Edward Colston/Trans rights/Stamp collecting
Comments
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Lea Valley. I don't think either version is inconsistent with the other. He ran to some bushes and was then held down in those bushes as far as I can tell. I think you are being very generous to two adults stopping a child on a bike, and from the police statement after the incident, they appear to accept that they could have handled it better. I don't think the officers involved are necessarily awful people, but by their actions, one of a child's earliest experiences with the police will be being threatened with a weapon for something with which he had no connection.ballysmate said:
As your version contains a detailed description by the lad of how and why he landed up in the bushes, it does seem more plausible.DeVlaeminck said:
I'm not splitting hairs I'm just repeating what the lad is quoted as saying - "He was crazy angry and shouting. I got scared because I thought he might be mugging me or trying to give me corona so I ran, but there was nowhere to go but in the bushes.”rjsterry said:
The account I read said he was. I'd suggest as neither of us were there, we're not in a position to split hairs. If two people not in uniform stepped out in front of me I'd think twice about stopping. Why on earth do two adult plain clothes police men feel the need to handcuff a child, let alone threaten him with a taser?DeVlaeminck said:Of course I said they were probably heavy handed but at the same time if you are asked to stop by the police investigating an assault with a weapon don't try and run off. My point isn't that this couldn't have been handled better it's that your telling of the story was factually incorrect (he wasn't shoved into brambles) and only from one perspective.
Anyway, let's not get sucked into another diversion.
Put yourself in the position of the police - you've been told there has been a stabbing and the suspects are black and cycling away on the canal towpath. A black teen on a bike appears on the towpath - you shout stop and he tries to flee.
I can imagine they maybe did go over the top but there are at least some mitigating circumstances. There are also maybe mitigating circumstances for a black teen confronted by the police being scared especially in that area. I accept there are grounds for complaint but it's not really comparable to stuff we see in the USA all the time.
Perhaps RJS got the story from someone who had wilfully distorted the story, because the versions vary so much they could be describing different events.
Out of curiosity, where did this happen?
Edit.
Just re read it. London.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rick_chasey said:
As contrarian in chief I fully can see why you would find this appealing.TheBigBean said:
I don't think his position on Brexit is relevant.rick_chasey said:
He's very similar to the person appointed to lead the investigation into racial discrimination in the UK; a black person who doesn't believe the issue is real.TheBigBean said:
This is a very well written and interesting article. Thanks for posting.blazing_saddles said:Definitely not to be read by Rick, but it's black author has offered copy of his pay-walled article that appeared yesterday.
http://futurecities.org.uk/2020/06/23/which-lives-matter/
On a muggy night in August 2016, three laughing Dallas police officers pinned 32-year-old Tony Timpa to the ground, pushed his face into the grass, placed a knee on his back and held him there for fourteen minutes until he was dead. The parallels with the appalling murder of George Floyd are disturbing and uncanny. Like Floyd, Timpa pleaded for his life. Like Floyd, Timpa repeatedly called for help and begged for the policemen to stop. Like Floyd, Timpa was unarmed. And like Floyd, the death was filmed. But both cases do differ in one significant way; Tony Timpa – unlike me – was white.......
It is quite an extensive piece, so feel free to read on.
It's a technique that has been used over the years.
He's written a tonne of fringe articles saying "i'm not racist, since i'm black, but here's something incredibly racist".
Will come as no surprise he was a Brexit Party candidate.
He fully excepts racism exists.
I would have thought you would agree with a lot of what he has written. Especially on the subject of white saviours.
His eloquence makes it an easy read.
Is his view racist? Quite possibly.
And for the record, the group think is not that the U.K. has a systemic racism problem or an institutionally racist problem; else we’d be a lot further down the road to solving it.
I object to the zero sum attitude of a lot of the “well what about white working class” comments as if it’s either/or.
The stats he uses re deaths is almost a trope on the right by now. They miss the more obvious stats around how the police treat people differently (stop & search 12x more likely etc) and offers no reason why murder rates might be so much higher in one community than another; this is often done on the far right to imply that indeed one race is innately more murderous than another.
The guy reminds me of this excellent article on Kanye West: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/05/im-not-black-im-kanye/559763/
its a bit more lyrical and it’s about MJ and Kanye and the writer spends a lot of time saying how awful Trump is as well as discussing his own experience of fame, but the premise is they both try to find their own saviour by leaving their black idendity however they can because the weight of all that history, that cultural baggage holds them, the ridiculously successful in this instance, back.
He feels the same. He wants his failed bid to be an MP to be about his ability to run an election campaign and not about his race; he wants, to take that Atlantic article view, to have the freedom white people have for his race to be a non-issue.
He wants to disassociate himself and the community from the weight and ties of history.
He’s literally using the same arguments white supremacists use to say that those things don’t matter.
If that’s the case, than what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
And to be honest, no argument about this can really be had unless that final question is properly answered by everyone contributing.
Nobody (here) has argued that black social disadvantage or being over represented in some forms of criminality is down to innate characteristics.
That aside - take stop and search - The Voice has on several occasions called for more stop and search to protect young black youth from being stabbed - one editorial described objections as white liberal middle class hand wringing. I'm not saying that more stop and search is right - I'm not an expert on policing and knife crime - but it's hard to just write it off as racism when people who are long time anti racism campaigners and black call for more of it.
Ike Ijeh isn't denying racism he's just objecting to amplifying the effects of racism. He's not saying he is free of the effects of racism he's just saying he's more free of it than some of the rhetoric around BLM would have you believe. He's saying things like stop and search are not simple racist policing - they are an institutional response to high levels of black (often black on black) street crime.
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]2 -
It all seemed rather muddled to me. He can write a nice sentence, but his arguments are all over the place. There are some valid points but then others are sweeping generalisations or unsupported claims and it all feels a bit like he's started with a list of the things he doesn't like about the BLM movement. In particular the section on the removal of the Colston statue is poorly researched. Anyway, worth highlighting that there are different points of view.TheBigBean said:
I don't think his position on Brexit is relevant.rick_chasey said:
He's very similar to the person appointed to lead the investigation into racial discrimination in the UK; a black person who doesn't believe the issue is real.TheBigBean said:
This is a very well written and interesting article. Thanks for posting.blazing_saddles said:Definitely not to be read by Rick, but it's black author has offered copy of his pay-walled article that appeared yesterday.
http://futurecities.org.uk/2020/06/23/which-lives-matter/
On a muggy night in August 2016, three laughing Dallas police officers pinned 32-year-old Tony Timpa to the ground, pushed his face into the grass, placed a knee on his back and held him there for fourteen minutes until he was dead. The parallels with the appalling murder of George Floyd are disturbing and uncanny. Like Floyd, Timpa pleaded for his life. Like Floyd, Timpa repeatedly called for help and begged for the policemen to stop. Like Floyd, Timpa was unarmed. And like Floyd, the death was filmed. But both cases do differ in one significant way; Tony Timpa – unlike me – was white.......
It is quite an extensive piece, so feel free to read on.
It's a technique that has been used over the years.
He's written a tonne of fringe articles saying "i'm not racist, since i'm black, but here's something incredibly racist".
Will come as no surprise he was a Brexit Party candidate.
He fully excepts racism exists.
I would have thought you would agree with a lot of what he has written. Especially on the subject of white saviours.
His eloquence makes it an easy read.
