Unpopular Opinions
Comments
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So I’m offering up macro reasons to put your individualist reasons into perspective.First.Aspect said:
Well what I do isn't anything to do with old rope, RC, and for at least 5 years after spending about 5 years qualifying, sheer volume of experience absolutely matters.rick_chasey said:
Taking time off to look after kids is normal and necessary.pblakeney said:
To disagree is fine, but why?rick_chasey said:
It reads rather differently on a CV so I disagree.pblakeney said:From a career perspective there is no difference between taking 5 years off to raise a child and 5 years sabbatical to travel the world.
There is a difference in society terms, but not an individual's career.
I guess one of our opinions is unpopular. 😉
Taking 5 years off to sun yourself isn’t and gives off lazy and not-career-minded vibes, rightly or wrongly.
I just want to challenge your presumption that somehow breeding is the most laudable thing one can ever do and society should prostrate itself to the endeavour. Isn't having children the ultimate selfish act? It's very bad for the environment for starters. And who is it for, primarily? Pretty sure you didn't have kids so that they would be able to look after childless old people, did you? If so, thank you so much and I take it all back.
I've never had a problem with equal pay for equal experience, but I struggle with coarse and misleading gender pay gap comparisons.
Take a look at some of the problems depopulation causes.
That and I believe the advantages of a diverse workforce (which includes a decent mixture of genders) outweigh the cost of taking someone on who has been out on parental leave.
You could of course even it out by forcing men to take as much time off to rear children as women tend to, but I suspect that’s not the type of equality you’re after.
There’s also an argument about better brought up kids make for better future citizens but I’ve not managed to have that debate without people getting upset.0 -
Those employers who think it bad to take time out to do alternative things are clearly employers who never had the balls to do something themselves.
Rick, you have previously talked about the benefits of a well diversified workforce. Surely having the experience of working and travelling in different environments should add to that mix?
I learnt far more about handling problems, dealing with people from a wide range of backgrounds etc by spending 5 winters working in the Alps in my late 20s than I ever would have done by continuing to work as a professional in London.3 -
Sure.Dorset_Boy said:Those employers who think it bad to take time out to do alternative things are clearly employers who never had the balls to do something themselves.
Rick, you have previously talked about the benefits of a well diversified workforce. Surely having the experience of working and travelling in different environments should add to that mix?
I learnt far more about handling problems, dealing with people from a wide range of backgrounds etc by spending 5 winters working in the Alps in my late 20s than I ever would have done by continuing to work as a professional in London.
Then again I’ve not met anyone save for DDRaver and maybe BigBean who does the whole “travelling in their 20s” who isn’t some hooray Henry of a very particular strata of society ie poshos and in those instances the experience is not “diverse”, so you need to be a bit careful.0 -
Just goes to prove that it boils down to personal opinions.
And they are unpopular with those of a different opinion.
I'd hire someone who has travelled over someone taking extended child leave.
Why? Diversified experience.
Similarly, someone who has worked for a few companies over a "lifer".The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.2 -
Take a look at what problems over population causes.rick_chasey said:
So I’m offering up macro reasons to put your individualist reasons into perspective.First.Aspect said:
Well what I do isn't anything to do with old rope, RC, and for at least 5 years after spending about 5 years qualifying, sheer volume of experience absolutely matters.rick_chasey said:
Taking time off to look after kids is normal and necessary.pblakeney said:
To disagree is fine, but why?rick_chasey said:
It reads rather differently on a CV so I disagree.pblakeney said:From a career perspective there is no difference between taking 5 years off to raise a child and 5 years sabbatical to travel the world.
There is a difference in society terms, but not an individual's career.
I guess one of our opinions is unpopular. 😉
Taking 5 years off to sun yourself isn’t and gives off lazy and not-career-minded vibes, rightly or wrongly.
I just want to challenge your presumption that somehow breeding is the most laudable thing one can ever do and society should prostrate itself to the endeavour. Isn't having children the ultimate selfish act? It's very bad for the environment for starters. And who is it for, primarily? Pretty sure you didn't have kids so that they would be able to look after childless old people, did you? If so, thank you so much and I take it all back.
I've never had a problem with equal pay for equal experience, but I struggle with coarse and misleading gender pay gap comparisons.
