Will you have the Covid-19 vaccine?
Comments
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Just an observation, apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick. No need to be rude.DeVlaeminck said:Errr no. I'm suggesting the risk is being misrepresented by some of you - that's a different thing to it being risky.
And I'm giving First Aspect the opportunity to clarify why he thinks he's right because whilst I disagree with him I don't approach the discussion as a battle I'm trying to win.
So back in your box til you've got something to contribute.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
DeV, as a mere observer of the 'debate', you do appear to be banging on about The Risk.
Correlation ain't causation.
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I'm only banging on about the risk because some comments suggest that the rate of blood clots post AZ is no higher, or even lower, than we'd expect in the population as a whole.
Whilst that is true it seems the post AZ blood clots in question are very much more dangerous.
If there were people playing up the risk I'd be arguing with them.
I also do question whether Covid is really causing blood clots, strokes and DVTs at the rate that professor quoted because that would mean millions of incidences. I'm guessing maybe he was talking about a subset of more serious Covid cases rather than including the asymptomatic and those with very minor symptoms but nobody seems able to clarify. I mean am I the only one thinking nearly 2m DVTs in the UK caused by covid is surprising?[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
The numbers are just so completely out of whack that it's hard to take seriously.
7 deaths from clotting following having a vaccine. Don't know how many of the vaccinated in the UK actually had AZ though. Maybe half? So 7 / ~16,000,000?
On the other hand, present in ICU with covid and you have a ~50% (30-70) chance of getting a clot. https://www.hriuk.org/health/your-health/lifestyle/people-with-coronavirus-are-at-risk-of-blood-clots-and-strokes
These are several orders of magnitude different no?
What you're saying reads as "these 2m covid DVT cases might actually only be... 1 million, so we should take more note of those 7 vaccine clotting cases."
What am I missing?
It's wrong to compare clotting with clotting anyway. We should be comparing the vaccine risk (which is a possible infinitesimal risk of death from a clot) with the whole covid risk (which includes death from various stuff, not just pulmonary embolisms). Then laughing and having a vaccine.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
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It is quite clear that ca. 6000 lives have already been saved in the UK from vaccinations, vs. possibly 78 cases of this rare blood clot and 19 deaths caused by them - although causality is still only at the "possibly" stage.DeVlaeminck said:I'm only banging on about the risk because some comments suggest that the rate of blood clots post AZ is no higher, or even lower, than we'd expect in the population as a whole.
Whilst that is true it seems the post AZ blood clots in question are very much more dangerous.
If there were people playing up the risk I'd be arguing with them.
I also do question whether Covid is really causing blood clots, strokes and DVTs at the rate that professor quoted because that would mean millions of incidences. I'm guessing maybe he was talking about a subset of more serious Covid cases rather than including the asymptomatic and those with very minor symptoms but nobody seems able to clarify. I mean am I the only one thinking nearly 2m DVTs in the UK caused by covid is surprising?
I am only arguing that since the rate of all types of blood clots from covid is so high, and the number of infections or serious infections prevented is also extremely high, it is entirely possible that of those, blood clots causing serious outcomes that might otherwise have occurred, which may only be a tiny fraction, more than 78 have been prevented.
Interesting that the J&J vaccine also seems to have a blood clotting issue. I would be amazed if the Sputnik and Chinese ones didn't have the same issue.
Depending on the mechanism it is also quite possible that the mRNA ones do as well. So we should all go back to taking anti-inflammatories and hoping it doesn't get too serious... but wait, they all cause blood clots!0 -
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If you have one you don’t know about, might not be to clever.0
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Yes, but you are much much more likely to die riding a bicycle on the road, so I do not recommend that you do this to reduce the risk of blood clots.rick_chasey said:Isn't exercise good for avoiding blood clots?
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First.Aspect said:
Yes, but you are much much more likely to die riding a bicycle on the road, so I do not recommend that you do this to reduce the risk of blood clots.rick_chasey said:Isn't exercise good for avoiding blood clots?