Is his view racist? Quite possibly.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
No different from dismissing someone's views because they are a 'leftie'. We all have our prejudices, Bally.ballysmate said:
Is that just short of calling him a 'coconut'? Apparently that is how the Twitterati greeted the appointment of Munira Mirza. Similarly, the appointments of Javed and Patel.rick_chasey said:
He's very similar to the person appointed to lead the investigation into racial discrimination in the UK; a black person who doesn't believe the issue is real.TheBigBean said:
This is a very well written and interesting article. Thanks for posting.blazing_saddles said:Definitely not to be read by Rick, but it's black author has offered copy of his pay-walled article that appeared yesterday.
http://futurecities.org.uk/2020/06/23/which-lives-matter/
On a muggy night in August 2016, three laughing Dallas police officers pinned 32-year-old Tony Timpa to the ground, pushed his face into the grass, placed a knee on his back and held him there for fourteen minutes until he was dead. The parallels with the appalling murder of George Floyd are disturbing and uncanny. Like Floyd, Timpa pleaded for his life. Like Floyd, Timpa repeatedly called for help and begged for the policemen to stop. Like Floyd, Timpa was unarmed. And like Floyd, the death was filmed. But both cases do differ in one significant way; Tony Timpa – unlike me – was white.......
It is quite an extensive piece, so feel free to read on.
It's a technique that has been used over the years.
He's written a tonne of fringe articles saying "i'm not racist, since i'm black, but here's something incredibly racist".
Will come as no surprise he was a Brexit Party candidate.
Must confess that I don't do Twitter so these reports are second hand.
And again, the implication that someone's views should be dismissed because they wanted to leave the EU.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Re stop and search, I think we can all agree fullfact is more sensible that most, so here is what they say on it: https://fullfact.org/crime/does-stop-search-work/DeVlaeminck said:rick_chasey said:
As contrarian in chief I fully can see why you would find this appealing.TheBigBean said:
I don't think his position on Brexit is relevant.rick_chasey said:
He's very similar to the person appointed to lead the investigation into racial discrimination in the UK; a black person who doesn't believe the issue is real.TheBigBean said:
This is a very well written and interesting article. Thanks for posting.blazing_saddles said:Definitely not to be read by Rick, but it's black author has offered copy of his pay-walled article that appeared yesterday.
http://futurecities.org.uk/2020/06/23/which-lives-matter/
On a muggy night in August 2016, three laughing Dallas police officers pinned 32-year-old Tony Timpa to the ground, pushed his face into the grass, placed a knee on his back and held him there for fourteen minutes until he was dead. The parallels with the appalling murder of George Floyd are disturbing and uncanny. Like Floyd, Timpa pleaded for his life. Like Floyd, Timpa repeatedly called for help and begged for the policemen to stop. Like Floyd, Timpa was unarmed. And like Floyd, the death was filmed. But both cases do differ in one significant way; Tony Timpa – unlike me – was white.......
It is quite an extensive piece, so feel free to read on.
It's a technique that has been used over the years.
He's written a tonne of fringe articles saying "i'm not racist, since i'm black, but here's something incredibly racist".
Will come as no surprise he was a Brexit Party candidate.
He fully excepts racism exists.
I would have thought you would agree with a lot of what he has written. Especially on the subject of white saviours.
His eloquence makes it an easy read.
Is his view racist? Quite possibly.
And for the record, the group think is not that the U.K. has a systemic racism problem or an institutionally racist problem; else we’d be a lot further down the road to solving it.
I object to the zero sum attitude of a lot of the “well what about white working class” comments as if it’s either/or.
The stats he uses re deaths is almost a trope on the right by now. They miss the more obvious stats around how the police treat people differently (stop & search 12x more likely etc) and offers no reason why murder rates might be so much higher in one community than another; this is often done on the far right to imply that indeed one race is innately more murderous than another.
The guy reminds me of this excellent article on Kanye West: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/05/im-not-black-im-kanye/559763/
its a bit more lyrical and it’s about MJ and Kanye and the writer spends a lot of time saying how awful Trump is as well as discussing his own experience of fame, but the premise is they both try to find their own saviour by leaving their black idendity however they can because the weight of all that history, that cultural baggage holds them, the ridiculously successful in this instance, back.
He feels the same. He wants his failed bid to be an MP to be about his ability to run an election campaign and not about his race; he wants, to take that Atlantic article view, to have the freedom white people have for his race to be a non-issue.
He wants to disassociate himself and the community from the weight and ties of history.
He’s literally using the same arguments white supremacists use to say that those things don’t matter.
If that’s the case, than what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
And to be honest, no argument about this can really be had unless that final question is properly answered by everyone contributing.
Nobody (here) has argued that black social disadvantage or being over represented in some forms of criminality is down to innate characteristics.
That aside - take stop and search - The Voice has on several occasions called for more stop and search to protect young black youth from being stabbed - one editorial described objections as white liberal middle class hand wringing. I'm not saying that more stop and search is right - I'm not an expert on policing and knife crime - but it's hard to just write it off as racism when people who are long time anti racism campaigners and black call for more of it.
Ike Ijeh isn't denying racism he's just objecting to amplifying the effects of racism. He's not saying he is free of the effects of racism he's just saying he's more free of it than some of the rhetoric around BLM would have you believe. He's saying things like stop and search are not simple racist policing - they are an institutional response to high levels of black (often black on black) street crime.
I'm not saying he's denying racism.
What are your thoughts about this:what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived in the UK? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?0 -
No sane person disagrees with the statement 'Black Lives Matter' in the same way no sane person disagrees with the statement 'All Lives Matter' or 'White Lives Matter'.
However it is obvious that the BLM movement really means 'Black Lives Matters unless is it Black on Black violence'. They are completely silent on Black on Black crime because that is the root of the issue here but BLM will sweep any suggestion of this under the carpet.
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I normally don't like the argument that the race of the author and the target audience has relevance, but in this context I think it does.rick_chasey said:
As contrarian in chief I fully can see why you would find this appealing.TheBigBean said:
I don't think his position on Brexit is relevant.rick_chasey said:
He's very similar to the person appointed to lead the investigation into racial discrimination in the UK; a black person who doesn't believe the issue is real.TheBigBean said:
This is a very well written and interesting article. Thanks for posting.blazing_saddles said:Definitely not to be read by Rick, but it's black author has offered copy of his pay-walled article that appeared yesterday.
http://futurecities.org.uk/2020/06/23/which-lives-matter/
On a muggy night in August 2016, three laughing Dallas police officers pinned 32-year-old Tony Timpa to the ground, pushed his face into the grass, placed a knee on his back and held him there for fourteen minutes until he was dead. The parallels with the appalling murder of George Floyd are disturbing and uncanny. Like Floyd, Timpa pleaded for his life. Like Floyd, Timpa repeatedly called for help and begged for the policemen to stop. Like Floyd, Timpa was unarmed. And like Floyd, the death was filmed. But both cases do differ in one significant way; Tony Timpa – unlike me – was white.......
It is quite an extensive piece, so feel free to read on.
It's a technique that has been used over the years.
He's written a tonne of fringe articles saying "i'm not racist, since i'm black, but here's something incredibly racist".
Will come as no surprise he was a Brexit Party candidate.
He fully excepts racism exists.
I would have thought you would agree with a lot of what he has written. Especially on the subject of white saviours.
His eloquence makes it an easy read.
Is his view racist? Quite possibly.
