Edward Colston/Trans rights/Stamp collecting

rick_chasey

Lol

kingstongraham

I think it's saying "it's hard if you're poor, and it's difficult to get out of that situation. A larger proportion of those from ethnic minorities are in poverty. But that's not because of racism, and any measures should try to help people get out of poverty"

Which is fine on its own, and I don't disagree that colour blind policies will help all ethnicities, and proportionally help minorities more, but it does kind of ignore a lot of context which is not that old.

david37

HAHAHA it appears the only institutional racism now exists in corporations positively discriminating to manage "quotas". So will the recruitment / talent acquisition specialists now stop discriminating against whites?

We've already had forum members saying discriminating against whites is an acceptable practice but how about a comment from TA?

or is this report to be dismissed because it's counter Mantra? or not published by the right party?

My view is whilst there are still racists in this country, and plenty of anti white racism on show in here, the country is not particularly racist.

david37

rjsterry said:

All so deadeningly predictable. Conservatives know they are generally less trusted than Labour on race issues so commission a report to say 'it's not as bad as all that, and some poor white kids are disadvantaged, too'. This appeals to their core vote who already think its a lot of fuss about nothing, while pushing Labour into denying things have improved over the last few decades, when they patently have. Very little of it is about actually resolving the significant issues which remain. It's just party political point scoring.

thats the point, its not saying there aren't significant issues it's saying racism isnt one.
I'm not sure that the Labour party has bathed itself in glory re Racism. unless its its adoration for islam and appointment of MP shortlists on the basis of colour and religion not quality. The conservatives on the other hand have senior members of government from all sorts of background the chancellor and the home secretary for example. the conservatives are actually (and this may be intolerable for you) the party of equal opportunity and aspiration.

You see, it's only point scoring if you have an inbuilt belief that tories are evil racists. which says a lot about those that do.

pangolin

Ah yes the conservative cabinet, an excellent case study in appointing based on ability

rjsterry

david37 said:

rjsterry said:

All so deadeningly predictable. Conservatives know they are generally less trusted than Labour on race issues so commission a report to say 'it's not as bad as all that, and some poor white kids are disadvantaged, too'. This appeals to their core vote who already think its a lot of fuss about nothing, while pushing Labour into denying things have improved over the last few decades, when they patently have. Very little of it is about actually resolving the significant issues which remain. It's just party political point scoring.

thats the point, its not saying there aren't significant issues it's saying racism isnt one.
I'm not sure that the Labour party has bathed itself in glory re Racism. unless its its adoration for islam and appointment of MP shortlists on the basis of colour and religion not quality. The conservatives on the other hand have senior members of government from all sorts of background the chancellor and the home secretary for example. the conservatives are actually (and this may be intolerable for you) the party of equal opportunity and aspiration.

You see, it's only point scoring if you have an inbuilt belief that tories are evil racists. which says a lot about those that do.

That the Conservatives are less trusted on race issues is the general public perception and particularly among BAME voters. It doesn't really matter whether it is accurate or not. The report is not an enquiring attempt to objectively determine the current state of race relations in England but rather a political attempt by one party to reframe the debate in a manner that better suits them and corners the other party. I don't have much time for either of them and both are just trying to use the issue to bash each other rather than actually trying to identify problems and practical solutions.

veronese68

No surprises in any of the posts about the report, previously held views confirmed so all is well 🙄

rjsterry

My favourite snippet so far is the bit about the school curriculum and how it shouldn't just focus on the negative aspects of the slave trade and that it wasn't only about profit...

Jezyboy

rjsterry said:

My favourite snippet so far is the bit about the school curriculum and how it shouldn't just focus on the negative aspects of the slave trade and that it wasn't only about profit...

