Edward Colston/Trans rights/Stamp collecting
Comments
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You said it was 0% genes.rick_chasey said:https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer
This is why it's so much more than just 'socioeconomic'.
It's deeply embedded in everything.
So using your logic the World Champions 2019 Mens and Womens 100m finals must be racist!
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Cause or effect right?TheBigBean said:
5 of Arsenal's six forwards are black. All of their goalkeepers and defenders are white. Commentary by position varies. Therefore commentary on Arsenal could be perceived to be racist.rick_chasey said:
OK what are you driving at here? The guy goes through the methodology and what the control is.TheBigBean said:
This is Arsenal's team. Scroll through and do some racial analysis. What do you notice? Yes, it is only a sample size of one, but I would guess it is fairly typical.rick_chasey said:https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer
This is why it's so much more than just 'socioeconomic'.
It's deeply embedded in everything.
https://www.arsenal.com/men/players
It would have been very interesting to do this across the whole premier league, and the look at why different positions have different racial representations.
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I don't have an answer, but I think culture plays a part.rick_chasey said:
Cause or effect right?TheBigBean said:
5 of Arsenal's six forwards are black. All of their goalkeepers and defenders are white. Commentary by position varies. Therefore commentary on Arsenal could be perceived to be racist.rick_chasey said:
OK what are you driving at here? The guy goes through the methodology and what the control is.TheBigBean said:
This is Arsenal's team. Scroll through and do some racial analysis. What do you notice? Yes, it is only a sample size of one, but I would guess it is fairly typical.rick_chasey said:https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer
This is why it's so much more than just 'socioeconomic'.
It's deeply embedded in everything.
https://www.arsenal.com/men/players
It would have been very interesting to do this across the whole premier league, and the look at why different positions have different racial representations.
I just think research that ignores things like is unhelpful.
To complete my analysis though, defenders are usually described as intelligent (as per survery) and forwards are usually quick (as per survery). I would have expected forwards to receive higher praise by scoring goals and defenders worse criticism by conceding them; however, there is no relative measure in this, so I would expect defenders to receive more low level praise overall simply because there aren't many goals (as per survery). e.g. good tackle vs he just needed to pass it (to the player he didn't see and probably couldn't pass it to anyway)
Work ethic and power are more interesting. I'd think that work ethic is more usually attributed to defensive players, perhaps defensive midfielders. Power is an unusual word as I would expect strength to be referenced. Perhaps commentators are racist with their use of the word power. I don't know. But I lost faith in the whole survey.
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john80 said:
I am laughing at all the covid doom mongers that were heavily on on the risk averse side criticising police for not waiting to come to harm when approaching people they think are suspects with intelligence that they are armed with knives. The consistency on this forum is pretty special.
You must be as it's rather obvious as to which conversation John is referring.kingstongraham said:
I must be missing some posts on my computer.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
I understand it's probably about the Lea Valley incident, but haven't seen loads of people criticising the police actions.blazing_saddles said:john80 said:I am laughing at all the covid doom mongers that were heavily on on the risk averse side criticising police for not waiting to come to harm when approaching people they think are suspects with intelligence that they are armed with knives. The consistency on this forum is pretty special.
You must be as it's rather obvious as to which conversation John is referring.kingstongraham said:
I must be missing some posts on my computer.0 -
...1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
He seems to think they had intelligence that he was armed. They did not, or they would have said so in their statement.kingstongraham said:
I must be missing some posts on my computer.john80 said:I am laughing at all the covid doom mongers that were heavily on on the risk averse side criticising police for not waiting to come to harm when approaching people they think are suspects with intelligence that they are armed with knives. The consistency on this forum is pretty special.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Interesting study, it's not a peer reviewed paper and the guy seems to be someone with a degree in computing who normally reviews trainers but he does say he's copied the methodology from previous studies from other sports.rick_chasey said:https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer
This is why it's so much more than just 'socioeconomic'.