And for the record, the group think is not that the U.K. has a systemic racism problem or an institutionally racist problem; else we’d be a lot further down the road to solving it.
I object to the zero sum attitude of a lot of the “well what about white working class” comments as if it’s either/or.
The stats he uses re deaths is almost a trope on the right by now. They miss the more obvious stats around how the police treat people differently (stop & search 12x more likely etc) and offers no reason why murder rates might be so much higher in one community than another; this is often done on the far right to imply that indeed one race is innately more murderous than another.
The guy reminds me of this excellent article on Kanye West: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/05/im-not-black-im-kanye/559763/
its a bit more lyrical and it’s about MJ and Kanye and the writer spends a lot of time saying how awful Trump is as well as discussing his own experience of fame, but the premise is they both try to find their own saviour by leaving their black idendity however they can because the weight of all that history, that cultural baggage holds them, the ridiculously successful in this instance, back.
He feels the same. He wants his failed bid to be an MP to be about his ability to run an election campaign and not about his race; he wants, to take that Atlantic article view, to have the freedom white people have for his race to be a non-issue.
He wants to disassociate himself and the community from the weight and ties of history.
He’s literally using the same arguments white supremacists use to say that those things don’t matter.
If that’s the case, than what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
And to be honest, no argument about this can really be had unless that final question is properly answered by everyone contributing.
To give you an example, I used to go to a barbers that was, for some reason, almost exclusively used by the black community. On the wall was a poster which criticised the black community's lack of contribution to something (I can't remember what exactly, but let's go with blood donation). The purpose was clear, it was produced by the community with a view to encouraging the community to donate blood. No one was offended.
That same poster could have appeared in a white supremacist's house as way to criticise the black community. Then everyone would have been offended and rightly so.
Sometimes the context of the message matters. He feels his community should do more, and he doesn't want to be saved by the white population. That message is, as I suggested above, inherently racist, and so my natural inclination is to disagree with it. Run out of time.
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I think you need to keep going a bit deeper to find the root of the problem you are starting to get at here.coopster_the_1st said:No sane person disagrees with the statement 'Black Lives Matter' in the same way no sane person disagrees with the statement 'All Lives Matter' or 'White Lives Matter'.
However it is obvious that the BLM movement really means 'Black Lives Matters unless is it Black on Black violence'. They are completely silent on Black on Black crime because that is the root of the issue here but BLM will sweep any suggestion of this under the carpet.0 -
Two adults dealing with a 13 year old who they suspect of carrying a knife and has already stabbed someone, changing the dynamic somewhat don't you think?rjsterry said:
Lea Valley. I don't think either version is inconsistent with the other. He ran to some bushes and was then held down in those bushes as far as I can tell. I think you are being very generous to two adults stopping a child on a bike, and from the police statement after the incident, they appear to accept that they could have handled it better. I don't think the officers involved are necessarily awful people, but by their actions, one of a child's earliest experiences with the police will be being threatened with a weapon for something with which he had no connection.ballysmate said:
As your version contains a detailed description by the lad of how and why he landed up in the bushes, it does seem more plausible.DeVlaeminck said:
I'm not splitting hairs I'm just repeating what the lad is quoted as saying - "He was crazy angry and shouting. I got scared because I thought he might be mugging me or trying to give me corona so I ran, but there was nowhere to go but in the bushes.”rjsterry said:
The account I read said he was. I'd suggest as neither of us were there, we're not in a position to split hairs. If two people not in uniform stepped out in front of me I'd think twice about stopping. Why on earth do two adult plain clothes police men feel the need to handcuff a child, let alone threaten him with a taser?DeVlaeminck said:Of course I said they were probably heavy handed but at the same time if you are asked to stop by the police investigating an assault with a weapon don't try and run off. My point isn't that this couldn't have been handled better it's that your telling of the story was factually incorrect (he wasn't shoved into brambles) and only from one perspective.
Anyway, let's not get sucked into another diversion.
Put yourself in the position of the police - you've been told there has been a stabbing and the suspects are black and cycling away on the canal towpath. A black teen on a bike appears on the towpath - you shout stop and he tries to flee.
I can imagine they maybe did go over the top but there are at least some mitigating circumstances. There are also maybe mitigating circumstances for a black teen confronted by the police being scared especially in that area. I accept there are grounds for complaint but it's not really comparable to stuff we see in the USA all the time.
Perhaps RJS got the story from someone who had wilfully distorted the story, because the versions vary so much they could be describing different events.
Out of curiosity, where did this happen?
Edit.
Just re read it. London.
Perhaps the police could have handled it better, I don't know as I wasn't there.
How would you have approached him?
Similarly the vid from the US I posted yesterday involving a police officer confronting a group of teenagers, suspected of being armed with a gun. In that instance, he calmed the situation, no shots were fired, no arrests made and a BB gun recovered. Yet he still faced calls for him to be sacked. How are the police expected to deal with potentially armed suspects?
The 'Allo, allo, allo, what's goin' on 'ere then?' days have long gone.1 -
Your response is exactly the problem I am highlighting as you are deflecting and refusing to acknowledge the biggest issue that would immediately save large numbers of young black male lives.kingstongraham said:
I think you need to keep going a bit deeper to find the root of the problem you are starting to get at here.coopster_the_1st said:No sane person disagrees with the statement 'Black Lives Matter' in the same way no sane person disagrees with the statement 'All Lives Matter' or 'White Lives Matter'.
However it is obvious that the BLM movement really means 'Black Lives Matters unless is it Black on Black violence'. They are completely silent on Black on Black crime because that is the root of the issue here but BLM will sweep any suggestion of this under the carpet.0 -
Your reply means you didn't understand my post.coopster_the_1st said:
Your response is exactly the problem I am highlighting as you are deflecting and refusing to acknowledge the biggest issue that would immediately save large numbers of young black male lives.kingstongraham said:
I think you need to keep going a bit deeper to find the root of the problem you are starting to get at here.coopster_the_1st said:No sane person disagrees with the statement 'Black Lives Matter' in the same way no sane person disagrees with the statement 'All Lives Matter' or 'White Lives Matter'.
However it is obvious that the BLM movement really means 'Black Lives Matters unless is it Black on Black violence'. They are completely silent on Black on Black crime because that is the root of the issue here but BLM will sweep any suggestion of this under the carpet.0 -
There's a difference between it being a possibility that the boy was the person they were looking for and him being a suspect. The only information they had is 'black male on bike'. and they are in an area of London with a significant black population and near a tow path where cycling is pretty likely. That would make the likelihood of him being the suspect pretty low. I would imagine the police have some training on what to do when you don't have a decent description of an armed person who has fled. I would also imagine that they have training on dealing with children.ballysmate said:
Two adults dealing with a 13 year old who they suspect of carrying a knife and has already stabbed someone, changing the dynamic somewhat don't you think?rjsterry said:
Lea Valley. I don't think either version is inconsistent with the other. He ran to some bushes and was then held down in those bushes as far as I can tell. I think you are being very generous to two adults stopping a child on a bike, and from the police statement after the incident, they appear to accept that they could have handled it better. I don't think the officers involved are necessarily awful people, but by their actions, one of a child's earliest experiences with the police will be being threatened with a weapon for something with which he had no connection.ballysmate said:
As your version contains a detailed description by the lad of how and why he landed up in the bushes, it does seem more plausible.DeVlaeminck said:
I'm not splitting hairs I'm just repeating what the lad is quoted as saying - "He was crazy angry and shouting. I got scared because I thought he might be mugging me or trying to give me corona so I ran, but there was nowhere to go but in the bushes.”rjsterry said:
The account I read said he was. I'd suggest as neither of us were there, we're not in a position to split hairs. If two people not in uniform stepped out in front of me I'd think twice about stopping. Why on earth do two adult plain clothes police men feel the need to handcuff a child, let alone threaten him with a taser?DeVlaeminck said:Of course I said they were probably heavy handed but at the same time if you are asked to stop by the police investigating an assault with a weapon don't try and run off. My point isn't that this couldn't have been handled better it's that your telling of the story was factually incorrect (he wasn't shoved into brambles) and only from one perspective.
