Giro 2020 - Stage 21: Cernusco sul Naviglio – Milano 15.7 km ITT *spoilers*

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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,158
    edited October 2020
    m.r.m. said:



    I don't think the new Ineos panache exists. I think they go for the stages when their GC ambition has failed. The success at stage hunting comes down to the quality of their riders compared to others allowed by the peloton to escape for stages.


    Exactly. At the Tour people were praising Sunweb for their panache and getting breaks and winning. They knocked on the head as soon as they got a sniff of the leader's jersey in Italy. Ineos essentially won the Giro by mistake.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    It seems that other teams once they get a sniff of the GC they try to become Ineos and fail. However when Ineos try to be Sunweb or AE they still win.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,333
    Sunweb's InsideOut - 20 min inside footage from stages 18, 20 and 21.

    It gives a couple of clues as to their decisions re Kelderman. Firstly, they were convinced Dennis wouldn't last much longer on the Stelvio, a serious underestimation. (I still think they made the right call, but let's not rehash that one)

    Secondly, lots of the DS dialogue feels distinctly uninspiring (particularly the Aussie, who is he?), and the team don't look particularly enthused or confident. Wilco calls in that he can't follow, instead of replying they get on the radio to Hindley. None of it looks like a team that's convinced it can win the race. They look mentally beaten, even before the Stelvio - though they might just be too exhausted.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHTgOFJxecg
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  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,114
    That bit at around 13 minutes when Kelderman rides away on his own. Oofft.
  • notquite6foot
    notquite6foot Posts: 248
    edited October 2020
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    Secondly, lots of the DS dialogue feels distinctly uninspiring (particularly the Aussie, who is he?)

    Luke Roberts. He won the Olympic team pursuit in 2004 among other things, and was also the guy Wiggo beat to win his first senior rainbows (individual pursuit, 2003).
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,333
    andyp said:

    That bit at around 13 minutes when Kelderman rides away on his own. Oofft.

    Yeah, that was a tough watch.
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  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,873
    RichN95. said:

    m.r.m. said:



    I don't think the new Ineos panache exists. I think they go for the stages when their GC ambition has failed. The success at stage hunting comes down to the quality of their riders compared to others allowed by the peloton to escape for stages.


    Exactly. At the Tour people were praising Sunweb for their panache and getting breaks and winning. They knocked on the head as soon as they got a sniff of the leader's jersey in Italy. Ineos essentially won the Giro by mistake.
    Tao just kept himself in contention on GC and it worked out
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,158
    The odd thing about it was despite him being on screen for the last three weeks and him having success in the past, I didn't really know what Kelderman looks like
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,091
    That Sunweb video was curiously underwhelming in a lot of ways. All the passion of a school assembly presented by six year-olds in the "motivational" bits. Hopefully there's some more juicy stuff that wasn't fit for broadcast...

    Worst bit was the advice to HIndley before the TT. Not "You're right in this, you had the legs on him the other day, we're going to talk you through every corner and make sure you're better prepared than he is," but "I suppose Tao might fall off? Or get abducted by aliens? Look, just ride around and enjoy wearing pink, okay? Now, how much do you want us to BS you when you're losing time?"
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,091
    Also unconvinced it's a great idea to put out a team video that shows you directly lying to a rider about how things are going. For no real purpose they've just squandered a little bit of trust, and even if Kelderman is leaving it seems like a stupid idea to have done that.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,806
    Not convinced about the rebirth of Sky/Ineos/Grenadiers.
    They have reverted to type with the leaders jersey.
    If they want to be more race flamboyant then they need someone in the breaks.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,873
    The sunweb ds style was (I think by design ) very stress reduction but uninspiring ...they came 2nd and 3rd not completely lacking in skill.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,114
    pblakeney said:

    Not convinced about the rebirth of Sky/Ineos/Grenadiers.
    They have reverted to type with the leaders jersey.
    If they want to be more race flamboyant then they need someone in the breaks.

    Did we watch the same race? Ganna and Narvaez won from breaks, and Puccio and Swift came close to doing so too.