It's deeply embedded in everything.
I had a scan of what he'd done the other day and some of it looked questionable but that's not to say it has introduced a bias either way. For example he doesn't say if the transcriptions were coded without knowing who the player was - if he is coding a statement about Troy Deeney as a football fan he knows Troy Deeney is black so clearly that might bias how he codes that statement.
I wouldn't want to take it as gospel but neither can it just be dismissed - I'd say it's worth further investigation based on that study.
It's perfectly possible that black players are stereotyped as "athletes" rather than intelligent footballers. I have spoken to a number of coaches of grassroots youth sides and some academy coaches who think that academies are biased towards pace and power so that would explain why black players dominate pro academies - to an even bigger extent than they are over represented in the senior ranks. So they might benefit from it to that extent but then find it plays against then when they come to seek employment as coaches where presumably pace and power are less valued attributes.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
The author of that article is a Bear. 'Nuff said.
(Glasgow Rangers fan, in case you were wondering)0 -
♪ It is old but it is beautiful..." ♪
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A statue of former Ethiopian leader Haile Selassie has been destroyed in a park in Wimbledon, south-west London.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53259409
It appears to be linked to unrest in Ethiopia sparked after a popular singer, Hachalu Hundessa, was shot dead earlier this week. Demonstrations following his death saw a statue of royal prince Ras Makonnen Wolde Mikael, the father of Selassie, Ethiopia's last emperor, torn down in the eastern city of Harar.
Hachalu's songs focused on the rights of Ethiopia's Oromo ethnic group and he had been a prominent voice in anti-government protests that led to a change in leadership in 2018.
Meanwhile....
https://www.change.org/p/a-statue-for-emperor-haile-selassie
A STATUE FOR EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE!
His Royal Highness Emperor Haile Selassie I, had played crucial role in financing the Headquarters of the OAU, The Emperor was elected as President of the OAU, OAU building was built in Ethiopia because Ethiopia is a symbol of independence for all Africans...........................................the Emperor played crucial role in defending Africa countries' sovereignty, territorial integrity, unity and independence, the Emperor was the soul and heart of the idea of African Unity and in his fierce fight to eradicate all forms of colonialism from Africa. So, we, Ethiopians/Africans demand the "STATUE of EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE” to be part of the new building of AU in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
A rather confused state of affairs I would say.
It's obviously going to be a growing trend as more grievance groups seeking to be heard now realise such an act will generate headlines.
Somebody should start a Smash A Statue movement as it's got a great abbreviation for the bandwagon.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
"Before jumping on any bandwagon, you should check who is driving it"
Wise words. I wish I could take credit for them.
And a big shout out to DeVlaeminck for posting this little gem in Cake Stop
"The Voice has on several occasions called for more stop and search to protect young black youth from being stabbed - one editorial described objections as white liberal middle class hand wringing." 2 -
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.blazing_saddles said:A statue of former Ethiopian leader Haile Selassie has been destroyed in a park in Wimbledon, south-west London.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53259409
It appears to be linked to unrest in Ethiopia sparked after a popular singer, Hachalu Hundessa, was shot dead earlier this week. Demonstrations following his death saw a statue of royal prince Ras Makonnen Wolde Mikael, the father of Selassie, Ethiopia's last emperor, torn down in the eastern city of Harar.
Hachalu's songs focused on the rights of Ethiopia's Oromo ethnic group and he had been a prominent voice in anti-government protests that led to a change in leadership in 2018.
Meanwhile....
https://www.change.org/p/a-statue-for-emperor-haile-selassie
A STATUE FOR EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE!
His Royal Highness Emperor Haile Selassie I, had played crucial role in financing the Headquarters of the OAU, The Emperor was elected as President of the OAU, OAU building was built in Ethiopia because Ethiopia is a symbol of independence for all Africans...........................................the Emperor played crucial role in defending Africa countries' sovereignty, territorial integrity, unity and independence, the Emperor was the soul and heart of the idea of African Unity and in his fierce fight to eradicate all forms of colonialism from Africa. So, we, Ethiopians/Africans demand the "STATUE of EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE” to be part of the new building of AU in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
A rather confused state of affairs I would say.
