Edward Colston/Trans rights/Stamp collecting

rjsterry

Too much of a leap to suggest that that superintendent knew the history of policing large protests in Bristol?

blazing_saddles

tailwindhome said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

To follow on from the past is not history comment on another thread, it's worth remembering that this statue wasn't put up till long after the guy was dead to begin with.

Exactly. With a load of guff about how wise and virtuous he was inscribed below. The statue was put up in the 1890s when maritime Bristol was very much past its peak, so there's a strong whiff of looking back to some imagined 'good old days'. Revisionism is nothing new.

As someone else commented - statues are put up to rewrite history

rick_chasey

nickice

I was thinking about this today: At some point, it's not inconceivable that there will be a statue of George Floyd. Obviously, it will be to represent someone brutally killed by the police rather than the person himself (who, by most accounts, wasn't a good guy). I'd be interested to know where protesters against statues of flawed historical figures would stand on that.

pangolin

nickice said:

I was thinking about this today: At some point, it's not inconceivable that there will be a statue of George Floyd. Obviously, it will be to represent someone brutally killed by the police rather than the person himself (who, by most accounts, wasn't a good guy). I'd be interested to know where protesters against statues of flawed historical figures would stand on that.

Do you have any examples of statues like that which actually exist?

rjsterry

Views of what is acceptable change, and will continue to change. Not that long ago Victorian buildings were seen as unwanted relics and pulled down and now many are treasured. If some future generation pulls down this hypothetical statue we won't be around to care.

nickice

pangolin said:

nickice said:

I was thinking about this today: At some point, it's not inconceivable that there will be a statue of George Floyd. Obviously, it will be to represent someone brutally killed by the police rather than the person himself (who, by most accounts, wasn't a good guy). I'd be interested to know where protesters against statues of flawed historical figures would stand on that.

Do you have any examples of statues like that which actually exist?

There is a monument to Michael Brown in a St Louis museum. I'm sure there are more.

surrey_commuter

pangolin said:

nickice said:

I was thinking about this today: At some point, it's not inconceivable that there will be a statue of George Floyd. Obviously, it will be to represent someone brutally killed by the police rather than the person himself (who, by most accounts, wasn't a good guy). I'd be interested to know where protesters against statues of flawed historical figures would stand on that.

Do you have any examples of statues like that which actually exist?

Nelson Mandela?

pangolin

nickice said:

pangolin said:

nickice said:

I was thinking about this today: At some point, it's not inconceivable that there will be a statue of George Floyd. Obviously, it will be to represent someone brutally killed by the police rather than the person himself (who, by most accounts, wasn't a good guy). I'd be interested to know where protesters against statues of flawed historical figures would stand on that.

Do you have any examples of statues like that which actually exist?

There is a monument to Michael Brown in a St Louis museum. I'm sure there are more.

Well a museum is where most poeple thought the Colston statue should have been, with some context explaining the history, rather than in the middle of town with a plaque saying he was one of the most virtuous and wise people of Bristol

nickice

pangolin said:

nickice said:

pangolin said:

nickice said:

I was thinking about this today: At some point, it's not inconceivable that there will be a statue of George Floyd. Obviously, it will be to represent someone brutally killed by the police rather than the person himself (who, by most accounts, wasn't a good guy). I'd be interested to know where protesters against statues of flawed historical figures would stand on that.

Do you have any examples of statues like that which actually exist?

There is a monument to Michael Brown in a St Louis museum. I'm sure there are more.

Well a museum is where most poeple thought the Colston statue should have been, with some context explaining the history, rather than in the middle of town with a plaque saying he was one of the most virtuous and wise people of Bristol

So how do you think people would react now if they built a new statue of Edward Colston and put it in a museum because that would be analogous.

rjsterry

You seem to be ignoring the point that the statue was set up long after his death and deliberately portrayed a semi-fictional vaguely heroic version of Colston, a bit like all those Victorian statues of Alfred the Great.

surrey_commuter

what does everybody think about the schools that he endowed with his ill gotten gains.

Dropping his name seems like an easy cop out. Surely liquidating them (and similar establishments) and sending the money as reparations somewhere would be appropriate?

nickice

rjsterry said:

You seem to be ignoring the point that the statue was set up long after his death and deliberately portrayed a semi-fictional vaguely heroic version of Colston, a bit like all those Victorian statues of Alfred the Great.

I'm not ignoring it. Do you think people would have accepted it if it was just a statue with his name and nothing else? The point I'm making is that people should be careful what they wish for.

Jeremy.89

surrey_commuter said:

what does everybody think about the schools that he endowed with his ill gotten gains.

Dropping his name seems like an easy cop out. Surely liquidating them (and similar establishments) and sending the money as reparations somewhere would be appropriate?

Is there a time limit for reparations?