Take a look at some of the problems depopulation causes.
That and I believe the advantages of a diverse workforce (which includes a decent mixture of genders) outweigh the cost of taking someone on who has been out on parental leave.
You could of course even it out by forcing men to take as much time off to rear children as women tend to, but I suspect that’s not the type of equality you’re after.
There’s also an argument about better brought up kids make for better future citizens but I’ve not managed to have that debate without people getting upset.
I'm not going into why I don't have kids, but it is not a selfish act.
Careers take different trajectories. Past a certain point it makes no difference, but there are issues in pretending that it makes no difference before then. It is a form of positive discrimination. That's a step beyond facilitation.
Men and women taking equal time out of work for childcare makes perfect sense to me. This is what seems to happen in a lot of households now, didn't you know? Interesting use of the word "force" though. "Allow" might be better.
You are being preposterous if you are arguing that you personally had children for any reasons other than for yourself.0 -
I'm only a maybe! I'm offended now.rick_chasey said:
Sure.Dorset_Boy said:Those employers who think it bad to take time out to do alternative things are clearly employers who never had the balls to do something themselves.
Rick, you have previously talked about the benefits of a well diversified workforce. Surely having the experience of working and travelling in different environments should add to that mix?
I learnt far more about handling problems, dealing with people from a wide range of backgrounds etc by spending 5 winters working in the Alps in my late 20s than I ever would have done by continuing to work as a professional in London.
Then again I’ve not met anyone save for DDRaver and maybe BigBean who does the whole “travelling in their 20s” who isn’t some hooray Henry of a very particular strata of society ie poshos and in those instances the experience is not “diverse”, so you need to be a bit careful.0 -
😱😱😱😱😱😱
(Like everything there are Jobs in ski resorts and jobs in ski resorts...)
The reality is that this is not a circle you can square.
We need women to have children to continue the human race.
It therefore isn't fair to say that women should therefore choose between a career and a child
However it is also not really fair for someone who has had a year out to 'advance' in their career having not actually done anything related to that in that year
The reality is that both sides need to not take the p1ss!
The unfortunate reality is that there are people on both sides who will...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Ah makes sense.First.Aspect said:
Take a look at what problems over population causes.rick_chasey said:
So I’m offering up macro reasons to put your individualist reasons into perspective.First.Aspect said:
Well what I do isn't anything to do with old rope, RC, and for at least 5 years after spending about 5 years qualifying, sheer volume of experience absolutely matters.rick_chasey said:
Taking time off to look after kids is normal and necessary.pblakeney said:
To disagree is fine, but why?rick_chasey said:
It reads rather differently on a CV so I disagree.pblakeney said:From a career perspective there is no difference between taking 5 years off to raise a child and 5 years sabbatical to travel the world.
There is a difference in society terms, but not an individual's career.
I guess one of our opinions is unpopular. 😉
Taking 5 years off to sun yourself isn’t and gives off lazy and not-career-minded vibes, rightly or wrongly.
I just want to challenge your presumption that somehow breeding is the most laudable thing one can ever do and society should prostrate itself to the endeavour. Isn't having children the ultimate selfish act? It's very bad for the environment for starters. And who is it for, primarily? Pretty sure you didn't have kids so that they would be able to look after childless old people, did you? If so, thank you so much and I take it all back.
I've never had a problem with equal pay for equal experience, but I struggle with coarse and misleading gender pay gap comparisons.
Take a look at some of the problems depopulation causes.
That and I believe the advantages of a diverse workforce (which includes a decent mixture of genders) outweigh the cost of taking someone on who has been out on parental leave.
You could of course even it out by forcing men to take as much time off to rear children as women tend to, but I suspect that’s not the type of equality you’re after.
There’s also an argument about better brought up kids make for better future citizens but I’ve not managed to have that debate without people getting upset.
I'm not going into why I don't have kids, but it is not a selfish act.
Careers take different trajectories. Past a certain point it makes no difference, but there are issues in pretending that it makes no difference before then. It is a form of positive discrimination. That's a step beyond facilitation.
Men and women taking equal time out of work for childcare makes perfect sense to me. This is what seems to happen in a lot of households now, didn't you know? Interesting use of the word "force" though. "Allow" might be better.