It's obviously going to be a growing trend as more grievance groups seeking to be heard now realise such an act will generate headlines.
Somebody should start a Smash A Statue movement as it's got a great abbreviation for the bandwagon.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Sorry, I don't get how Haile Selassie has fallen out of favour.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.blazing_saddles said:A statue of former Ethiopian leader Haile Selassie has been destroyed in a park in Wimbledon, south-west London.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53259409
It appears to be linked to unrest in Ethiopia sparked after a popular singer, Hachalu Hundessa, was shot dead earlier this week. Demonstrations following his death saw a statue of royal prince Ras Makonnen Wolde Mikael, the father of Selassie, Ethiopia's last emperor, torn down in the eastern city of Harar.
Hachalu's songs focused on the rights of Ethiopia's Oromo ethnic group and he had been a prominent voice in anti-government protests that led to a change in leadership in 2018.
Meanwhile....
https://www.change.org/p/a-statue-for-emperor-haile-selassie
A STATUE FOR EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE!
His Royal Highness Emperor Haile Selassie I, had played crucial role in financing the Headquarters of the OAU, The Emperor was elected as President of the OAU, OAU building was built in Ethiopia because Ethiopia is a symbol of independence for all Africans...........................................the Emperor played crucial role in defending Africa countries' sovereignty, territorial integrity, unity and independence, the Emperor was the soul and heart of the idea of African Unity and in his fierce fight to eradicate all forms of colonialism from Africa. So, we, Ethiopians/Africans demand the "STATUE of EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE” to be part of the new building of AU in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
A rather confused state of affairs I would say.
It's obviously going to be a growing trend as more grievance groups seeking to be heard now realise such an act will generate headlines.
Somebody should start a Smash A Statue movement as it's got a great abbreviation for the bandwagon.
Perhaps you could enlighten me.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Infamous for persecuting and then driving out Harari muslims from Ethiopia (though he wasn't the only ethopian leader to make it hard for them).blazing_saddles said:
Sorry, I don't get how Haile Selassie has fallen out of favour.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.blazing_saddles said:A statue of former Ethiopian leader Haile Selassie has been destroyed in a park in Wimbledon, south-west London.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53259409
It appears to be linked to unrest in Ethiopia sparked after a popular singer, Hachalu Hundessa, was shot dead earlier this week. Demonstrations following his death saw a statue of royal prince Ras Makonnen Wolde Mikael, the father of Selassie, Ethiopia's last emperor, torn down in the eastern city of Harar.
Hachalu's songs focused on the rights of Ethiopia's Oromo ethnic group and he had been a prominent voice in anti-government protests that led to a change in leadership in 2018.
Meanwhile....
https://www.change.org/p/a-statue-for-emperor-haile-selassie
A STATUE FOR EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE!
His Royal Highness Emperor Haile Selassie I, had played crucial role in financing the Headquarters of the OAU, The Emperor was elected as President of the OAU, OAU building was built in Ethiopia because Ethiopia is a symbol of independence for all Africans...........................................the Emperor played crucial role in defending Africa countries' sovereignty, territorial integrity, unity and independence, the Emperor was the soul and heart of the idea of African Unity and in his fierce fight to eradicate all forms of colonialism from Africa. So, we, Ethiopians/Africans demand the "STATUE of EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE” to be part of the new building of AU in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
A rather confused state of affairs I would say.
It's obviously going to be a growing trend as more grievance groups seeking to be heard now realise such an act will generate headlines.
Somebody should start a Smash A Statue movement as it's got a great abbreviation for the bandwagon.