I assume they'll also focus on train punctuality in fascist Italy.

rjsterry

If it hadn't been for the British colonising India and asset stripping an entire sub-continent we wouldn't have curry or pyjamas, so not all bad 🤪

elbowloh

rjsterry said:

If it hadn't been for the British colonising India and asset stripping an entire sub-continent we wouldn't have curry or pyjamas, so not all bad 🤪

Not to mention shampoo and gymkhanas

rick_chasey

I mean the irony is that the Tories are saying “hey, it’s all about being poor that reduces opportunities” and not getting heat for it.

kingstongraham

rick_chasey said:

I mean the irony is that the Tories are saying “hey, it’s all about being poor that reduces opportunities” and not getting heat for it.

If they do actually deliver on it, (and not targeted towards specific seats) then it will mean they have to do more than labour when they had to appeal to the wealthy. Ignoring the bits that are designed to fuel conflict that have taken the news cycle.

TheBigBean

I know many people have already made up their minds about the report, and I have only read an article in the Times, but there seem to some interesting bits included.

Jezyboy

The resignation of the PMs senior advisor on ethnic minorities does seem ppoorly timed.

shirley_basso

The CEO of Fullfact has torn the pre-release to pieces saying it no way reflects the actual contect of the report.

TheBigBean

shirley_basso said:

The CEO of Fullfact has torn the pre-release to pieces saying it no way reflects the actual contect of the report.

They should come up with an idiom for that such as don't judge a report by its pre-release.

kingstongraham

shirley_basso said:

The CEO of Fullfact has torn the pre-release to pieces saying it no way reflects the actual contect of the report.

I'm taken aback.

elbowloh

shirley_basso said:

The CEO of Fullfact has torn the pre-release to pieces saying it no way reflects the actual contect of the report.

From the articles i've read, the exec summary doesn't reflect the body of the report.

When you have Bojo, the commissioner of the report and the chairman of the committee all previously stating that they didn't believe that there was institutional racism in the UK before they even started the review kind of gives a clue as to what the report would end up concluding.

surrey_commuter

Jezyboy said:

rjsterry said:

My favourite snippet so far is the bit about the school curriculum and how it shouldn't just focus on the negative aspects of the slave trade and that it wasn't only about profit...

I assume they'll also focus on train punctuality in fascist Italy.

An off topic but interesting fact is that they only made the intl. trains run on time, the domestic ones got worse as they were a lower priority

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

I know many people have already made up their minds about the report, and I have only read an article in the Times, but there seem to some interesting bits included.

Which were?

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

I know many people have already made up their minds about the report, and I have only read an article in the Times, but there seem to some interesting bits included.

Which were?

Education - the bit you laughed about - teaching how much of the UK has been influenced by the rest of the world.

Crime - the challenges, but necessity of creating a diverse police force. "The report warned that ethnic minorities were often put off from joining the police out of fear or pressure from friends or family who believe they are “betraying” their community and “joining the wrong side”." Also, disproportionate stop and search.

Social media - "The report said that social media platforms “provide racists with a new, more public – and more powerful – way to inflict pain and suffering on a host of new victims.” “In many cases the perpetrators use the advent of anonymity, on these platforms and others, to target those they otherwise would not – and could not – reach in the cold light of day. Ethnic minorities, in particular, are disproportionately affected by online harassment, online trolling and cyberbullying,” it said. The commission said the government should make online racial abuse a public policy priority and that, as a minimum, it should put pressure on social media companies such as Facebook and Twitter to better enforce their own terms and conditions."

Other - "The report further described the BAME label as “no longer helpful” and “disguising huge differences in outcomes between ethnic groups”. It pointed out that it allows “institutions and businesses to point to the success of some BAME people in their organisation and absolve themselves of responsibility for people from those minority groups that are doing less well”."

Employment - "The report called for existing training to be replaced with new interventions such as “training and routine skills support for all employees in their professional and personal lives (for example on collaboration, confidence, communication, and presentation skills), which could disproportionately benefit more disadvantaged groups”."

david37

but but but its obviously fake because the prime minister commissioned it.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

I know many people have already made up their minds about the report, and I have only read an article in the Times, but there seem to some interesting bits included.