You are being preposterous if you are arguing that you personally had children for any reasons other than for yourself.
When you are a parent it doesn’t feel very selfish..!
You stop putting yourself first and have to put your child first.
Anyway that’s not the argument nor the point.
Maybe it’s a philosophical one but I think on a societal level it’s important not to reduce employment opportunities because people chose to bring up children.
And I sort of feel your original point works if you just focus on the individual role (why take on someone who’s been out of the market for a while, regardless of why) but it doesn’t on a broader level because it puts parents (usually mothers) at a disadvantage.
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I kind of take the view that being a parent, for that parent, is the reward.rick_chasey said:
Ah makes sense.First.Aspect said:
Take a look at what problems over population causes.rick_chasey said:
So I’m offering up macro reasons to put your individualist reasons into perspective.First.Aspect said:
Well what I do isn't anything to do with old rope, RC, and for at least 5 years after spending about 5 years qualifying, sheer volume of experience absolutely matters.rick_chasey said:
Taking time off to look after kids is normal and necessary.pblakeney said:
To disagree is fine, but why?rick_chasey said:
It reads rather differently on a CV so I disagree.pblakeney said:From a career perspective there is no difference between taking 5 years off to raise a child and 5 years sabbatical to travel the world.
There is a difference in society terms, but not an individual's career.
I guess one of our opinions is unpopular. 😉
Taking 5 years off to sun yourself isn’t and gives off lazy and not-career-minded vibes, rightly or wrongly.
I just want to challenge your presumption that somehow breeding is the most laudable thing one can ever do and society should prostrate itself to the endeavour. Isn't having children the ultimate selfish act? It's very bad for the environment for starters. And who is it for, primarily? Pretty sure you didn't have kids so that they would be able to look after childless old people, did you? If so, thank you so much and I take it all back.
I've never had a problem with equal pay for equal experience, but I struggle with coarse and misleading gender pay gap comparisons.
Take a look at some of the problems depopulation causes.
That and I believe the advantages of a diverse workforce (which includes a decent mixture of genders) outweigh the cost of taking someone on who has been out on parental leave.
You could of course even it out by forcing men to take as much time off to rear children as women tend to, but I suspect that’s not the type of equality you’re after.
There’s also an argument about better brought up kids make for better future citizens but I’ve not managed to have that debate without people getting upset.
I'm not going into why I don't have kids, but it is not a selfish act.
Careers take different trajectories. Past a certain point it makes no difference, but there are issues in pretending that it makes no difference before then. It is a form of positive discrimination. That's a step beyond facilitation.
Men and women taking equal time out of work for childcare makes perfect sense to me. This is what seems to happen in a lot of households now, didn't you know? Interesting use of the word "force" though. "Allow" might be better.
You are being preposterous if you are arguing that you personally had children for any reasons other than for yourself.
When you are a parent it doesn’t feel very selfish..!
You stop putting yourself first and have to put your child first.
Anyway that’s not the argument nor the point.
Maybe it’s a philosophical one but I think on a societal level it’s important not to reduce employment opportunities because people chose to bring up children.
And I sort of feel your original point works if you just focus on the individual role (why take on someone who’s been out of the market for a while, regardless of why) but it doesn’t on a broader level because it puts parents (usually mothers) at a disadvantage.
I understand the macro argument, but they aren't anything whatsoever to do with anyone's personal decisions.
Whilst it may not feel selfish at the time, having and bringing up children absolutely is, so completely and immersively that parents like you seem somehow to expect people like me to be grateful for your sacrifice.
I happen to think that there are many, many more people on earth than can really be good, including on our uncomfortably cramped little island. Which is a bit more of a "macro" reason than perpetuating a market economy.1 -
Well sure. It is more challenging to employ people who want to spend some time with their families, but unless we are going to provide universal childcarenickice said:
My dad is a retired GP and he used to complain about female doctors asking to go part-time as it was more complicated to have two part-times rather than one full-timer. I can quite believe a lot of women with young children would want to leave the profession as the hours are much longer than when my dad was younger.surrey_commuter said:
You can not retire before 55 even if you build up the contributions to a level high enough to leave you a decent sum after reduction factors.DeVlaeminck said:ddraver said:
Was earwigging a conversation my Dad was having with his also-retired-colleagues recently when this gem came upblazing_saddles said:rick_chasey said:
So is it that women don't like the job, or is it that the culture is hostile to women?