Anyway, let's not get sucked into another diversion.
Put yourself in the position of the police - you've been told there has been a stabbing and the suspects are black and cycling away on the canal towpath. A black teen on a bike appears on the towpath - you shout stop and he tries to flee.
I can imagine they maybe did go over the top but there are at least some mitigating circumstances. There are also maybe mitigating circumstances for a black teen confronted by the police being scared especially in that area. I accept there are grounds for complaint but it's not really comparable to stuff we see in the USA all the time.
Perhaps RJS got the story from someone who had wilfully distorted the story, because the versions vary so much they could be describing different events.
Out of curiosity, where did this happen?
Edit.
Just re read it. London.
Perhaps the police could have handled it better, I don't know as I wasn't there.
How would you have approached him?
Similarly the vid from the US I posted yesterday involving a police officer confronting a group of teenagers, suspected of being armed with a gun. In that instance, he calmed the situation, no shots were fired, no arrests made and a BB gun recovered. Yet he still faced calls for him to be sacked. How are the police expected to deal with potentially armed suspects?
The 'Allo, allo, allo, what's goin' on 'ere then?' days have long gone.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
kingstongraham said:
Your reply means you didn't understand my post.coopster_the_1st said:
Your response is exactly the problem I am highlighting as you are deflecting and refusing to acknowledge the biggest issue that would immediately save large numbers of young black male lives.kingstongraham said:
I think you need to keep going a bit deeper to find the root of the problem you are starting to get at here.coopster_the_1st said:No sane person disagrees with the statement 'Black Lives Matter' in the same way no sane person disagrees with the statement 'All Lives Matter' or 'White Lives Matter'.
However it is obvious that the BLM movement really means 'Black Lives Matters unless is it Black on Black violence'. They are completely silent on Black on Black crime because that is the root of the issue here but BLM will sweep any suggestion of this under the carpet.
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Nope. Just think a few steps further about your new main concern. What causes that? Why is that the case?coopster_the_1st said:kingstongraham said:
Your reply means you didn't understand my post.coopster_the_1st said:
Your response is exactly the problem I am highlighting as you are deflecting and refusing to acknowledge the biggest issue that would immediately save large numbers of young black male lives.kingstongraham said:
I think you need to keep going a bit deeper to find the root of the problem you are starting to get at here.coopster_the_1st said:No sane person disagrees with the statement 'Black Lives Matter' in the same way no sane person disagrees with the statement 'All Lives Matter' or 'White Lives Matter'.
However it is obvious that the BLM movement really means 'Black Lives Matters unless is it Black on Black violence'. They are completely silent on Black on Black crime because that is the root of the issue here but BLM will sweep any suggestion of this under the carpet.0 -
Well I don't know if black people are more likely to be criminals - I know they are over represented in crime statistics for some types of crime. I don't have any evidence that skin colour is linked to character (in this case propensity to commit crime) through genetics and as I would want that not to be the case I'm happy to assume it isn't until proven otherwise. I'm assuming you agree with me so far?rick_chasey said:
Re stop and search, I think we can all agree fullfact is more sensible that most, so here is what they say on it: https://fullfact.org/crime/does-stop-search-work/DeVlaeminck said:rick_chasey said:
As contrarian in chief I fully can see why you would find this appealing.TheBigBean said:
I don't think his position on Brexit is relevant.rick_chasey said:
He's very similar to the person appointed to lead the investigation into racial discrimination in the UK; a black person who doesn't believe the issue is real.TheBigBean said:
This is a very well written and interesting article. Thanks for posting.blazing_saddles said:Definitely not to be read by Rick, but it's black author has offered copy of his pay-walled article that appeared yesterday.
http://futurecities.org.uk/2020/06/23/which-lives-matter/
On a muggy night in August 2016, three laughing Dallas police officers pinned 32-year-old Tony Timpa to the ground, pushed his face into the grass, placed a knee on his back and held him there for fourteen minutes until he was dead. The parallels with the appalling murder of George Floyd are disturbing and uncanny. Like Floyd, Timpa pleaded for his life. Like Floyd, Timpa repeatedly called for help and begged for the policemen to stop. Like Floyd, Timpa was unarmed. And like Floyd, the death was filmed. But both cases do differ in one significant way; Tony Timpa – unlike me – was white.......
It is quite an extensive piece, so feel free to read on.
It's a technique that has been used over the years.
He's written a tonne of fringe articles saying "i'm not racist, since i'm black, but here's something incredibly racist".
Will come as no surprise he was a Brexit Party candidate.
He fully excepts racism exists.
I would have thought you would agree with a lot of what he has written. Especially on the subject of white saviours.
His eloquence makes it an easy read.
Is his view racist? Quite possibly.
And for the record, the group think is not that the U.K. has a systemic racism problem or an institutionally racist problem; else we’d be a lot further down the road to solving it.
I object to the zero sum attitude of a lot of the “well what about white working class” comments as if it’s either/or.
The stats he uses re deaths is almost a trope on the right by now. They miss the more obvious stats around how the police treat people differently (stop & search 12x more likely etc) and offers no reason why murder rates might be so much higher in one community than another; this is often done on the far right to imply that indeed one race is innately more murderous than another.
The guy reminds me of this excellent article on Kanye West: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/05/im-not-black-im-kanye/559763/
its a bit more lyrical and it’s about MJ and Kanye and the writer spends a lot of time saying how awful Trump is as well as discussing his own experience of fame, but the premise is they both try to find their own saviour by leaving their black idendity however they can because the weight of all that history, that cultural baggage holds them, the ridiculously successful in this instance, back.
He feels the same. He wants his failed bid to be an MP to be about his ability to run an election campaign and not about his race; he wants, to take that Atlantic article view, to have the freedom white people have for his race to be a non-issue.
He wants to disassociate himself and the community from the weight and ties of history.
He’s literally using the same arguments white supremacists use to say that those things don’t matter.
If that’s the case, than what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
And to be honest, no argument about this can really be had unless that final question is properly answered by everyone contributing.
Nobody (here) has argued that black social disadvantage or being over represented in some forms of criminality is down to innate characteristics.
That aside - take stop and search - The Voice has on several occasions called for more stop and search to protect young black youth from being stabbed - one editorial described objections as white liberal middle class hand wringing. I'm not saying that more stop and search is right - I'm not an expert on policing and knife crime - but it's hard to just write it off as racism when people who are long time anti racism campaigners and black call for more of it.
Ike Ijeh isn't denying racism he's just objecting to amplifying the effects of racism. He's not saying he is free of the effects of racism he's just saying he's more free of it than some of the rhetoric around BLM would have you believe. He's saying things like stop and search are not simple racist policing - they are an institutional response to high levels of black (often black on black) street crime.
I'm not saying he's denying racism.
