Giro 2020 - Stage 7: Matera – Brindisi 143 km *Spoilers*

124

Comments

  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    specialgueststar said:

    RichN95. said:

    specialgueststar said:

    RichN95. said:

    Pinot's 29th place at the Tour looks ever more costly for Groupama

    Haha. Better than Thomas's dnf from a neutral zone 😁😁😁

    So do you genuinely think leaving the best sprinter this year at home for the Tour in the French Champion's jersey was worth it for fully backing a rider who once got on the podium and had since got two GT top tens in eight attempts and five DNFs

    The sooner French cycling realises at Pinot is not a great talent denied, but is actually a poor man's Rafa Majka the better. It should instead embrace Demare's genuine A-list talent.
    The championship was the weekend before the Tour. IE post selection Pinot beat Pogacar at the Dauphine and was fourth at Occitaine Pinot had Gaudu Mollard and Reichembach Pinot crashed on stage 1 and damaged his lower back. Pinot finished the tour -keep up. Have you ever thought of being a DS?


    I know that if I wouldn't want to go into the biggest race of the year with a team entirely focussed on a rider who has a 50% completion rate and not a single WT stage race win to his name when I've got a proven winner sprinter on my books.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,447
    I see the armchair DS union is out in force. I think Madiot knows that taking Pinot and a team based solely on his success to the Tour was a gamble, and I believe he said as much before the race. But he did it because last year Pinot looked like the strongest rider in the race up until the penultimate mountain stage.

    Demare is a really good rider, but his record against the top tier sprinters like Ewan and Bennett isn't great, so there was no guarantee he'd win stages at the Tour.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,701
    andyp said:

    I see the armchair DS union is out in force. I think Madiot knows that taking Pinot and a team based solely on his success to the Tour was a gamble, and I believe he said as much before the race. But he did it because last year Pinot looked like the strongest rider in the race up until the penultimate mountain stage.

    Demare is a really good rider, but his record against the top tier sprinters like Ewan and Bennett isn't great, so there was no guarantee he'd win stages at the Tour.

    This post must make you a fully paid up member of the armchair DS union too.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,235
    andyp said:

    I see the armchair DS union is out in force. I think Madiot knows that taking Pinot and a team based solely on his success to the Tour was a gamble, and I believe he said as much before the race. But he did it because last year Pinot looked like the strongest rider in the race up until the penultimate mountain stage.

    Demare is a really good rider, but his record against the top tier sprinters like Ewan and Bennett isn't great, so there was no guarantee he'd win stages at the Tour.

    This.

    Plus, Demare's success has been substantially as a result of having an entire team dedicated to him. That was never a possibility at the Tour.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,148
    Yates out with Covid. I guess that explains his form.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,148
    andyp said:

    I see the armchair DS union is out in force. I think Madiot knows that taking Pinot and a team based solely on his success to the Tour was a gamble, and I believe he said as much before the race. But he did it because last year Pinot looked like the strongest rider in the race up until the penultimate mountain stage.

    Demare is a really good rider, but his record against the top tier sprinters like Ewan and Bennett isn't great, so there was no guarantee he'd win stages at the Tour.

    I agree with the second part of this. Demare has never shown himself capable of regular wins among top flight sprinters. His wins this season, and at the Giro in particular, suggest the lack of in form sprinters. In the absence of Groenewegen there's really only Ewan and Bennett at the top tier and they were both at the Tour.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,701
    Demare has won a stage in every GT he has ridden in the past 4 years.

    And if we are looking at inconsistency, Pinot only broke a 50% completion rate by limping around this last Tour:



    The bottom line is that both riders require an entire team in support and neither merit it.
    So, Madiot didn't so much as gamble as play a Hail Mary on Pinot and it comes as no surprise that he lost.

    Although I don't blame him for giving it a shot.

    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,969
    blazing_saddles said:

    Demare has won a stage in every GT he has ridden in the past 4 years.

    And if we are looking at inconsistency, Pinot only broke a 50% completion rate by limping around this last Tour:



    The bottom line is that both riders require an entire team in support and neither merit it.
    So, Madiot didn't so much as gamble as play a Hail Mary on Pinot and it comes as no surprise that he lost.