Both parties have lost out there - someone who was a good worker and someone who wanted to work there.
Nowt to do with women, just what PB said.pblakeney said:The culture is hostile full stop.
By rule of thumb, the heavier the industry, the tougher the gig.
75% of medical students are now women.
The average age of retirement of women doctors is 32.
So...there actually is a bit of a problem building with this in many technical jobs...
32 ? That can't be true.
A quick google suggests that it's almost certainly not - a study of medical graduates from 74-77 have similar retirement ages regardless of their sex - can't see why that group would be so untypical of the population.
As a perspective from another profession with a similarly long training period I would suggest that useful experience is not directly related to time in the office. It's possible to spend 5 years learning nothing. Equally, we've found that those returning part time from maternity leave often work more efficiently and are more organised.First.Aspect said:
Well what I do isn't anything to do with old rope, RC, and for at least 5 years after spending about 5 years qualifying, sheer volume of experience absolutely matters.rick_chasey said:
Taking time off to look after kids is normal and necessary.pblakeney said:
To disagree is fine, but why?rick_chasey said:
It reads rather differently on a CV so I disagree.pblakeney said:From a career perspective there is no difference between taking 5 years off to raise a child and 5 years sabbatical to travel the world.
There is a difference in society terms, but not an individual's career.
I guess one of our opinions is unpopular. 😉
Taking 5 years off to sun yourself isn’t and gives off lazy and not-career-minded vibes, rightly or wrongly.
I just want to challenge your presumption that somehow breeding is the most laudable thing one can ever do and society should prostrate itself to the endeavour. Isn't having children the ultimate selfish act? It's very bad for the environment for starters. And who is it for, primarily? Pretty sure you didn't have kids so that they would be able to look after childless old people, did you? If so, thank you so much and I take it all back.
I've never had a problem with equal pay for equal experience, but I struggle with coarse and misleading gender pay gap comparisons.
I think part of what Rick describes is just the reaction to the previous attitudes to parental leave. Don't forget it was less than 10 years ago that men got the option to take more than 2 weeks paternity leave. Now people realise that that attitude cost them in the long run and probably the same will happen with people going travelling.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
When you feel you are paying for someone else's kids, it is better to think that you are repaying your childhood debt to society instead.First.Aspect said:
I kind of take the view that being a parent, for that parent, is the reward.rick_chasey said:
Ah makes sense.First.Aspect said:
Take a look at what problems over population causes.rick_chasey said:
So I’m offering up macro reasons to put your individualist reasons into perspective.First.Aspect said:
Well what I do isn't anything to do with old rope, RC, and for at least 5 years after spending about 5 years qualifying, sheer volume of experience absolutely matters.rick_chasey said:
Taking time off to look after kids is normal and necessary.pblakeney said:
To disagree is fine, but why?rick_chasey said:
It reads rather differently on a CV so I disagree.pblakeney said:From a career perspective there is no difference between taking 5 years off to raise a child and 5 years sabbatical to travel the world.
There is a difference in society terms, but not an individual's career.
I guess one of our opinions is unpopular. 😉
Taking 5 years off to sun yourself isn’t and gives off lazy and not-career-minded vibes, rightly or wrongly.
I just want to challenge your presumption that somehow breeding is the most laudable thing one can ever do and society should prostrate itself to the endeavour. Isn't having children the ultimate selfish act? It's very bad for the environment for starters. And who is it for, primarily? Pretty sure you didn't have kids so that they would be able to look after childless old people, did you? If so, thank you so much and I take it all back.
I've never had a problem with equal pay for equal experience, but I struggle with coarse and misleading gender pay gap comparisons.
Take a look at some of the problems depopulation causes.
That and I believe the advantages of a diverse workforce (which includes a decent mixture of genders) outweigh the cost of taking someone on who has been out on parental leave.
You could of course even it out by forcing men to take as much time off to rear children as women tend to, but I suspect that’s not the type of equality you’re after.