What are your thoughts about this:what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived in the UK? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
So why is there a correlation between being black and certain types of crime in the UK ? I'm not claiming expertise but it appears to me to be largely down to socio economic deprivation and geographic location - poor inner cities tend to be where street crime takes place. It seems likely there are subcultures which develop in some communities which normalise some crime. So Glasgow in the 60s - the classic Glasgow Gang Observed - where in some groups of young people gang violence using knives was normalised leading to almost a culture of carrying a blade . That would contrast say with working class youth in Derbyshire towns at the time - my father in law was a doorman (bouncer) at clubs in mining towns at the same time and he describes fights as a nightly occurrence but knives as unheard of. It seems to me that some of the gang culture in London has normalised crime - and through things like drill music you have that negative culture appealing disproportionately to black youth. Not because they are black any more than Glasgow youth carried blades because they were white.
I'm not denying racism is also a factor and I'm not denying historical racism as playing a part - maybe a big part - in creating the situation we are in now. But there are also poor white people - there are predominantly white areas where it is easy to get pulled into street crime or hard to move up the social ladder. For me it's more a problem of social deprivation and culture - with race laid over the top of that - than something where race is at the root of it.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
That applies to all skin colours in society so is a societal issue not a race one, yet one section of this society is prominent in killing young black males.kingstongraham said:
Nope. Just think a few steps further about your new main concern. What causes that? Why is that the case?coopster_the_1st said:kingstongraham said:
Your reply means you didn't understand my post.coopster_the_1st said:
Your response is exactly the problem I am highlighting as you are deflecting and refusing to acknowledge the biggest issue that would immediately save large numbers of young black male lives.kingstongraham said:
I think you need to keep going a bit deeper to find the root of the problem you are starting to get at here.coopster_the_1st said:No sane person disagrees with the statement 'Black Lives Matter' in the same way no sane person disagrees with the statement 'All Lives Matter' or 'White Lives Matter'.
However it is obvious that the BLM movement really means 'Black Lives Matters unless is it Black on Black violence'. They are completely silent on Black on Black crime because that is the root of the issue here but BLM will sweep any suggestion of this under the carpet.0 -
And... Why is that the case? What do you think causes that?coopster_the_1st said:
That applies to all skin colours in society so is a societal issue not a race one, yet one section of this society is prominent in killing young black males.kingstongraham said:
Nope. Just think a few steps further about your new main concern. What causes that? Why is that the case?coopster_the_1st said:kingstongraham said:
Your reply means you didn't understand my post.coopster_the_1st said:
Your response is exactly the problem I am highlighting as you are deflecting and refusing to acknowledge the biggest issue that would immediately save large numbers of young black male lives.kingstongraham said:
I think you need to keep going a bit deeper to find the root of the problem you are starting to get at here.coopster_the_1st said:No sane person disagrees with the statement 'Black Lives Matter' in the same way no sane person disagrees with the statement 'All Lives Matter' or 'White Lives Matter'.
However it is obvious that the BLM movement really means 'Black Lives Matters unless is it Black on Black violence'. They are completely silent on Black on Black crime because that is the root of the issue here but BLM will sweep any suggestion of this under the carpet.0 -
I think your answer is that it is 100% socioeconomics, but if that is the case, why are so many dentists from an Indian background? Culture plays a part too. To clarify not a culture of committing crime.rick_chasey said:
Re stop and search, I think we can all agree fullfact is more sensible that most, so here is what they say on it: https://fullfact.org/crime/does-stop-search-work/DeVlaeminck said:rick_chasey said:
As contrarian in chief I fully can see why you would find this appealing.TheBigBean said:
I don't think his position on Brexit is relevant.rick_chasey said:
He's very similar to the person appointed to lead the investigation into racial discrimination in the UK; a black person who doesn't believe the issue is real.TheBigBean said:
This is a very well written and interesting article. Thanks for posting.blazing_saddles said:Definitely not to be read by Rick, but it's black author has offered copy of his pay-walled article that appeared yesterday.
http://futurecities.org.uk/2020/06/23/which-lives-matter/
On a muggy night in August 2016, three laughing Dallas police officers pinned 32-year-old Tony Timpa to the ground, pushed his face into the grass, placed a knee on his back and held him there for fourteen minutes until he was dead. The parallels with the appalling murder of George Floyd are disturbing and uncanny. Like Floyd, Timpa pleaded for his life. Like Floyd, Timpa repeatedly called for help and begged for the policemen to stop. Like Floyd, Timpa was unarmed. And like Floyd, the death was filmed. But both cases do differ in one significant way; Tony Timpa – unlike me – was white.......
It is quite an extensive piece, so feel free to read on.
It's a technique that has been used over the years.
He's written a tonne of fringe articles saying "i'm not racist, since i'm black, but here's something incredibly racist".
Will come as no surprise he was a Brexit Party candidate.
He fully excepts racism exists.
I would have thought you would agree with a lot of what he has written. Especially on the subject of white saviours.
His eloquence makes it an easy read.
Is his view racist? Quite possibly.
And for the record, the group think is not that the U.K. has a systemic racism problem or an institutionally racist problem; else we’d be a lot further down the road to solving it.
I object to the zero sum attitude of a lot of the “well what about white working class” comments as if it’s either/or.
The stats he uses re deaths is almost a trope on the right by now. They miss the more obvious stats around how the police treat people differently (stop & search 12x more likely etc) and offers no reason why murder rates might be so much higher in one community than another; this is often done on the far right to imply that indeed one race is innately more murderous than another.
The guy reminds me of this excellent article on Kanye West: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/05/im-not-black-im-kanye/559763/
its a bit more lyrical and it’s about MJ and Kanye and the writer spends a lot of time saying how awful Trump is as well as discussing his own experience of fame, but the premise is they both try to find their own saviour by leaving their black idendity however they can because the weight of all that history, that cultural baggage holds them, the ridiculously successful in this instance, back.
He feels the same. He wants his failed bid to be an MP to be about his ability to run an election campaign and not about his race; he wants, to take that Atlantic article view, to have the freedom white people have for his race to be a non-issue.
He wants to disassociate himself and the community from the weight and ties of history.
He’s literally using the same arguments white supremacists use to say that those things don’t matter.
If that’s the case, than what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
And to be honest, no argument about this can really be had unless that final question is properly answered by everyone contributing.
Nobody (here) has argued that black social disadvantage or being over represented in some forms of criminality is down to innate characteristics.
That aside - take stop and search - The Voice has on several occasions called for more stop and search to protect young black youth from being stabbed - one editorial described objections as white liberal middle class hand wringing. I'm not saying that more stop and search is right - I'm not an expert on policing and knife crime - but it's hard to just write it off as racism when people who are long time anti racism campaigners and black call for more of it.
Ike Ijeh isn't denying racism he's just objecting to amplifying the effects of racism. He's not saying he is free of the effects of racism he's just saying he's more free of it than some of the rhetoric around BLM would have you believe. He's saying things like stop and search are not simple racist policing - they are an institutional response to high levels of black (often black on black) street crime.
I'm not saying he's denying racism.