    Although I don't blame him for giving it a shot.

    I'd say your first sentence argues with the last sentence.
    Demare had more chance of winning stages than Pinot on the podium in the Tour.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,148
    Have to admit I hadn't realised quite how poor Pinot's Tour record is. To think SGS was sneering at Thomas who has a first and second to his name despite never being the sole leader and has one DNF in 10 attempts.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,701
    Pross said:

    Have to admit I hadn't realised quite how poor Pinot's Tour record is. To think SGS was sneering at Thomas who has a first and second to his name despite never being the sole leader and has one DNF in 10 attempts.

    Plus he rode a better Tour in 2013 with a fractured pelvis, than Pinot did this year with a sore back.
    SGS's love for flaky French failures is rather amusing though.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,235
    blazing_saddles said:

    Demare has won a stage in every GT he has ridden in the past 4 years.

    He had a dedicated team in the last three and all but in 2017 where Pinot was allowed a free role.
    blazing_saddles said:


    And if we are looking at inconsistency, Pinot only broke a 50% completion rate by limping around this last Tour:



    The bottom line is that both riders require an entire team in support and neither merit it.

    It is unsurprising that you see it that way with your attitude to the French. Needless to say I would suggest they both merited a full team behind them. In any event, it doesn't work these days having multiple leaders with different ambitions in a Grand Tour. Has anyone successfully managed it since Sky in 2012? Even they knocked it on the head a year later. If Madiot had selected both Pinot and Demare he would have been lambasted for splitting the resources and neither would have achieved anything. It is idiotic to suggest that both should have ridden the Tour.
    blazing_saddles said:


    So, Madiot didn't so much as gamble as play a Hail Mary on Pinot and it comes as no surprise that he lost.

    Although I don't blame him for giving it a shot.

    Once you accept that it was either Demare and no Pinot at the Tour or Pinot and no Demare, the choice was a simple one. He had to weigh up a long shot at a pink jersey plus a possible stage win in the Tour against a long shot at a yellow jersey plus probable multiple stage wins at the Giro. I'd have made the same call that Madiot made.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    DeadCalm said:

    <

    It is unsurprising that you see it that way with your attitude to the French. Needless to say I would suggest they both merited a full team behind them. In any event, it doesn't work these days having multiple leaders with different ambitions in a Grand Tour. Has anyone successfully managed it since Sky in 2012?

    .

    No team has won a Grand Tour and had a sprinter win a stage since UAE a few weeks ago.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,148
    I actually think the dedicated team for most GC riders is over-rated. Ideally you'll have someone who can stay with you in case of issues on the big mountain stages but other than that it is mainly on the flat where the support is useful in the event of crashes, mechanicals and splits where the same riders can do it for a sprinter or GC rider.

    The exception is if you have a favourite and want to set the tone of the race in the manner of Sky / Ineos or Jumbo but we saw this year that it doesn't always equal success. A GC rider, two mountain domestiques, a sprinter, lead out man and three rouleurs should work for most teams. It obviously helps if you have a Van Aert type rider who can cover 7 of those spots though!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Bear in mind Groupama picked Stefan Kung who pre-planned to leave early.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dish_dash
    dish_dash Posts: 5,642
    ocdupalais said:

    Gaviria's looking second rate. What gives?

    Didn't he have COVID at the start of the year?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,969
    dish_dash said:

    ocdupalais said:

    Gaviria's looking second rate. What gives?

    Didn't he have COVID at the start of the year?
    Long term effects?
    I was just saying to my wife about Yates that if he has it bad then it could be the end of his career. That and contagion is what makes it a bigger story.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,701
    DeadCalm said:



    It is unsurprising that you see it that way with your attitude to the French.

    Not sure how my attitude to the french as you put it, factors into a debate about the relative merits of two diverse french riders.
    I was actually defending Demare from criticism, while at the same time agreeing that on balance, Madiot made the correct call.
    My attitude to the french didn't make those stats up, either.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • specialgueststar
    specialgueststar Posts: 3,418
    ddraver said:

    I know enough about DS-ing to know that someone who can't podium at the Route d'Occitane ain't gonna trouble the top step of The Tour....