There’s also an argument about better brought up kids make for better future citizens but I’ve not managed to have that debate without people getting upset.
I'm not going into why I don't have kids, but it is not a selfish act.
Careers take different trajectories. Past a certain point it makes no difference, but there are issues in pretending that it makes no difference before then. It is a form of positive discrimination. That's a step beyond facilitation.
Men and women taking equal time out of work for childcare makes perfect sense to me. This is what seems to happen in a lot of households now, didn't you know? Interesting use of the word "force" though. "Allow" might be better.
You are being preposterous if you are arguing that you personally had children for any reasons other than for yourself.
When you are a parent it doesn’t feel very selfish..!
You stop putting yourself first and have to put your child first.
Anyway that’s not the argument nor the point.
Maybe it’s a philosophical one but I think on a societal level it’s important not to reduce employment opportunities because people chose to bring up children.
And I sort of feel your original point works if you just focus on the individual role (why take on someone who’s been out of the market for a while, regardless of why) but it doesn’t on a broader level because it puts parents (usually mothers) at a disadvantage.
I understand the macro argument, but they aren't anything whatsoever to do with anyone's personal decisions.
Whilst it may not feel selfish at the time, having and bringing up children absolutely is, so completely and immersively that parents like you seem somehow to expect people like me to be grateful for your sacrifice.
I happen to think that there are many, many more people on earth than can really be good, including on our uncomfortably cramped little island. Which is a bit more of a "macro" reason than perpetuating a market economy.0 -
Paternity leave could still be improved significantly. The two weeks is basically unpaid, and eligibility for the rest depends on whether the mother works and how much time she is taking off. You also have no rights if you are self-employed.rjsterry said:
Well sure. It is more challenging to employ people who want to spend some time with their families, but unless we are going to provide universal childcarenickice said:
My dad is a retired GP and he used to complain about female doctors asking to go part-time as it was more complicated to have two part-times rather than one full-timer. I can quite believe a lot of women with young children would want to leave the profession as the hours are much longer than when my dad was younger.surrey_commuter said:
You can not retire before 55 even if you build up the contributions to a level high enough to leave you a decent sum after reduction factors.DeVlaeminck said:ddraver said:
Was earwigging a conversation my Dad was having with his also-retired-colleagues recently when this gem came upblazing_saddles said:rick_chasey said:
So is it that women don't like the job, or is it that the culture is hostile to women?
Both parties have lost out there - someone who was a good worker and someone who wanted to work there.
Nowt to do with women, just what PB said.pblakeney said:The culture is hostile full stop.
By rule of thumb, the heavier the industry, the tougher the gig.
75% of medical students are now women.
The average age of retirement of women doctors is 32.
So...there actually is a bit of a problem building with this in many technical jobs...
32 ? That can't be true.
A quick google suggests that it's almost certainly not - a study of medical graduates from 74-77 have similar retirement ages regardless of their sex - can't see why that group would be so untypical of the population.
As a perspective from another profession with a similarly long training period I would suggest that useful experience is not directly related to time in the office. It's possible to spend 5 years learning nothing. Equally, we've found that those returning part time from maternity leave often work more efficiently and are more organised.First.Aspect said:
Well what I do isn't anything to do with old rope, RC, and for at least 5 years after spending about 5 years qualifying, sheer volume of experience absolutely matters.rick_chasey said:
Taking time off to look after kids is normal and necessary.pblakeney said:
To disagree is fine, but why?rick_chasey said:
It reads rather differently on a CV so I disagree.pblakeney said:From a career perspective there is no difference between taking 5 years off to raise a child and 5 years sabbatical to travel the world.
There is a difference in society terms, but not an individual's career.
I guess one of our opinions is unpopular. 😉
Taking 5 years off to sun yourself isn’t and gives off lazy and not-career-minded vibes, rightly or wrongly.
I just want to challenge your presumption that somehow breeding is the most laudable thing one can ever do and society should prostrate itself to the endeavour. Isn't having children the ultimate selfish act? It's very bad for the environment for starters. And who is it for, primarily? Pretty sure you didn't have kids so that they would be able to look after childless old people, did you? If so, thank you so much and I take it all back.