    On the Stelvio stage, Ganna and Swift were both in the break, with the goal of being ahead of the GC contenders over the top to help consolidate the lead over the other GC riders. Sunweb scuppered that by putting the pressure on from the foot of the climb in their successful attempt to drop Almeida.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 6,936
    andyp, I think pblakeney is refrring to the way Ineos rode in St 7 of the Vuelta yesterday.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,806
    andyp said:

    pblakeney said:

    Not convinced about the rebirth of Sky/Ineos/Grenadiers.
    They have reverted to type with the leaders jersey.
    If they want to be more race flamboyant then they need someone in the breaks.

    Did we watch the same race? Ganna and Narvaez won from breaks, and Puccio and Swift came close to doing so too.

    On the Stelvio stage, Ganna and Swift were both in the break, with the goal of being ahead of the GC contenders over the top to help consolidate the lead over the other GC riders. Sunweb scuppered that by putting the pressure on from the foot of the climb in their successful attempt to drop Almeida.
    Apologies. I missed an important bit out.
    After watching the Vuelta I'm not convinced....
    So no, not the same race. 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 6,936
    On the Sunweb car driving away from Kelderman, hadn't Hindley called for the team car at that point and it was behind Kelderman, and so had to pass him to service Hindley. The second team car was way back with the peloton.
    I don't know if they then did or didn't drop back again to behind Kelderman.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,091
    Dorset_Boy said:

    On the Sunweb car driving away from Kelderman, hadn't Hindley called for the team car at that point and it was behind Kelderman, and so had to pass him to service Hindley. The second team car was way back with the peloton.
    I don't know if they then did or didn't drop back again to behind Kelderman.

    They do - they pulled in and waited. It's how they get a time check on him.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 21,818
    pblakeney said:

    andyp said:

    pblakeney said:

    Not convinced about the rebirth of Sky/Ineos/Grenadiers.
    They have reverted to type with the leaders jersey.
    If they want to be more race flamboyant then they need someone in the breaks.

    Did we watch the same race? Ganna and Narvaez won from breaks, and Puccio and Swift came close to doing so too.

    On the Stelvio stage, Ganna and Swift were both in the break, with the goal of being ahead of the GC contenders over the top to help consolidate the lead over the other GC riders. Sunweb scuppered that by putting the pressure on from the foot of the climb in their successful attempt to drop Almeida.
    Apologies. I missed an important bit out.
    After watching the Vuelta I'm not convinced....
    So no, not the same race. 😉
    That would have to be yesterday's stage then, since it's the only day Carapaz been in red: the one that had Dylan van Baarle in the break.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,806
    blazing_saddles said:

    pblakeney said:

    andyp said:

    pblakeney said:

    Not convinced about the rebirth of Sky/Ineos/Grenadiers.
    They have reverted to type with the leaders jersey.
    If they want to be more race flamboyant then they need someone in the breaks.

    Did we watch the same race? Ganna and Narvaez won from breaks, and Puccio and Swift came close to doing so too.

    On the Stelvio stage, Ganna and Swift were both in the break, with the goal of being ahead of the GC contenders over the top to help consolidate the lead over the other GC riders. Sunweb scuppered that by putting the pressure on from the foot of the climb in their successful attempt to drop Almeida.
    Apologies. I missed an important bit out.
    After watching the Vuelta I'm not convinced....
    So no, not the same race. 😉
    That would have to be yesterday's stage then, since it's the only day Carapaz been in red: the one that had Dylan van Baarle in the break.
    I must have tuned in too late, or he was hiding. I never saw him. :(
    Too big a break to force other teams to chase. Still not convinced.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,333
    Still thinking about that Sunweb video. I've realised that what's most interesting about it is what it doesn't show.

    There are only one or two scenes where the team are shown gathered - morning briefings on the bus. Over the three stages shown they
    1) won a stage
    2) put a rider in pink
    3) put a second rider in pink

    Where are the standard team-dinner videos? Everyone else does them for a stage win, for instance. Was it that bad (atmosphere?) that they couldn't show them? There's almost nothing showing team bonding of any type in the twenty minutes.
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  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,100
    andyp said:

    pblakeney said:

    Not convinced about the rebirth of Sky/Ineos/Grenadiers.
    They have reverted to type with the leaders jersey.
    If they want to be more race flamboyant then they need someone in the breaks.

    Did we watch the same race? Ganna and Narvaez won from breaks, and Puccio and Swift came close to doing so too.

