Edward Colston/Trans rights/Stamp collecting

fenix

It's amazing to think that the statue could still be up in 2020.

I'm glad it's gone now - absolutely indefensible to have a statue telling us what a great man a slave trader is.

And as a side note Olusoga's a House in Time is a fascinating if sometimes uncomfortable watch.

blazing_saddles

nickice said:

If you want to get rid of a statue you do it by democratic means. Or you can form a mob and people will find excuses for you.

Apparently you can't, as according to the unusually neutral BBC, it looks likely that prosecutions will follow.

rjsterry

fenix said:

It's amazing to think that the statue could still be up in 2020.

I'm glad it's gone now - absolutely indefensible to have a statue telling us what a great man a slave trader is.

And as a side note Olusoga's a House in Time is a fascinating if sometimes uncomfortable watch.

AHIT is excellent. The first episode set out how deeply embedded the slave trade is in the development of the city. The street was named after the bit of Africa where they picked up the slaves. The house was built with money from the slave trade. The first two or three families to live in it were involved in the slave trade. The second episode covering the Bristol Riots and the Chartists was also very relevant.

blazing_saddles

rick_chasey said:

Darius_Jedburgh said:

You cannot judge the actions of people in history by the standards of today.

You can learn from their mistakes but what is done is done

Amazing.

What is the point of history if it's not the contemporary view of the past?

History is not the same as the past.

If it wasn't for this country's history, London wouldn't be the world’s financial capital, so a few on here wouldn't be in the comfy positions they are today.

You aren't talking about a contemporary view of our past, you want it eradicated.
The methods you condone are random acts of vandalism.
The overdue removal of Colston's statue is one thing, but I find acts such as burning the Cenotaph's Union Jack abhorrent and offensive.

rick_chasey

blazing_saddles said:

rick_chasey said:

Darius_Jedburgh said:

You cannot judge the actions of people in history by the standards of today.

You can learn from their mistakes but what is done is done

Amazing.

What is the point of history if it's not the contemporary view of the past?

History is not the same as the past.

If it wasn't for this country's history, London wouldn't be the world’s financial capital, so a few on here wouldn't be in the comfy positions they are today.

You aren't talking about a contemporary view of our past, you want it eradicated.
The methods you condone are random acts of vandalism.
The overdue removal of Colston's statue is one thing, but I find acts such as burning the Cenotaph's Union Jack abhorrent and offensive.

OK mate. Go look up what history actually is and come back to me.

What gave you the impression I want 'history' eradicated? I love history.

Anyway, I've said earlier I don't condone the vandalism. It's like you just dream up what you think I think and then argue about that.

tailwindhome

Glad we have none of this in NI

coopster_the_1st

#Blacklivesmatter

Black man attacks female doctor - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52594325

London Violence - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ce73e14rlz3t/london-violence

nickice

blazing_saddles said:

nickice said:

If you want to get rid of a statue you do it by democratic means. Or you can form a mob and people will find excuses for you.

Apparently you can't, as according to the unusually neutral BBC, it looks likely that prosecutions will follow.

I'd be rather surprised if anyone were prosecuted but you never know.

pangolin

coopster_the_1st said:

#Blacklivesmatter

Black man attacks female doctor - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52594325

London Violence - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ce73e14rlz3t/london-violence

Sorry what?

rjsterry

tailwindhome said:

Glad we have none of this in NI

Someone tweeted yesterday about whether anyone could imagine statues of Cromwell and Victoria being pulled down and it was pointed out that these had been taken down in Ireland.
Bearing in mind Cromwell's remains were dug up hanged beheaded and the head displayed on a spike, maybe Colston got off lightly.

rick_chasey

rjsterry said:

tailwindhome said:

Glad we have none of this in NI

Someone tweeted yesterday about whether anyone could imagine statues of Cromwell and Victoria being pulled down and it was pointed out that these had been taken down in Ireland.
Bearing in mind Cromwell's remains were dug up hanged beheaded and the head displayed on a spike, maybe Colston got off lightly.

So there's a new Cromwell exhibition in Ely, right by the cathedral.

Doesn't mention Ireland once.

I mean, come on.

blazing_saddles

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

tailwindhome said:

Glad we have none of this in NI

Someone tweeted yesterday about whether anyone could imagine statues of Cromwell and Victoria being pulled down and it was pointed out that these had been taken down in Ireland.
Bearing in mind Cromwell's remains were dug up hanged beheaded and the head displayed on a spike, maybe Colston got off lightly.

So there's a new Cromwell exhibition in Ely, right by the cathedral.