What are your thoughts about this:what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived in the UK? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
0 -
In terms of the gangs, I think it's a subculture that has been imported, at least in part, from the US of A:DeVlaeminck said:
Well I don't know if black people are more likely to be criminals - I know they are over represented in crime statistics for some types of crime. I don't have any evidence that skin colour is linked to character (in this case propensity to commit crime) through genetics and as I would want that not to be the case I'm happy to assume it isn't until proven otherwise. I'm assuming you agree with me so far?rick_chasey said:
Re stop and search, I think we can all agree fullfact is more sensible that most, so here is what they say on it: https://fullfact.org/crime/does-stop-search-work/DeVlaeminck said:rick_chasey said:
As contrarian in chief I fully can see why you would find this appealing.TheBigBean said:
I don't think his position on Brexit is relevant.rick_chasey said:
He's very similar to the person appointed to lead the investigation into racial discrimination in the UK; a black person who doesn't believe the issue is real.TheBigBean said:
This is a very well written and interesting article. Thanks for posting.blazing_saddles said:Definitely not to be read by Rick, but it's black author has offered copy of his pay-walled article that appeared yesterday.
http://futurecities.org.uk/2020/06/23/which-lives-matter/
On a muggy night in August 2016, three laughing Dallas police officers pinned 32-year-old Tony Timpa to the ground, pushed his face into the grass, placed a knee on his back and held him there for fourteen minutes until he was dead. The parallels with the appalling murder of George Floyd are disturbing and uncanny. Like Floyd, Timpa pleaded for his life. Like Floyd, Timpa repeatedly called for help and begged for the policemen to stop. Like Floyd, Timpa was unarmed. And like Floyd, the death was filmed. But both cases do differ in one significant way; Tony Timpa – unlike me – was white.......
It is quite an extensive piece, so feel free to read on.
It's a technique that has been used over the years.
He's written a tonne of fringe articles saying "i'm not racist, since i'm black, but here's something incredibly racist".
Will come as no surprise he was a Brexit Party candidate.
He fully excepts racism exists.
I would have thought you would agree with a lot of what he has written. Especially on the subject of white saviours.
His eloquence makes it an easy read.
Is his view racist? Quite possibly.
And for the record, the group think is not that the U.K. has a systemic racism problem or an institutionally racist problem; else we’d be a lot further down the road to solving it.
I object to the zero sum attitude of a lot of the “well what about white working class” comments as if it’s either/or.
The stats he uses re deaths is almost a trope on the right by now. They miss the more obvious stats around how the police treat people differently (stop & search 12x more likely etc) and offers no reason why murder rates might be so much higher in one community than another; this is often done on the far right to imply that indeed one race is innately more murderous than another.
The guy reminds me of this excellent article on Kanye West: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/05/im-not-black-im-kanye/559763/
its a bit more lyrical and it’s about MJ and Kanye and the writer spends a lot of time saying how awful Trump is as well as discussing his own experience of fame, but the premise is they both try to find their own saviour by leaving their black idendity however they can because the weight of all that history, that cultural baggage holds them, the ridiculously successful in this instance, back.
He feels the same. He wants his failed bid to be an MP to be about his ability to run an election campaign and not about his race; he wants, to take that Atlantic article view, to have the freedom white people have for his race to be a non-issue.
He wants to disassociate himself and the community from the weight and ties of history.
He’s literally using the same arguments white supremacists use to say that those things don’t matter.
If that’s the case, than what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
And to be honest, no argument about this can really be had unless that final question is properly answered by everyone contributing.
Nobody (here) has argued that black social disadvantage or being over represented in some forms of criminality is down to innate characteristics.
That aside - take stop and search - The Voice has on several occasions called for more stop and search to protect young black youth from being stabbed - one editorial described objections as white liberal middle class hand wringing. I'm not saying that more stop and search is right - I'm not an expert on policing and knife crime - but it's hard to just write it off as racism when people who are long time anti racism campaigners and black call for more of it.
Ike Ijeh isn't denying racism he's just objecting to amplifying the effects of racism. He's not saying he is free of the effects of racism he's just saying he's more free of it than some of the rhetoric around BLM would have you believe. He's saying things like stop and search are not simple racist policing - they are an institutional response to high levels of black (often black on black) street crime.
I'm not saying he's denying racism.
What are your thoughts about this:what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived in the UK? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
So why is there a correlation between being black and certain types of crime in the UK ? I'm not claiming expertise but it appears to me to be largely down to socio economic deprivation and geographic location - poor inner cities tend to be where street crime takes place. It seems likely there are subcultures which develop in some communities which normalise some crime. So Glasgow in the 60s - the classic Glasgow Gang Observed - where in some groups of young people gang violence using knives was normalised leading to almost a culture of carrying a blade . That would contrast say with working class youth in Derbyshire towns at the time - my father in law was a doorman (bouncer) at clubs in mining towns at the same time and he describes fights as a nightly occurrence but knives as unheard of. It seems to me that some of the gang culture in London has normalised crime - and through things like drill music you have that negative culture appealing disproportionately to black youth. Not because they are black any more than Glasgow youth carried blades because they were white.
I'm not denying racism is also a factor and I'm not denying historical racism as playing a part - maybe a big part - in creating the situation we are in now. But there are also poor white people - there are predominantly white areas where it is easy to get pulled into street crime or hard to move up the social ladder. For me it's more a problem of social deprivation and culture - with race laid over the top of that - than something where race is at the root of it.
This country does seem to stand at the front of any queue to adopt so many of their lifestyle trends."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Those reasons are out there but affect people of all skin colours.kingstongraham said:
And... Why is that the case? What do you think causes that?coopster_the_1st said:
That applies to all skin colours in society so is a societal issue not a race one, yet one section of this society is prominent in killing young black males.kingstongraham said:
Nope. Just think a few steps further about your new main concern. What causes that? Why is that the case?coopster_the_1st said:kingstongraham said:
Your reply means you didn't understand my post.coopster_the_1st said:
Your response is exactly the problem I am highlighting as you are deflecting and refusing to acknowledge the biggest issue that would immediately save large numbers of young black male lives.kingstongraham said:
I think you need to keep going a bit deeper to find the root of the problem you are starting to get at here.coopster_the_1st said:No sane person disagrees with the statement 'Black Lives Matter' in the same way no sane person disagrees with the statement 'All Lives Matter' or 'White Lives Matter'.
However it is obvious that the BLM movement really means 'Black Lives Matters unless is it Black on Black violence'. They are completely silent on Black on Black crime because that is the root of the issue here but BLM will sweep any suggestion of this under the carpet.
BLM could focus on sections of black music culture and make a big positive difference to the lives on young black males. Why are the elephants in the room constantly being ignored?0 -
Gangs long predate the discovery of America, but yes we may have reimported some cultural elements.blazing_saddles said:
In terms of the gangs, I think it's a subculture that has been imported, at least in part, from the US of A:DeVlaeminck said:
Well I don't know if black people are more likely to be criminals - I know they are over represented in crime statistics for some types of crime. I don't have any evidence that skin colour is linked to character (in this case propensity to commit crime) through genetics and as I would want that not to be the case I'm happy to assume it isn't until proven otherwise. I'm assuming you agree with me so far?rick_chasey said:
Re stop and search, I think we can all agree fullfact is more sensible that most, so here is what they say on it: https://fullfact.org/crime/does-stop-search-work/DeVlaeminck said:rick_chasey said:
As contrarian in chief I fully can see why you would find this appealing.TheBigBean said:
I don't think his position on Brexit is relevant.rick_chasey said:
He's very similar to the person appointed to lead the investigation into racial discrimination in the UK; a black person who doesn't believe the issue is real.TheBigBean said:
This is a very well written and interesting article. Thanks for posting.blazing_saddles said:Definitely not to be read by Rick, but it's black author has offered copy of his pay-walled article that appeared yesterday.
http://futurecities.org.uk/2020/06/23/which-lives-matter/
On a muggy night in August 2016, three laughing Dallas police officers pinned 32-year-old Tony Timpa to the ground, pushed his face into the grass, placed a knee on his back and held him there for fourteen minutes until he was dead. The parallels with the appalling murder of George Floyd are disturbing and uncanny. Like Floyd, Timpa pleaded for his life. Like Floyd, Timpa repeatedly called for help and begged for the policemen to stop. Like Floyd, Timpa was unarmed. And like Floyd, the death was filmed. But both cases do differ in one significant way; Tony Timpa – unlike me – was white.......