    Whoops. Porte was sixth at Occitaine. A lot of big hitters there How's the day job going 😁😁
  • specialgueststar
    specialgueststar Posts: 3,418
    I don't know why you bother you make it too easy ;)

    Occitaine

    1 BERNAL Egan Team INEOS 125 100 17:57:27
    2 SIVAKOV Pavel Team INEOS 85 70 0:19
    3 VLASOV Aleksandr Astana Pro Team 70 50 0:23
    4 PINOT Thibaut Groupama - FDJ 60 36 0:37
    5 MOLLEMA Bauke
    6 PORTE Richie
    7 BARGUIL Warren Team 9
    8 BARDET Romain

    Dauphine


    1 MARTÍNEZ Daniel Felipe EF Pro Cycling
    2 PINOT Thibaut Groupama - FDJ
    3 MARTIN Guillaume Cofidis, Solutions Crédits
    4 POGAČAR Tadej UAE-Team Emirates

    Tour stage 1

    141 KÜNG Stefan Groupama - FDJ ,,
    142 LADAGNOUS Matthieu Groupama - FDJ ,,
    143 MOLARD Rudy Groupama - FDJ ,,
    144 PINOT Thibaut Groupama - FDJ
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,387
    specialgueststar said:

    I don't know why you bother you make it too easy ;)

    Occitaine

    1 BERNAL Egan Team INEOS 125 100 17:57:27
    2 SIVAKOV Pavel Team INEOS 85 70 0:19
    3 VLASOV Aleksandr Astana Pro Team 70 50 0:23
    4 PINOT Thibaut Groupama - FDJ 60 36 0:37
    5 MOLLEMA Bauke
    6 PORTE Richie
    7 BARGUIL Warren Team 9
    8 BARDET Romain

    Dauphine


    1 MARTÍNEZ Daniel Felipe EF Pro Cycling
    2 PINOT Thibaut Groupama - FDJ
    3 MARTIN Guillaume Cofidis, Solutions Crédits
    4 POGAČAR Tadej UAE-Team Emirates

    Tour stage 1

    141 KÜNG Stefan Groupama - FDJ ,,
    142 LADAGNOUS Matthieu Groupama - FDJ ,,
    143 MOLARD Rudy Groupama - FDJ ,,
    144 PINOT Thibaut Groupama - FDJ

    But at the Dauphine Pinot was pretty much handed the race on a plate when Roglic pulled out, except old flakey once again crumbled under the pressure of expactation.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,235
    blazing_saddles said:

    DeadCalm said:



    It is unsurprising that you see it that way with your attitude to the French.

    Not sure how my attitude to the french as you put it, factors into a debate about the relative merits of two diverse french riders.
    I was actually defending Demare from criticism, while at the same time agreeing that on balance, Madiot made the correct call.
    My attitude to the french didn't make those stats up, either.
    Your attitude to the French (and let's face it anyone who isn't Welsh) led you to suggest that both riders (one of whom was looking like a likely winner of the previous Tour until injured and the other is a serial Grand Tour stage winner) require an entire team in support (no quibble with that bit) "and neither merit it".
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,235
    Dorset_Boy said:

    specialgueststar said:

    I don't know why you bother you make it too easy ;)

    Occitaine

    1 BERNAL Egan Team INEOS 125 100 17:57:27
    2 SIVAKOV Pavel Team INEOS 85 70 0:19
    3 VLASOV Aleksandr Astana Pro Team 70 50 0:23
    4 PINOT Thibaut Groupama - FDJ 60 36 0:37
    5 MOLLEMA Bauke
    6 PORTE Richie
    7 BARGUIL Warren Team 9
    8 BARDET Romain

    Dauphine


    1 MARTÍNEZ Daniel Felipe EF Pro Cycling
    2 PINOT Thibaut Groupama - FDJ
    3 MARTIN Guillaume Cofidis, Solutions Crédits
    4 POGAČAR Tadej UAE-Team Emirates