It's complicated this not getting deaded thing, isn't it?0 -
I feel that eventually I will fail.briantrumpet said:First.Aspect said:
Yes, but you are much much more likely to die riding a bicycle on the road, so I do not recommend that you do this to reduce the risk of blood clots.rick_chasey said:Isn't exercise good for avoiding blood clots?
It's complicated this not getting deaded thing, isn't it?0 -
You must be doing it wrong.First.Aspect said:
I feel that eventually I will fail.briantrumpet said:First.Aspect said:
Yes, but you are much much more likely to die riding a bicycle on the road, so I do not recommend that you do this to reduce the risk of blood clots.rick_chasey said:Isn't exercise good for avoiding blood clots?
It's complicated this not getting deaded thing, isn't it?
I’ve been avoiding it for longer than I care to remember.
More of the same is all that is required.1 -
Calls for Johnson & Johnson vaccine to be paused in the US, roll-out to be delayed... we have dodged that bullet, for now
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Dodged? 6 clots in 6.8 million jabs means you could line up shoulder to shoulder in a line around 400 kilometers long, and one of you would get hit.
Hell of a dodge.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
It is because they are awash with AZ vaccines that other countries have bought, that they have prevented from being exported and that no one in the EU really wants. So they don't need the J&J one.joe2019 said:
Oh.... maybe they have delayed the roll-out to the EU without a good reason.pangolin said:Dodged? 6 clots in 6.8 million jabs means you could line up shoulder to shoulder in a line around 400 kilometers long, and one of you would get hit.
Hell of a dodge.0 -
First.Aspect said:
It is because they are awash with AZ vaccines that other countries have bought, that they have prevented from being exported and that no one in the EU really wants. So they don't need the J&J one.joe2019 said:
Oh.... maybe they have delayed the roll-out to the EU without a good reason.pangolin said:Dodged? 6 clots in 6.8 million jabs means you could line up shoulder to shoulder in a line around 400 kilometers long, and one of you would get hit.
Hell of a dodge.
Thanks for the clarification.
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23 covid related deaths here in AstraZeneca land, yesterday.
Plus a 19 total deaths attributed to blood clots since the roll out of AZ.
(An estimated 40,000 die each year in the UK from VTE.)
Meanwhile yesterday, over 1870 combined covid deaths among the five largest populations in the EU.
The EU's safety first policy: Killing their citizens by the thousand, while saving single figures.
It's a mad world.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.2 -
Denmark becomes the first country to completely stop using the AstraZeneca vaccine, over concerns about blood clot cases.
Bonkers."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
blazing_saddles said:
Denmark becomes the first country to completely stop using the AstraZeneca vaccine, over concerns about blood clot cases.
Bonkers.
The need to prove their point by stopping using any drugs that cause any deaths in more than one in a million.1 -
heres the thing, the ones that die get the attention and the family suing them. the ones that live are merge into the mass.
the one that dies was MURDERED as far as the opposition is concerned. if more die through prevarication they were MURDERED by inpet handling. there is no glory here for the governments involved.
Though i personally think Boris has done a blinder so far on the vaccine front. never mind the yeah but if hed locked down a day earlier 1000000 less people would have died (which is kind of my point above)
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Latest issue of the More or Less: Behind the Stats podcast looks at vaccine (assumed) cases of blot clots vs contraceptive pill associated blood clots. Latter has much, orders of magnitude higher incidence but hey that's ok, no big deal, just life innit.0
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They also calculated the fatality risk. About the same as the AZ jab.orraloon said:Latest issue of the More or Less: Behind the Stats podcast looks at vaccine (assumed) cases of blot clots vs contraceptive pill associated blood clots. Latter has much, orders of magnitude higher incidence but hey that's ok, no big deal, just life innit.
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You’ve completely peed all over the fact that of the 150000+ that have actually died (many of who wouldn’t have if the government had handled things properly in the pre-vaccination period) by jumping between 1 and 1000000 as if those are the important numbers. Not cool.david37 said:heres the thing, the ones that die get the attention and the family suing them. the ones that live are merge into the mass.
the one that dies was MURDERED as far as the opposition is concerned. if more die through prevarication they were MURDERED by inpet handling. there is no glory here for the governments involved.