Doesn't mention Ireland once.

I mean, come on.

Well there you go.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

tailwindhome said:

Glad we have none of this in NI

Someone tweeted yesterday about whether anyone could imagine statues of Cromwell and Victoria being pulled down and it was pointed out that these had been taken down in Ireland.
Bearing in mind Cromwell's remains were dug up hanged beheaded and the head displayed on a spike, maybe Colston got off lightly.

I was wondering if the Golden Hind was in danger.

coopster_the_1st

pangolin said:

coopster_the_1st said:

#Blacklivesmatter

Black man attacks female doctor - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52594325

London Violence - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ce73e14rlz3t/london-violence

Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?

Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really

rick_chasey

Just to be clear, folk who are upset by the vandalism.

Which bothers you more, that a statue of the UK's biggest slave trader is still up, or the vandalism of said statue?

rjsterry

coopster_the_1st said:

pangolin said:

coopster_the_1st said:

#Blacklivesmatter

Black man attacks female doctor - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52594325

London Violence - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ce73e14rlz3t/london-violence

Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?

Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really

This is not a thread about BLM or related conspiracy theories.

coopster_the_1st

rjsterry said:

coopster_the_1st said:

pangolin said:

coopster_the_1st said:

#Blacklivesmatter

Black man attacks female doctor - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52594325

London Violence - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ce73e14rlz3t/london-violence

Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?

Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really

This is not a thread about BLM or related conspiracy theories.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant

pangolin

coopster_the_1st said:

pangolin said:

coopster_the_1st said:

#Blacklivesmatter

Black man attacks female doctor - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52594325

London Violence - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ce73e14rlz3t/london-violence

Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?

Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really

Don't make up quotes

coopster_the_1st

pangolin said:

coopster_the_1st said:

pangolin said:

coopster_the_1st said:

#Blacklivesmatter

Black man attacks female doctor - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52594325

London Violence - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ce73e14rlz3t/london-violence

Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?

Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really

Don't make up quotes, because I don't want to see the reality

Tough!

It's your problem if the truth makes you uncomfortable

pangolin

coopster_the_1st said:

pangolin said:

coopster_the_1st said:

pangolin said:

coopster_the_1st said:

#Blacklivesmatter

Black man attacks female doctor - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52594325

London Violence - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ce73e14rlz3t/london-violence

Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?

Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really

Don't make up quotes, because I don't want to see the reality

Tough!

It's your problem if the truth makes you uncomfortable

If you're going to pretend I'm saying things I'm not at least pretend I've spelt it right

As RJS says, this isn't a thread about BLM.

rjsterry

coopster_the_1st said:

rjsterry said:

coopster_the_1st said:

pangolin said:

coopster_the_1st said:

#Blacklivesmatter

Black man attacks female doctor - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52594325

London Violence - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/ce73e14rlz3t/london-violence

Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?

Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really

This is not a thread about BLM or related conspiracy theories.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant

Feel free to start another thread if you can't add constructively to this one.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

Just to be clear, folk who are upset by the vandalism.

Which bothers you more, that a statue of the UK's biggest slave trader is still up, or the vandalism of said statue?

I think mob justice bothers me more than anything that is on display..

john80

DeVlaeminck said:

It's probably better it doesn't go back up, maybe stick it in a local museum with some other stuff related to local history.

I don't think it's totally clear cut and I can understand the existence of the statue causing upset as I can understand the tearing down of a local landmark causing upset.

Thing is you can erect another statue of something else and let's be honest so many well loved buildings are pulled down in the name of profit it's hard to make the case this statue is of huge importance that something else relating to Bristol's history couldn't replace it.

The trouble with these things is you can often find a reason why someone isn't deserving of a statue. I mean trafficking slaves is a pretty big reason but you get objections made to statues of Churchill, there's an ongoing debate about whether Thatcher should be remembered with a statue, if it turns out when the papers are released properly that Martin Luther King did indeed encourage a rape should his memorials be torn down?

Personally I'd rather they put up art work rather than statues of the great and the good in the first place.

I am sure whatever art work you put up someone can vandalise whilst citing some historical reasoning. Van Gogh might well have been either an early hallucinogenic drug user and created an entire industry. One eared mad man whose paintings should definitely be burnt.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

tailwindhome said:

Glad we have none of this in NI

Someone tweeted yesterday about whether anyone could imagine statues of Cromwell and Victoria being pulled down and it was pointed out that these had been taken down in Ireland.
Bearing in mind Cromwell's remains were dug up hanged beheaded and the head displayed on a spike, maybe Colston got off lightly.