I've never had a problem with equal pay for equal experience, but I struggle with coarse and misleading gender pay gap comparisons.
I think part of what Rick describes is just the reaction to the previous attitudes to parental leave. Don't forget it was less than 10 years ago that men got the option to take more than 2 weeks paternity leave. Now people realise that that attitude cost them in the long run and probably the same will happen with people going travelling.
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I've done a lot of things I regret but travelling (or in my case working abroad) is not one of them. You need to get that out of your system or you risk having a midlife crisis. I have friends who are financially much better off than me but they look back on a missed opportunity.2
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She still wins for me. People are talking about her being President in the future. It's quite incredible.kingstongraham said:
That's quite a high bar. Even now there's Louie Gohmert and Thomas Massie.nickice said:I think Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is one of the most stupid people to ever be elected to the US congress.
And the guy who never noticed all the abuse when coach of a wrestling team.0 -
Cake Stop could really use an "it's gone off topic" chat thread.
The older I get, the better I was.1 -
Remuneration is based on multiple factors. I'm just questioning whether one particular way of not doing something should be given as much emphasis.rjsterry said:
Well sure. It is more challenging to employ people who want to spend some time with their families, but unless we are going to provide universal childcarenickice said:
My dad is a retired GP and he used to complain about female doctors asking to go part-time as it was more complicated to have two part-times rather than one full-timer. I can quite believe a lot of women with young children would want to leave the profession as the hours are much longer than when my dad was younger.surrey_commuter said:
You can not retire before 55 even if you build up the contributions to a level high enough to leave you a decent sum after reduction factors.DeVlaeminck said:ddraver said:
Was earwigging a conversation my Dad was having with his also-retired-colleagues recently when this gem came upblazing_saddles said:rick_chasey said:
So is it that women don't like the job, or is it that the culture is hostile to women?
Both parties have lost out there - someone who was a good worker and someone who wanted to work there.
Nowt to do with women, just what PB said.pblakeney said:The culture is hostile full stop.
By rule of thumb, the heavier the industry, the tougher the gig.
75% of medical students are now women.
The average age of retirement of women doctors is 32.
So...there actually is a bit of a problem building with this in many technical jobs...
32 ? That can't be true.
A quick google suggests that it's almost certainly not - a study of medical graduates from 74-77 have similar retirement ages regardless of their sex - can't see why that group would be so untypical of the population.
As a perspective from another profession with a similarly long training period I would suggest that useful experience is not directly related to time in the office. It's possible to spend 5 years learning nothing. Equally, we've found that those returning part time from maternity leave often work more efficiently and are more organised.First.Aspect said:
Well what I do isn't anything to do with old rope, RC, and for at least 5 years after spending about 5 years qualifying, sheer volume of experience absolutely matters.rick_chasey said:
Taking time off to look after kids is normal and necessary.pblakeney said:
To disagree is fine, but why?rick_chasey said:
It reads rather differently on a CV so I disagree.pblakeney said:From a career perspective there is no difference between taking 5 years off to raise a child and 5 years sabbatical to travel the world.
There is a difference in society terms, but not an individual's career.
I guess one of our opinions is unpopular. 😉
Taking 5 years off to sun yourself isn’t and gives off lazy and not-career-minded vibes, rightly or wrongly.
I just want to challenge your presumption that somehow breeding is the most laudable thing one can ever do and society should prostrate itself to the endeavour. Isn't having children the ultimate selfish act? It's very bad for the environment for starters. And who is it for, primarily? Pretty sure you didn't have kids so that they would be able to look after childless old people, did you? If so, thank you so much and I take it all back.
I've never had a problem with equal pay for equal experience, but I struggle with coarse and misleading gender pay gap comparisons.
I think part of what Rick describes is just the reaction to the previous attitudes to parental leave. Don't forget it was less than 10 years ago that men got the option to take more than 2 weeks paternity leave. Now people realise that that attitude cost them in the long run and probably the same will happen with people going travelling.
A working environment that facilitates being a parent is healthy and benefits everyone.