    Tour stage 1

    141 KÜNG Stefan Groupama - FDJ ,,
    142 LADAGNOUS Matthieu Groupama - FDJ ,,
    143 MOLARD Rudy Groupama - FDJ ,,
    144 PINOT Thibaut Groupama - FDJ

    But at the Dauphine Pinot was pretty much handed the race on a plate when Roglic pulled out, except old flakey once again crumbled under the pressure of expactation.
    But he was right up there with the best of the best. We're not talking about what actually happened but whether Madiot made the right call not to disrupt the FDJ squad at the last minute based on the information he had at the time. Obviously, he'd have wished things had been better for Pinot at the Tour, but I'm pretty sure that, even with the benefit of hindsight, he'd make the same call again.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,235
    RichN95. said:

    DeadCalm said:

    <

    It is unsurprising that you see it that way with your attitude to the French. Needless to say I would suggest they both merited a full team behind them. In any event, it doesn't work these days having multiple leaders with different ambitions in a Grand Tour. Has anyone successfully managed it since Sky in 2012?

    .

    No team has won a Grand Tour and had a sprinter win a stage since UAE a few weeks ago.
    They didn't split the resources though. Kristoff made it clear that he was on his own in the sprints and was no doubt expected to help Pogacar out if he could. Given the paucity of the support available, UAE picked just about the strongest squad they could in support of Pogacar. Do you expect them to be sending a "sprinter" (in quotes because Kristoff is on the rouleur end of the definition) to the Tour next year?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    DeadCalm said:


    (one of whom was looking like a likely winner of the previous Tour until injured and the other is a serial Grand Tour stage winner)

    He was in 5th place before he dropped out
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,701
    DeadCalm said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    DeadCalm said:



    It is unsurprising that you see it that way with your attitude to the French.

    Not sure how my attitude to the french as you put it, factors into a debate about the relative merits of two diverse french riders.
    I was actually defending Demare from criticism, while at the same time agreeing that on balance, Madiot made the correct call.
    My attitude to the french didn't make those stats up, either.
    Your attitude to the French (and let's face it anyone who isn't Welsh) led you to suggest that both riders (one of whom was looking like a likely winner of the previous Tour until injured and the other is a serial Grand Tour stage winner) require an entire team in support (no quibble with that bit) and neither merit it.
    As you have now reverted to type with your personal attacks, I see no point in discussing this further with you.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,235
    RichN95. said:

    DeadCalm said:


    (one of whom was looking like a likely winner of the previous Tour until injured and the other is a serial Grand Tour stage winner)

    He was in 5th place before he dropped out
    He was 20 seconds behind the ultimate winner having been over a minute and a quarter behind him 8 stages earlier.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,235
    blazing_saddles said:

    DeadCalm said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    DeadCalm said:



    It is unsurprising that you see it that way with your attitude to the French.

    Not sure how my attitude to the french as you put it, factors into a debate about the relative merits of two diverse french riders.
    I was actually defending Demare from criticism, while at the same time agreeing that on balance, Madiot made the correct call.
    My attitude to the french didn't make those stats up, either.
    Your attitude to the French (and let's face it anyone who isn't Welsh) led you to suggest that both riders (one of whom was looking like a likely winner of the previous Tour until injured and the other is a serial Grand Tour stage winner) require an entire team in support (no quibble with that bit) and neither merit it.
    As you have now reverted to type with your personal attacks, I see no point in discussing this further with you.
    Just telling it as I see it. Show me a post in the recent past that disproves my accusation and I will apologise wholeheartedly.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,660
    Jesus, what has become of us.

    Perhaps there is too much cycling on...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,387
    I never thought for a moment Pinot was going to win the Tour last year. As soon as he would have been in real contention, either he would have crumbled mentally, or, as happened, some misfortune would befall him.

    How many GT winners have never won a World tour level stage race?
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,447
    He was in real contention until stage 19, just 20 seconds behind the eventual winner, having dropped him for 18 seconds just days previously.

    The shock at his abandon the next day was palpable, because many observers thought he was looking the strongest climber in the race up until that point.

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