I was wondering if the Golden Hind was in danger.

Yes, Drake is a 'ahem' multifaceted character. Not sure he's quite in Colston's league for numbers killed. Anyway, my point wasn't so much how awful Colston was, but that it's not just an awful thing that happened long ago, but the more general recognition that Bristol - and no doubt other places - benefitted hugely and are still benefitting from the profits of slavery.

nickice

rick_chasey said:

Just to be clear, folk who are upset by the vandalism.

Which bothers you more, that a statue of the UK's biggest slave trader is still up, or the vandalism of said statue?

Using a word like vandalism really doesn't do justice to the scenes I watched on the news.

rjsterry

john80 said:

DeVlaeminck said:

It's probably better it doesn't go back up, maybe stick it in a local museum with some other stuff related to local history.

I don't think it's totally clear cut and I can understand the existence of the statue causing upset as I can understand the tearing down of a local landmark causing upset.

Thing is you can erect another statue of something else and let's be honest so many well loved buildings are pulled down in the name of profit it's hard to make the case this statue is of huge importance that something else relating to Bristol's history couldn't replace it.

The trouble with these things is you can often find a reason why someone isn't deserving of a statue. I mean trafficking slaves is a pretty big reason but you get objections made to statues of Churchill, there's an ongoing debate about whether Thatcher should be remembered with a statue, if it turns out when the papers are released properly that Martin Luther King did indeed encourage a rape should his memorials be torn down?

Personally I'd rather they put up art work rather than statues of the great and the good in the first place.

I am sure whatever art work you put up someone can vandalise whilst citing some historical reasoning. Van Gogh might well have been either an early hallucinogenic drug user and created an entire industry. One eared mad man whose paintings should definitely be burnt.

The Colston statue was straightforward commemoration of someone who gave a lot of money to the city. It wasn't anything to do with art or great sculpture.

nickice

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Just to be clear, folk who are upset by the vandalism.

Which bothers you more, that a statue of the UK's biggest slave trader is still up, or the vandalism of said statue?

I think mob justice bothers me more than anything that is on display..

I suppose if the plaque said something like 'he was a slave trader and that makes him a great man' I might come close to disagreeing with you.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

tailwindhome said:

Glad we have none of this in NI

Someone tweeted yesterday about whether anyone could imagine statues of Cromwell and Victoria being pulled down and it was pointed out that these had been taken down in Ireland.
Bearing in mind Cromwell's remains were dug up hanged beheaded and the head displayed on a spike, maybe Colston got off lightly.

I was wondering if the Golden Hind was in danger.

Yes, Drake is a 'ahem' multifaceted character. Not sure he's quite in Colston's league for numbers killed. Anyway, my point wasn't so much how awful Colston was, but that it's not just an awful thing that happened long ago, but the more general recognition that Bristol - and no doubt other places - benefitted hugely and are still benefitting from the profits of slavery.

Yes, I agree, and I think that Bristol has not done well in acknowledging its past hence my earlier suggestion.

On the death count, I think a lot of the privateers had some fairly high scores when they sacked towns. Sir Francis also traded slaves.

nickice

rjsterry said:

john80 said:

DeVlaeminck said:

It's probably better it doesn't go back up, maybe stick it in a local museum with some other stuff related to local history.

I don't think it's totally clear cut and I can understand the existence of the statue causing upset as I can understand the tearing down of a local landmark causing upset.

Thing is you can erect another statue of something else and let's be honest so many well loved buildings are pulled down in the name of profit it's hard to make the case this statue is of huge importance that something else relating to Bristol's history couldn't replace it.

The trouble with these things is you can often find a reason why someone isn't deserving of a statue. I mean trafficking slaves is a pretty big reason but you get objections made to statues of Churchill, there's an ongoing debate about whether Thatcher should be remembered with a statue, if it turns out when the papers are released properly that Martin Luther King did indeed encourage a rape should his memorials be torn down?

Personally I'd rather they put up art work rather than statues of the great and the good in the first place.

I am sure whatever art work you put up someone can vandalise whilst citing some historical reasoning. Van Gogh might well have been either an early hallucinogenic drug user and created an entire industry. One eared mad man whose paintings should definitely be burnt.

The Colston statue was straightforward commemoration of someone who gave a lot of money to the city. It wasn't anything to do with art or great sculpture.

Where do we draw the line? There are a lot of statues of basically horrible people who did horrible things.

kingstongraham

coopster_the_1st said:

#Blacklivesmatter

Nice quote.