    On the Stelvio stage, Ganna and Swift were both in the break, with the goal of being ahead of the GC contenders over the top to help consolidate the lead over the other GC riders. Sunweb scuppered that by putting the pressure on from the foot of the climb in their successful attempt to drop Almeida.
    I got the impression from Swift's comments post-TT that Ganna and Swift were in the break that day hoping for a stage win rather than due to any notion of supporting TGH.
    Team My Man 2022:

    Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,100
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    Still thinking about that Sunweb video. I've realised that what's most interesting about it is what it doesn't show.

    There are only one or two scenes where the team are shown gathered - morning briefings on the bus. Over the three stages shown they
    1) won a stage
    2) put a rider in pink
    3) put a second rider in pink

    Where are the standard team-dinner videos? Everyone else does them for a stage win, for instance. Was it that bad (atmosphere?) that they couldn't show them? There's almost nothing showing team bonding of any type in the twenty minutes.

    I haven't had a chance to take a look. Was Matt Winston one of the DSs?
    Team My Man 2022:

    Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet
  • davidof
    davidof Posts: 3,042
    andyp said:

    That bit at around 13 minutes when Kelderman rides away on his own. Oofft.

    The one where he flips the bird to the team car "yeah censored you too guys, see you next season"

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  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,392
    Well if you want to get the Team Ineos look, Sport Pursuit have some Belstaff going..."cheap"
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,649
    There's a song playing on the Sunweb bus halfway through (9:20 to be precise)

    I've shazamed it and found it's called Liquido by a band called Narcotic, but I'm trying to worn out where I've heard it recently.

    Is it a kind of official Giro song (like Sex on Fire is) or is it popular in Italy at the moment? It's driving me insane trying to work out where I've heard it
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,806
    1999.
    Possibly during any Euro holiday since then.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,392
    edited October 2020
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ7E40Ec5ec&ab_channel=Liquido

    Can't say I don't think it's a bit of a banger...

    Somehow takes me back to mid-teenage family holidays in the back of a Volvo 240 filled to the brim with crap around the alps.

    “Narcotic” is the official anthem of the Girondins de Bordeaux football club.
    http://tv90s.com/liquido-narcotic/
    ???
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,158
    No_Ta_Doctor said:


    Where are the standard team-dinner videos? Everyone else does them for a stage win, for instance. Was it that bad (atmosphere?) that they couldn't show them? There's almost nothing showing team bonding of any type in the twenty minutes.

    Social distancing, isn't it. They are supposed to eat two metres away from each other and wear masks all the time. I doubt they actually did, but you don't film it do you.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,196
    pblakeney said:

    andyp said:

    pblakeney said:

    Not convinced about the rebirth of Sky/Ineos/Grenadiers.
    They have reverted to type with the leaders jersey.
    If they want to be more race flamboyant then they need someone in the breaks.

    Did we watch the same race? Ganna and Narvaez won from breaks, and Puccio and Swift came close to doing so too.

    On the Stelvio stage, Ganna and Swift were both in the break, with the goal of being ahead of the GC contenders over the top to help consolidate the lead over the other GC riders. Sunweb scuppered that by putting the pressure on from the foot of the climb in their successful attempt to drop Almeida.
    Apologies. I missed an important bit out.
    After watching the Vuelta I'm not convinced....
    So no, not the same race. 😉
    They just ride in the way they think is going to give them the best result don't they... All teams try to defend the jersey when they have it, if they have the manpower - for most of the Giro they didn't. What else are you expecting?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,806
    bobmcstuff said:

    pblakeney said:

    andyp said:

    pblakeney said:

    Not convinced about the rebirth of Sky/Ineos/Grenadiers.
    They have reverted to type with the leaders jersey.
    If they want to be more race flamboyant then they need someone in the breaks.

    Did we watch the same race? Ganna and Narvaez won from breaks, and Puccio and Swift came close to doing so too.

    On the Stelvio stage, Ganna and Swift were both in the break, with the goal of being ahead of the GC contenders over the top to help consolidate the lead over the other GC riders. Sunweb scuppered that by putting the pressure on from the foot of the climb in their successful attempt to drop Almeida.
    Apologies. I missed an important bit out.
    After watching the Vuelta I'm not convinced....
    So no, not the same race. 😉
    They just ride in the way they think is going to give them the best result don't they... All teams try to defend the jersey when they have it, if they have the manpower - for most of the Giro they didn't. What else are you expecting?
    What was I expecting? What we've got.
    Upthread was suggested we have a new Ineos with new tactics. We don't.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.

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