Perhaps you could enlighten me.0 -
And Bekele took his 10,000m world record...rick_chasey said:
Infamous for persecuting and then driving out Harari muslims from Ethiopia (though he wasn't the only ethopian leader to make it hard for them).blazing_saddles said:
Sorry, I don't get how Haile Selassie has fallen out of favour.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.blazing_saddles said:A statue of former Ethiopian leader Haile Selassie has been destroyed in a park in Wimbledon, south-west London.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53259409
It appears to be linked to unrest in Ethiopia sparked after a popular singer, Hachalu Hundessa, was shot dead earlier this week. Demonstrations following his death saw a statue of royal prince Ras Makonnen Wolde Mikael, the father of Selassie, Ethiopia's last emperor, torn down in the eastern city of Harar.
Hachalu's songs focused on the rights of Ethiopia's Oromo ethnic group and he had been a prominent voice in anti-government protests that led to a change in leadership in 2018.
Meanwhile....
https://www.change.org/p/a-statue-for-emperor-haile-selassie
A STATUE FOR EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE!
His Royal Highness Emperor Haile Selassie I, had played crucial role in financing the Headquarters of the OAU, The Emperor was elected as President of the OAU, OAU building was built in Ethiopia because Ethiopia is a symbol of independence for all Africans...........................................the Emperor played crucial role in defending Africa countries' sovereignty, territorial integrity, unity and independence, the Emperor was the soul and heart of the idea of African Unity and in his fierce fight to eradicate all forms of colonialism from Africa. So, we, Ethiopians/Africans demand the "STATUE of EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE” to be part of the new building of AU in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
A rather confused state of affairs I would say.
It's obviously going to be a growing trend as more grievance groups seeking to be heard now realise such an act will generate headlines.
Somebody should start a Smash A Statue movement as it's got a great abbreviation for the bandwagon.
Perhaps you could enlighten me.0 -
You can argue this one back and forth as long as you want, but it seems to be getting forgotten that the issue a lot of us had isn't about whether statues stand or fall: it's about whether a self-appointed "vanguard" or random mob have the right to decide for us.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.
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There's an explanation in the BBC link you posted - essentially Ethiopian politics played out in Wimbledon. Nowt to do with BLM, but they may have nicked the idea of toppling statues.blazing_saddles said:
Sorry, I don't get how Haile Selassie has fallen out of favour.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.blazing_saddles said:A statue of former Ethiopian leader Haile Selassie has been destroyed in a park in Wimbledon, south-west London.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53259409
It appears to be linked to unrest in Ethiopia sparked after a popular singer, Hachalu Hundessa, was shot dead earlier this week. Demonstrations following his death saw a statue of royal prince Ras Makonnen Wolde Mikael, the father of Selassie, Ethiopia's last emperor, torn down in the eastern city of Harar.
Hachalu's songs focused on the rights of Ethiopia's Oromo ethnic group and he had been a prominent voice in anti-government protests that led to a change in leadership in 2018.
Meanwhile....
https://www.change.org/p/a-statue-for-emperor-haile-selassie
A STATUE FOR EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE!
His Royal Highness Emperor Haile Selassie I, had played crucial role in financing the Headquarters of the OAU, The Emperor was elected as President of the OAU, OAU building was built in Ethiopia because Ethiopia is a symbol of independence for all Africans...........................................the Emperor played crucial role in defending Africa countries' sovereignty, territorial integrity, unity and independence, the Emperor was the soul and heart of the idea of African Unity and in his fierce fight to eradicate all forms of colonialism from Africa. So, we, Ethiopians/Africans demand the "STATUE of EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE” to be part of the new building of AU in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
A rather confused state of affairs I would say.
It's obviously going to be a growing trend as more grievance groups seeking to be heard now realise such an act will generate headlines.
Somebody should start a Smash A Statue movement as it's got a great abbreviation for the bandwagon.