The question is how one defines a "pay gap".0 -
I have noticed this tends to happen quite often, generally right after Rick uses the phrase: "I disagree".capt_slog said:Cake Stop could really use an "it's gone off topic" chat thread.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.2 -
Gap years are not just for the privileged. Wealth may affect your style, but shouldn't prevent you experiencing new things.1
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Yeah that's a head scratcher. I guess RC didn't do a gap year?TheBigBean said:Gap years are not just for the privileged. Wealth may affect your style, but shouldn't prevent you experiencing new things.
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Maybe because people he knows might have had a bit of cash so he assumed everyone does it the way they did it.First.Aspect said:
Yeah that's a head scratcher. I guess RC didn't do a gap year?TheBigBean said:Gap years are not just for the privileged. Wealth may affect your style, but shouldn't prevent you experiencing new things.
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Scholarship to private school?nickice said:
Maybe because people he knows might have had a bit of cash so he assumed everyone does it the way they did it.First.Aspect said:
Yeah that's a head scratcher. I guess RC didn't do a gap year?TheBigBean said:Gap years are not just for the privileged. Wealth may affect your style, but shouldn't prevent you experiencing new things.
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Work, save some money, go on a road trip is how most elite British rock climbers have operated for years. Then settle down open your own climbing wall or set up a rope access company. There does not appear to be that many hooray Henry’s in the current British top tier.
Does Rick know any real people.0 -
My comment wasn't just inspired by Rick otherwise I wouldn't have thought it was relevant to this thread.0
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If I were to choose one over the other, I'd be more inclined to offer a job to the candidate who had travelled a bit rather than the one in pursuit of the Nuclear Family ideal.
All other things being equal, obviously.
Travel broadens the mind, allows you to see different perspectives: pretty solid qualities in someone I'd want in my team.Ben
Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
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Agreed. And when I had my first it was the option of two weeks and that was it. That was only 11 years ago.TheBigBean said:
Paternity leave could still be improved significantly. The two weeks is basically unpaid, and eligibility for the rest depends on whether the mother works and how much time she is taking off. You also have no rights if you are self-employed.rjsterry said:
Well sure. It is more challenging to employ people who want to spend some time with their families, but unless we are going to provide universal childcarenickice said:
My dad is a retired GP and he used to complain about female doctors asking to go part-time as it was more complicated to have two part-times rather than one full-timer. I can quite believe a lot of women with young children would want to leave the profession as the hours are much longer than when my dad was younger.surrey_commuter said:
You can not retire before 55 even if you build up the contributions to a level high enough to leave you a decent sum after reduction factors.DeVlaeminck said:ddraver said:
Was earwigging a conversation my Dad was having with his also-retired-colleagues recently when this gem came upblazing_saddles said:rick_chasey said:
So is it that women don't like the job, or is it that the culture is hostile to women?
Both parties have lost out there - someone who was a good worker and someone who wanted to work there.
Nowt to do with women, just what PB said.pblakeney said:The culture is hostile full stop.
By rule of thumb, the heavier the industry, the tougher the gig.
75% of medical students are now women.
The average age of retirement of women doctors is 32.
So...there actually is a bit of a problem building with this in many technical jobs...
32 ? That can't be true.
A quick google suggests that it's almost certainly not - a study of medical graduates from 74-77 have similar retirement ages regardless of their sex - can't see why that group would be so untypical of the population.
As a perspective from another profession with a similarly long training period I would suggest that useful experience is not directly related to time in the office. It's possible to spend 5 years learning nothing. Equally, we've found that those returning part time from maternity leave often work more efficiently and are more organised.First.Aspect said:
Well what I do isn't anything to do with old rope, RC, and for at least 5 years after spending about 5 years qualifying, sheer volume of experience absolutely matters.rick_chasey said:
Taking time off to look after kids is normal and necessary.pblakeney said:
To disagree is fine, but why?rick_chasey said:
It reads rather differently on a CV so I disagree.pblakeney said:From a career perspective there is no difference between taking 5 years off to raise a child and 5 years sabbatical to travel the world.
There is a difference in society terms, but not an individual's career.
I guess one of our opinions is unpopular. 😉
Taking 5 years off to sun yourself isn’t and gives off lazy and not-career-minded vibes, rightly or wrongly.