It is quite an extensive piece, so feel free to read on.
It's a technique that has been used over the years.
He's written a tonne of fringe articles saying "i'm not racist, since i'm black, but here's something incredibly racist".
Will come as no surprise he was a Brexit Party candidate.
He fully excepts racism exists.
I would have thought you would agree with a lot of what he has written. Especially on the subject of white saviours.
His eloquence makes it an easy read.
Is his view racist? Quite possibly.
And for the record, the group think is not that the U.K. has a systemic racism problem or an institutionally racist problem; else we’d be a lot further down the road to solving it.
I object to the zero sum attitude of a lot of the “well what about white working class” comments as if it’s either/or.
The stats he uses re deaths is almost a trope on the right by now. They miss the more obvious stats around how the police treat people differently (stop & search 12x more likely etc) and offers no reason why murder rates might be so much higher in one community than another; this is often done on the far right to imply that indeed one race is innately more murderous than another.
The guy reminds me of this excellent article on Kanye West: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/05/im-not-black-im-kanye/559763/
its a bit more lyrical and it’s about MJ and Kanye and the writer spends a lot of time saying how awful Trump is as well as discussing his own experience of fame, but the premise is they both try to find their own saviour by leaving their black idendity however they can because the weight of all that history, that cultural baggage holds them, the ridiculously successful in this instance, back.
He feels the same. He wants his failed bid to be an MP to be about his ability to run an election campaign and not about his race; he wants, to take that Atlantic article view, to have the freedom white people have for his race to be a non-issue.
He wants to disassociate himself and the community from the weight and ties of history.
He’s literally using the same arguments white supremacists use to say that those things don’t matter.
If that’s the case, than what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
And to be honest, no argument about this can really be had unless that final question is properly answered by everyone contributing.
Nobody (here) has argued that black social disadvantage or being over represented in some forms of criminality is down to innate characteristics.
That aside - take stop and search - The Voice has on several occasions called for more stop and search to protect young black youth from being stabbed - one editorial described objections as white liberal middle class hand wringing. I'm not saying that more stop and search is right - I'm not an expert on policing and knife crime - but it's hard to just write it off as racism when people who are long time anti racism campaigners and black call for more of it.
Ike Ijeh isn't denying racism he's just objecting to amplifying the effects of racism. He's not saying he is free of the effects of racism he's just saying he's more free of it than some of the rhetoric around BLM would have you believe. He's saying things like stop and search are not simple racist policing - they are an institutional response to high levels of black (often black on black) street crime.
I'm not saying he's denying racism.
What are your thoughts about this:what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived in the UK? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
So why is there a correlation between being black and certain types of crime in the UK ? I'm not claiming expertise but it appears to me to be largely down to socio economic deprivation and geographic location - poor inner cities tend to be where street crime takes place. It seems likely there are subcultures which develop in some communities which normalise some crime. So Glasgow in the 60s - the classic Glasgow Gang Observed - where in some groups of young people gang violence using knives was normalised leading to almost a culture of carrying a blade . That would contrast say with working class youth in Derbyshire towns at the time - my father in law was a doorman (bouncer) at clubs in mining towns at the same time and he describes fights as a nightly occurrence but knives as unheard of. It seems to me that some of the gang culture in London has normalised crime - and through things like drill music you have that negative culture appealing disproportionately to black youth. Not because they are black any more than Glasgow youth carried blades because they were white.
I'm not denying racism is also a factor and I'm not denying historical racism as playing a part - maybe a big part - in creating the situation we are in now. But there are also poor white people - there are predominantly white areas where it is easy to get pulled into street crime or hard to move up the social ladder. For me it's more a problem of social deprivation and culture - with race laid over the top of that - than something where race is at the root of it.
This country does seem to stand at the front of any queue to adopt so many of their lifestyle trends.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
So those reasons that are out there but affect people of all skin colours - what are they?coopster_the_1st said:
Those reasons are out there but affect people of all skin colours.kingstongraham said:
And... Why is that the case? What do you think causes that?coopster_the_1st said:
That applies to all skin colours in society so is a societal issue not a race one, yet one section of this society is prominent in killing young black males.kingstongraham said:
Nope. Just think a few steps further about your new main concern. What causes that? Why is that the case?coopster_the_1st said:kingstongraham said:
Your reply means you didn't understand my post.coopster_the_1st said:
Your response is exactly the problem I am highlighting as you are deflecting and refusing to acknowledge the biggest issue that would immediately save large numbers of young black male lives.kingstongraham said:
I think you need to keep going a bit deeper to find the root of the problem you are starting to get at here.coopster_the_1st said:No sane person disagrees with the statement 'Black Lives Matter' in the same way no sane person disagrees with the statement 'All Lives Matter' or 'White Lives Matter'.
However it is obvious that the BLM movement really means 'Black Lives Matters unless is it Black on Black violence'. They are completely silent on Black on Black crime because that is the root of the issue here but BLM will sweep any suggestion of this under the carpet.
BLM could focus on sections of black music culture and make a big positive difference to the lives on young black males. Why are the elephants in the room constantly being ignored?0 -
- Lack of male parent in the household/life of the childkingstongraham said:
So those reasons that are out there but affect people of all skin colours - what are they?coopster_the_1st said:
Those reasons are out there but affect people of all skin colours.kingstongraham said:
And... Why is that the case? What do you think causes that?coopster_the_1st said:
That applies to all skin colours in society so is a societal issue not a race one, yet one section of this society is prominent in killing young black males.kingstongraham said:
Nope. Just think a few steps further about your new main concern. What causes that? Why is that the case?coopster_the_1st said:kingstongraham said:
Your reply means you didn't understand my post.coopster_the_1st said:
Your response is exactly the problem I am highlighting as you are deflecting and refusing to acknowledge the biggest issue that would immediately save large numbers of young black male lives.kingstongraham said:
I think you need to keep going a bit deeper to find the root of the problem you are starting to get at here.coopster_the_1st said:No sane person disagrees with the statement 'Black Lives Matter' in the same way no sane person disagrees with the statement 'All Lives Matter' or 'White Lives Matter'.
However it is obvious that the BLM movement really means 'Black Lives Matters unless is it Black on Black violence'. They are completely silent on Black on Black crime because that is the root of the issue here but BLM will sweep any suggestion of this under the carpet.
BLM could focus on sections of black music culture and make a big positive difference to the lives on young black males. Why are the elephants in the room constantly being ignored?