Perhaps you could enlighten me.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Quoting this post as there seems to be an attempt on here to suppress this donation to an anti-Semite political movementpangolin said:Again thanks for the reminder Coop
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Still funny.0
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Sure.bompington said:
You can argue this one back and forth as long as you want, but it seems to be getting forgotten that the issue a lot of us had isn't about whether statues stand or fall: it's about whether a self-appointed "vanguard" or random mob have the right to decide for us.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.
Out of interest, who is deciding which statues to erect?0 -
Looking at history, angry mob is the usual method, but sometimes it is state sanctioned. If self-appointed people can put them up as was the case with the Colston statue, it seems quite fitting that they are pulled down without permission. Better that than have some meaningless public art that offends no one.bompington said:
You can argue this one back and forth as long as you want, but it seems to be getting forgotten that the issue a lot of us had isn't about whether statues stand or fall: it's about whether a self-appointed "vanguard" or random mob have the right to decide for us.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Selassie seems unpopular with the Oromo people - a shame they've smashed the statue up I googled the park it was in and it looks lovely with an active "friends of" group - they even have an aviary with rescued birds - the kind of thing that normally went years ago in the UK through under funding and vandalism.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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Well in most cases there'll be a committee formed by those who want the statue and they determine the design and raise funds. In most cases the will then need planning consent so will need to go through the democratic processes involved in that. Sorry, was your point meant to be that random mobs are responsible for them being erected? That may have been the case when the Colston statue and similar were erected but isn't the case today.rick_chasey said:
Sure.bompington said:
You can argue this one back and forth as long as you want, but it seems to be getting forgotten that the issue a lot of us had isn't about whether statues stand or fall: it's about whether a self-appointed "vanguard" or random mob have the right to decide for us.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.
Out of interest, who is deciding which statues to erect?1 -
Surerjsterry said:
There's an explanation in the BBC link you posted - essentially Ethiopian politics played out in Wimbledon. Nowt to do with BLM, but they may have nicked the idea of toppling statues.blazing_saddles said:
Sorry, I don't get how Haile Selassie has fallen out of favour.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.blazing_saddles said:A statue of former Ethiopian leader Haile Selassie has been destroyed in a park in Wimbledon, south-west London.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53259409
It appears to be linked to unrest in Ethiopia sparked after a popular singer, Hachalu Hundessa, was shot dead earlier this week. Demonstrations following his death saw a statue of royal prince Ras Makonnen Wolde Mikael, the father of Selassie, Ethiopia's last emperor, torn down in the eastern city of Harar.
Hachalu's songs focused on the rights of Ethiopia's Oromo ethnic group and he had been a prominent voice in anti-government protests that led to a change in leadership in 2018.
Meanwhile....
https://www.change.org/p/a-statue-for-emperor-haile-selassie
A STATUE FOR EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE!
His Royal Highness Emperor Haile Selassie I, had played crucial role in financing the Headquarters of the OAU, The Emperor was elected as President of the OAU, OAU building was built in Ethiopia because Ethiopia is a symbol of independence for all Africans...........................................the Emperor played crucial role in defending Africa countries' sovereignty, territorial integrity, unity and independence, the Emperor was the soul and heart of the idea of African Unity and in his fierce fight to eradicate all forms of colonialism from Africa. So, we, Ethiopians/Africans demand the "STATUE of EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE” to be part of the new building of AU in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
A rather confused state of affairs I would say.
It's obviously going to be a growing trend as more grievance groups seeking to be heard now realise such an act will generate headlines.
Somebody should start a Smash A Statue movement as it's got a great abbreviation for the bandwagon.
Perhaps you could enlighten me.
Absolutely nowt to do with BLM. Hence the bandwagon.
The Haile Selassie culpability link seemed pretty tenuous to my uneducated mind. (thanks for the info snippet, Rick)
Overall, he does seemed to be mostly revered on the African continent and certainly in the West Indies.
Looking around for an opposite PoV, I have found this bloke on twitter. However, his claims are being questioned in the comments, but also there is some more background.
