year *while* towing Jonas up mountains?
I think it's that he's going to probably win a sprint against anyone who he gets to the finish of a hard race with, but he's finding there's at least one rider in each big one day race who is strong enough to stop that happening.
And he does always seem to think he has to close every gap himself.0