Though i personally think Boris has done a blinder so far on the vaccine front. never mind the yeah but if hed locked down a day earlier 1000000 less people would have died (which is kind of my point above)0 -
and how pray would we have had few or no deaths? all the forecasts were that in the absence of vaccine that the total number of deaths would be greater than 200k and that the thing that would vary was the time over which they happened.johngti said:
You’ve completely peed all over the fact that of the 150000+ that have actually died (many of who wouldn’t have if the government had handled things properly in the pre-vaccination period) by jumping between 1 and 1000000 as if those are the important numbers. Not cool.david37 said:heres the thing, the ones that die get the attention and the family suing them. the ones that live are merge into the mass.
the one that dies was MURDERED as far as the opposition is concerned. if more die through prevarication they were MURDERED by inpet handling. there is no glory here for the governments involved.
Though i personally think Boris has done a blinder so far on the vaccine front. never mind the yeah but if hed locked down a day earlier 1000000 less people would have died (which is kind of my point above)
hyperbole in this case is "not cool" though your comment does kind of prove my point. thank you.0 -
Massive case of the pot and kettle there. If you want hyperbole, you’ve provided it. “The one that dies was MURDERED” followed by “if we had locked down a day earlier 1000000 less people would have died” is a statement that is ridiculous at both ends and that appears designed to make the huge number of excess deaths that have occurred appear less significant.david37 said:
and how pray would we have had few or no deaths? all the forecasts were that in the absence of vaccine that the total number of deaths would be greater than 200k and that the thing that would vary was the time over which they happened.johngti said:
You’ve completely peed all over the fact that of the 150000+ that have actually died (many of who wouldn’t have if the government had handled things properly in the pre-vaccination period) by jumping between 1 and 1000000 as if those are the important numbers. Not cool.david37 said:heres the thing, the ones that die get the attention and the family suing them. the ones that live are merge into the mass.
the one that dies was MURDERED as far as the opposition is concerned. if more die through prevarication they were MURDERED by inpet handling. there is no glory here for the governments involved.
Though i personally think Boris has done a blinder so far on the vaccine front. never mind the yeah but if hed locked down a day earlier 1000000 less people would have died (which is kind of my point above)
hyperbole in this case is "not cool" though your comment does kind of prove my point. thank you.
Models that were produced at the beginning of the pandemic were the worst case and were ignored for too long in the quest for herd immunity. A proper test and trace system along with sensible, early lockdowns would have significantly reduced the number of excess deaths, as seen in other countries. Many people died at a younger age than they would have purely because the government mismanaged the crisis. Yes, they deserve credit for the vaccination programme but any sensible analysis of their handling of all of this has to conclude that they got loads badly wrong (and that’s not to say anyone else would have done better, we have no way of knowing).0 -
Move along now chaps....
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Already past it. No chance of agreement, possibility that I misunderstood the point being made, not a hill worth dying on.First.Aspect said:
Move along now chaps....0 -
Maybe women like taking risks to get laid but not have babies more than they want to take risk in reducing their chance of getting covid. There is no logic behind most peoples assessment of risk.orraloon said:Latest issue of the More or Less: Behind the Stats podcast looks at vaccine (assumed) cases of blot clots vs contraceptive pill associated blood clots. Latter has much, orders of magnitude higher incidence but hey that's ok, no big deal, just life innit.
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Yes, yes, that's exactly what Tim Harford said.john80 said:
Maybe women like taking risks to get laid but not have babies more than they want to take risk in reducing their chance of getting covid. There is no logic behind most peoples assessment of risk.orraloon said:Latest issue of the More or Less: Behind the Stats podcast looks at vaccine (assumed) cases of blot clots vs contraceptive pill associated blood clots. Latter has much, orders of magnitude higher incidence but hey that's ok, no big deal, just life innit.
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