I just want to challenge your presumption that somehow breeding is the most laudable thing one can ever do and society should prostrate itself to the endeavour. Isn't having children the ultimate selfish act? It's very bad for the environment for starters. And who is it for, primarily? Pretty sure you didn't have kids so that they would be able to look after childless old people, did you? If so, thank you so much and I take it all back.
I've never had a problem with equal pay for equal experience, but I struggle with coarse and misleading gender pay gap comparisons.
I think part of what Rick describes is just the reaction to the previous attitudes to parental leave. Don't forget it was less than 10 years ago that men got the option to take more than 2 weeks paternity leave. Now people realise that that attitude cost them in the long run and probably the same will happen with people going travelling.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Really not that difficult to spot if roles if role is properly defined and performance is measured objectively.First.Aspect said:
Remuneration is based on multiple factors. I'm just questioning whether one particular way of not doing something should be given as much emphasis.rjsterry said:
Well sure. It is more challenging to employ people who want to spend some time with their families, but unless we are going to provide universal childcarenickice said:
My dad is a retired GP and he used to complain about female doctors asking to go part-time as it was more complicated to have two part-times rather than one full-timer. I can quite believe a lot of women with young children would want to leave the profession as the hours are much longer than when my dad was younger.surrey_commuter said:
You can not retire before 55 even if you build up the contributions to a level high enough to leave you a decent sum after reduction factors.DeVlaeminck said:ddraver said:
Was earwigging a conversation my Dad was having with his also-retired-colleagues recently when this gem came upblazing_saddles said:rick_chasey said:
So is it that women don't like the job, or is it that the culture is hostile to women?
Both parties have lost out there - someone who was a good worker and someone who wanted to work there.
Nowt to do with women, just what PB said.pblakeney said:The culture is hostile full stop.
By rule of thumb, the heavier the industry, the tougher the gig.
75% of medical students are now women.
The average age of retirement of women doctors is 32.
So...there actually is a bit of a problem building with this in many technical jobs...
32 ? That can't be true.
A quick google suggests that it's almost certainly not - a study of medical graduates from 74-77 have similar retirement ages regardless of their sex - can't see why that group would be so untypical of the population.
As a perspective from another profession with a similarly long training period I would suggest that useful experience is not directly related to time in the office. It's possible to spend 5 years learning nothing. Equally, we've found that those returning part time from maternity leave often work more efficiently and are more organised.First.Aspect said:
Well what I do isn't anything to do with old rope, RC, and for at least 5 years after spending about 5 years qualifying, sheer volume of experience absolutely matters.rick_chasey said:
Taking time off to look after kids is normal and necessary.pblakeney said:
To disagree is fine, but why?rick_chasey said:
It reads rather differently on a CV so I disagree.pblakeney said:From a career perspective there is no difference between taking 5 years off to raise a child and 5 years sabbatical to travel the world.
There is a difference in society terms, but not an individual's career.
I guess one of our opinions is unpopular. 😉
Taking 5 years off to sun yourself isn’t and gives off lazy and not-career-minded vibes, rightly or wrongly.
I just want to challenge your presumption that somehow breeding is the most laudable thing one can ever do and society should prostrate itself to the endeavour. Isn't having children the ultimate selfish act? It's very bad for the environment for starters. And who is it for, primarily? Pretty sure you didn't have kids so that they would be able to look after childless old people, did you? If so, thank you so much and I take it all back.
I've never had a problem with equal pay for equal experience, but I struggle with coarse and misleading gender pay gap comparisons.
I think part of what Rick describes is just the reaction to the previous attitudes to parental leave. Don't forget it was less than 10 years ago that men got the option to take more than 2 weeks paternity leave. Now people realise that that attitude cost them in the long run and probably the same will happen with people going travelling.
A working environment that facilitates being a parent is healthy and benefits everyone.
The question is how one defines a "pay gap".1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Purely for the sake of argument.rick_chasey said:Gap year is not taking a career break to travel, no?
Your career hasn’t started then!
Those not taking a gap year have one year extra experience over those who do.
Quite important at the early stages.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Disagree.pblakeney said:
Purely for the sake of argument.rick_chasey said:Gap year is not taking a career break to travel, no?
Your career hasn’t started then!
Those not taking a gap year have one year extra experience over those who do.
Quite important at the early stages.0
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