Which were?

Education - the bit you laughed about - teaching how much of the UK has been influenced by the rest of the world.

Crime - the challenges, but necessity of creating a diverse police force. "The report warned that ethnic minorities were often put off from joining the police out of fear or pressure from friends or family who believe they are “betraying” their community and “joining the wrong side”." Also, disproportionate stop and search.

Social media - "The report said that social media platforms “provide racists with a new, more public – and more powerful – way to inflict pain and suffering on a host of new victims.” “In many cases the perpetrators use the advent of anonymity, on these platforms and others, to target those they otherwise would not – and could not – reach in the cold light of day. Ethnic minorities, in particular, are disproportionately affected by online harassment, online trolling and cyberbullying,” it said. The commission said the government should make online racial abuse a public policy priority and that, as a minimum, it should put pressure on social media companies such as Facebook and Twitter to better enforce their own terms and conditions."

Other - "The report further described the BAME label as “no longer helpful” and “disguising huge differences in outcomes between ethnic groups”. It pointed out that it allows “institutions and businesses to point to the success of some BAME people in their organisation and absolve themselves of responsibility for people from those minority groups that are doing less well”."

Employment - "The report called for existing training to be replaced with new interventions such as “training and routine skills support for all employees in their professional and personal lives (for example on collaboration, confidence, communication, and presentation skills), which could disproportionately benefit more disadvantaged groups”."

Odd. Could have sworn I replied to this. Anyway thanks for posting that.

kingstongraham

The report proposes this language, which is worth bearing in mind when discussing the findings regarding each form:

The Commission therefore proposes the following framework to distinguish between different forms of racial disparity and racism:
1. Explained racial disparities: this term should be used when there are persistent ethnic differential outcomes that can demonstrably be shown to be as a result of other factors such as geography, class or sex.
2. Unexplained racial disparities: persistent differential outcomes for ethnic groups with no conclusive evidence about the causes. This applies to situations where a disparate outcome is identified, but there is no evidence as to what is causing it.
3. Institutional racism: applicable to an institution that is racist or discriminatory processes, policies, attitudes or behaviours in a single institution.
4. Systemic racism: this applies to interconnected organisations, or wider society, which exhibit racist or discriminatory processes, policies, attitudes or behaviours.
5. Structural racism: to describe a legacy of historic racist or discriminatory processes, policies, attitudes or behaviours that continue to shape organisations and societies today.

It's worth reading a bit of it, I dived into the "Bias at work and what to do about it" section on page 121.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/974507/20210331_-_CRED_Report_-_FINAL_-_Web_Accessible.pdf

shirley_basso

Employment - "The report called for existing training to be replaced with new interventions such as “training and routine skills support for all employees in their professional and personal lives (for example on collaboration, confidence, communication, and presentation skills), which could disproportionately benefit more disadvantaged groups”."


Dont tell David37

kingstongraham

Job application field experiments have been carried out in the UK since the late 1960s. The most recent was conducted by Dr Valentina Di Stasio and Professor Anthony Heath as part of a wider EU-funded project and found a call-back ratio of 1.6:1. In other words, to receive a callback, people with ethnic minority names had to write 1.6 letters for every 1 written by someone with a majority name.

...



...

While these applicaton tests show discrimination against names that are recognised as not being traditionally British, it is unclear if this effect is about race, class or perceived foreign culture.

This seems a strange way to imply that there might not be systemic or structural racism.

rick_chasey

I have 100% had a candidate rejected because he was called Jihad.

Easily the best candidate for the job. They went for a guy called Mike.

kingstongraham

rick_chasey said:

I have 100% had a candidate rejected because he was called Jihad.

Easily the best candidate for the job. They went for a guy called Mike.

Probably they thought he wasn't the right class.

rick_chasey

"how can I hire a guy called that, what were his parents thinking?"