For an extreme opposite, there is this, although he certainly covers similar ground to the BLM ideology.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/africaatlse/2019/02/04/the-romantic-rewriting-of-haile-selassies-legacy-must-stop/
Learning as we go.............
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
TV Historian David Starkey on Darren Grimes new venture..
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Plymouth Argyle.rick_chasey said:
Sure.bompington said:
You can argue this one back and forth as long as you want, but it seems to be getting forgotten that the issue a lot of us had isn't about whether statues stand or fall: it's about whether a self-appointed "vanguard" or random mob have the right to decide for us.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.
Out of interest, who is deciding which statues to erect? "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
I'm kind of assuming that the final word on statues in public places is down to the elected authorities, and private ground it would be the rightful owner (with the possibility of the council again if planning law says so).rjsterry said:
Looking at history, angry mob is the usual method, but sometimes it is state sanctioned. If self-appointed people can put them up as was the case with the Colston statue, it seems quite fitting that they are pulled down without permission. Better that than have some meaningless public art that offends no one.bompington said:
You can argue this one back and forth as long as you want, but it seems to be getting forgotten that the issue a lot of us had isn't about whether statues stand or fall: it's about whether a self-appointed "vanguard" or random mob have the right to decide for us.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.
But if what we actually want is a free market in statue erecting and destroying... I mean, what could possibly go wrong?0 -
Most statues long predate the Town and Country Planning Act and democratic involvement was pretty limited until the early 20th century. Coincidentally this lack of democracy was the cause of a number of mass protests and riots in 19th century Bristol and establishment worries about the lower orders getting ideas above their station was what led to the Colston statue being erected in the first place.bompington said:
I'm kind of assuming that the final word on statues in public places is down to the elected authorities, and private ground it would be the rightful owner (with the possibility of the council again if planning law says so).rjsterry said:
Looking at history, angry mob is the usual method, but sometimes it is state sanctioned. If self-appointed people can put them up as was the case with the Colston statue, it seems quite fitting that they are pulled down without permission. Better that than have some meaningless public art that offends no one.bompington said:
You can argue this one back and forth as long as you want, but it seems to be getting forgotten that the issue a lot of us had isn't about whether statues stand or fall: it's about whether a self-appointed "vanguard" or random mob have the right to decide for us.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.
But if what we actually want is a free market in statue erecting and destroying... I mean, what could possibly go wrong?
So yes, people should go through the proper procedure, but I really can't get that upset about it.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Rick's comment was 'who is deciding which statues to erect' which implies in current times rather than historically.rjsterry said:
Most statues long predate the Town and Country Planning Act and democratic involvement was pretty limited until the early 20th century. Coincidentally this lack of democracy was the cause of a number of mass protests and riots in 19th century Bristol and establishment worries about the lower orders getting ideas above their station was what led to the Colston statue being erected in the first place.bompington said:
I'm kind of assuming that the final word on statues in public places is down to the elected authorities, and private ground it would be the rightful owner (with the possibility of the council again if planning law says so).rjsterry said:
Looking at history, angry mob is the usual method, but sometimes it is state sanctioned. If self-appointed people can put them up as was the case with the Colston statue, it seems quite fitting that they are pulled down without permission. Better that than have some meaningless public art that offends no one.bompington said:
You can argue this one back and forth as long as you want, but it seems to be getting forgotten that the issue a lot of us had isn't about whether statues stand or fall: it's about whether a self-appointed "vanguard" or random mob have the right to decide for us.rjsterry said:
Removing statues of people who have fallen out of favour has a very long history - as long as there have been statues. The idea that nobody should touch them once they are put up is a modern aberration. The idea that removing them is destroying history is ridiculous. History is not objects.
But if what we actually want is a free market in statue erecting and destroying... I mean, what could possibly go wrong?
So yes, people should go through the proper procedure, but I really can't get that upset about it.0