- Lack of respect for education
- Lack of respect for authority (linked to the above two)
- Thinking a better life is automatically given to you without putting in the hard work
- Males generally don't work as hard as females0 -
It's not 100% socioeconomics, but I do think it is 0% genes.TheBigBean said:
I think your answer is that it is 100% socioeconomics, but if that is the case, why are so many dentists from an Indian background? Culture plays a part too. To clarify not a culture of committing crime.rick_chasey said:
Re stop and search, I think we can all agree fullfact is more sensible that most, so here is what they say on it: https://fullfact.org/crime/does-stop-search-work/DeVlaeminck said:rick_chasey said:
As contrarian in chief I fully can see why you would find this appealing.TheBigBean said:
I don't think his position on Brexit is relevant.rick_chasey said:
He's very similar to the person appointed to lead the investigation into racial discrimination in the UK; a black person who doesn't believe the issue is real.TheBigBean said:
This is a very well written and interesting article. Thanks for posting.blazing_saddles said:Definitely not to be read by Rick, but it's black author has offered copy of his pay-walled article that appeared yesterday.
http://futurecities.org.uk/2020/06/23/which-lives-matter/
On a muggy night in August 2016, three laughing Dallas police officers pinned 32-year-old Tony Timpa to the ground, pushed his face into the grass, placed a knee on his back and held him there for fourteen minutes until he was dead. The parallels with the appalling murder of George Floyd are disturbing and uncanny. Like Floyd, Timpa pleaded for his life. Like Floyd, Timpa repeatedly called for help and begged for the policemen to stop. Like Floyd, Timpa was unarmed. And like Floyd, the death was filmed. But both cases do differ in one significant way; Tony Timpa – unlike me – was white.......
It is quite an extensive piece, so feel free to read on.
It's a technique that has been used over the years.
He's written a tonne of fringe articles saying "i'm not racist, since i'm black, but here's something incredibly racist".
Will come as no surprise he was a Brexit Party candidate.
He fully excepts racism exists.
I would have thought you would agree with a lot of what he has written. Especially on the subject of white saviours.
His eloquence makes it an easy read.
Is his view racist? Quite possibly.
And for the record, the group think is not that the U.K. has a systemic racism problem or an institutionally racist problem; else we’d be a lot further down the road to solving it.
I object to the zero sum attitude of a lot of the “well what about white working class” comments as if it’s either/or.
The stats he uses re deaths is almost a trope on the right by now. They miss the more obvious stats around how the police treat people differently (stop & search 12x more likely etc) and offers no reason why murder rates might be so much higher in one community than another; this is often done on the far right to imply that indeed one race is innately more murderous than another.
The guy reminds me of this excellent article on Kanye West: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/05/im-not-black-im-kanye/559763/
its a bit more lyrical and it’s about MJ and Kanye and the writer spends a lot of time saying how awful Trump is as well as discussing his own experience of fame, but the premise is they both try to find their own saviour by leaving their black idendity however they can because the weight of all that history, that cultural baggage holds them, the ridiculously successful in this instance, back.
He feels the same. He wants his failed bid to be an MP to be about his ability to run an election campaign and not about his race; he wants, to take that Atlantic article view, to have the freedom white people have for his race to be a non-issue.
He wants to disassociate himself and the community from the weight and ties of history.
He’s literally using the same arguments white supremacists use to say that those things don’t matter.
If that’s the case, than what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
And to be honest, no argument about this can really be had unless that final question is properly answered by everyone contributing.
Nobody (here) has argued that black social disadvantage or being over represented in some forms of criminality is down to innate characteristics.
That aside - take stop and search - The Voice has on several occasions called for more stop and search to protect young black youth from being stabbed - one editorial described objections as white liberal middle class hand wringing. I'm not saying that more stop and search is right - I'm not an expert on policing and knife crime - but it's hard to just write it off as racism when people who are long time anti racism campaigners and black call for more of it.
Ike Ijeh isn't denying racism he's just objecting to amplifying the effects of racism. He's not saying he is free of the effects of racism he's just saying he's more free of it than some of the rhetoric around BLM would have you believe. He's saying things like stop and search are not simple racist policing - they are an institutional response to high levels of black (often black on black) street crime.
I'm not saying he's denying racism.
What are your thoughts about this:what makes black people more likely to be criminals and more likely to be deprived in the UK? Because I am categorical that the answer isn’t to do with black innate characteristics. So if it’s not that, it *must* surely be the environment?
To break down the entire problem would be deeply deeply complicated as the whole thing is a syncretic process and I'm not sure it would achieve much even if it was possible.
I do think however to address the problem you must first recognise there is one.
It is fair to say that until all different races and other minorities are more evenly represented in all spheres, whether that be socioeconomic strata, different professions etc etc, then it isn't really solved.
I think it is fair to say that the current approach does not address these issues.
The debate on how to do that, if done on those terms, I think would be really constructive.
At the moment, you have one side who recognise the issue and are proposing a potential solution, and the other, rather than evaluating that solution, insists the problem doesn't exist.
What that means is, in instances where the side who see problems have influence, their solutions go unchecked, which also leads to ineffective solutions.
Occasionally we see some debate around quotas for example: Boards should, for example, have a minimum number of women or other minorities. What I find frustrating about the debates around that, is that it's not about the merits of ways to improve board diversity (despite the empirical evidence that diverse boards, all other things being equal, perform better than those that are not), and instead about why diversity should even be considered "as long as the best person gets the job".
In that instance, rather like you wouldn't want a football team of only strikers, the "best person for the job" omits that, as a collective, the board does better with people with different backgrounds, thought processes, cultural touchpoints, etc etc.
In the same way diversity often produces better collective outcomes, there is, ironically, a lack of diversity in terms of parts of society trying to find solutions to this.0 -
https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer
This is why it's so much more than just 'socioeconomic'.
It's deeply embedded in everything.0 -
I am laughing at all the covid doom mongers that were heavily on on the risk averse side criticising police for not waiting to come to harm when approaching people they think are suspects with intelligence that they are armed with knives. The consistency on this forum is pretty special.0
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This is Arsenal's team. Scroll through and do some racial analysis. What do you notice? Yes, it is only a sample size of one, but I would guess it is fairly typical.rick_chasey said:https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer
This is why it's so much more than just 'socioeconomic'.
It's deeply embedded in everything.
https://www.arsenal.com/men/players
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OK what are you driving at here? The guy goes through the methodology and what the control is.TheBigBean said:
This is Arsenal's team. Scroll through and do some racial analysis. What do you notice? Yes, it is only a sample size of one, but I would guess it is fairly typical.rick_chasey said:https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer
This is why it's so much more than just 'socioeconomic'.
It's deeply embedded in everything.
https://www.arsenal.com/men/players0 -
I must be missing some posts on my computer.john80 said:I am laughing at all the covid doom mongers that were heavily on on the risk averse side criticising police for not waiting to come to harm when approaching people they think are suspects with intelligence that they are armed with knives. The consistency on this forum is pretty special.
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5 of Arsenal's six forwards are black. All of their goalkeepers and defenders are white. Commentary by position varies. Therefore commentary on Arsenal could be perceived to be racist.rick_chasey said:
OK what are you driving at here? The guy goes through the methodology and what the control is.TheBigBean said:
This is Arsenal's team. Scroll through and do some racial analysis. What do you notice? Yes, it is only a sample size of one, but I would guess it is fairly typical.rick_chasey said:https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer
This is why it's so much more than just 'socioeconomic'.
It's deeply embedded in everything.
https://www.arsenal.com/men/players
It would have been very interesting to do this across the whole premier league, and the look at why different positions have different racial representations.
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