Spending energy trying to improve modern attitudes would seem more worthwhile than trying to work out how reparations would be distributed justly.

"I'm sorry a copper stopped you on a bike ride caus he thought he smelt weed on your breath, here's a tenner" feels like both an attempt to wash over someone's experience of racism, and also an act that would really rub the right wingers up the wrong way. *

*not that I'm necessarily against the later.

nickice

surrey_commuter said:

what does everybody think about the schools that he endowed with his ill gotten gains.

Dropping his name seems like an easy cop out. Surely liquidating them (and similar establishments) and sending the money as reparations somewhere would be appropriate?

I mean there are a great deal of trade policies that could be changed before I'd advocate reparations.

TheBigBean

pangolin said:

nickice said:

pangolin said:

nickice said:

I was thinking about this today: At some point, it's not inconceivable that there will be a statue of George Floyd. Obviously, it will be to represent someone brutally killed by the police rather than the person himself (who, by most accounts, wasn't a good guy). I'd be interested to know where protesters against statues of flawed historical figures would stand on that.

Do you have any examples of statues like that which actually exist?

There is a monument to Michael Brown in a St Louis museum. I'm sure there are more.

Well a museum is where most poeple thought the Colston statue should have been, with some context explaining the history, rather than in the middle of town with a plaque saying he was one of the most virtuous and wise people of Bristol

In 1895. Also in 1895, Oscar Wilde was sentenced to two years' hard labour for gross indecency. There isn't a statue commemorating that though.

surrey_commuter

Jeremy.89 said:

surrey_commuter said:

what does everybody think about the schools that he endowed with his ill gotten gains.

Dropping his name seems like an easy cop out. Surely liquidating them (and similar establishments) and sending the money as reparations somewhere would be appropriate?

Is there a time limit for reparations?

Spending energy trying to improve modern attitudes would seem more worthwhile than trying to work out how reparations would be distributed justly.

"I'm sorry a copper stopped you on a bike ride caus he thought he smelt weed on your breath, here's a tenner" feels like both an attempt to wash over someone's experience of racism, and also an act that would really rub the right wingers up the wrong way. *

*not that I'm necessarily against the later.

no time limit on voluntarily doing the right thing. Close down everything funded from the slave trade and let the trustees distribute the funds

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

Jeremy.89 said:

surrey_commuter said:

what does everybody think about the schools that he endowed with his ill gotten gains.

Dropping his name seems like an easy cop out. Surely liquidating them (and similar establishments) and sending the money as reparations somewhere would be appropriate?

Is there a time limit for reparations?

Spending energy trying to improve modern attitudes would seem more worthwhile than trying to work out how reparations would be distributed justly.

"I'm sorry a copper stopped you on a bike ride caus he thought he smelt weed on your breath, here's a tenner" feels like both an attempt to wash over someone's experience of racism, and also an act that would really rub the right wingers up the wrong way. *

*not that I'm necessarily against the later.

no time limit on voluntarily doing the right thing. Close down everything funded from the slave trade and let the trustees distribute the funds

Wouldn't it be more sensible, rather than shutting down a school (is the issue here not quite evenly split on generational lines, reflecting perhaps the difference in education compared to before?) to incorporate the issue into the education.

I would have thought making the school a leading light in how to examine Britain's colonial past in mainstream education would be more appropriate.

To give a colonial example, just because thousands of slaves died in forced labour building a train track, doesn't mean you shouldn't use the train track anymore, no?

pangolin

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

Jeremy.89 said:

surrey_commuter said:

what does everybody think about the schools that he endowed with his ill gotten gains.

Dropping his name seems like an easy cop out. Surely liquidating them (and similar establishments) and sending the money as reparations somewhere would be appropriate?

Is there a time limit for reparations?

Spending energy trying to improve modern attitudes would seem more worthwhile than trying to work out how reparations would be distributed justly.

"I'm sorry a copper stopped you on a bike ride caus he thought he smelt weed on your breath, here's a tenner" feels like both an attempt to wash over someone's experience of racism, and also an act that would really rub the right wingers up the wrong way. *

*not that I'm necessarily against the later.

no time limit on voluntarily doing the right thing. Close down everything funded from the slave trade and let the trustees distribute the funds

Wouldn't it be more sensible, rather than shutting down a school (is the issue here not quite evenly split on generational lines, reflecting perhaps the difference in education compared to before?) to incorporate the issue into the education.

I would have thought making the school a leading light in how to examine Britain's colonial past in mainstream education would be more appropriate.

To give a colonial example, just because thousands of slaves died in forced labour building a train track, doesn't mean you shouldn't use the train track anymore, no?

Mayor of London agrees education is the way to go

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52977088

"He said pupils needed to be educated about famous figures "warts and all" and that "nobody was perfect", including the likes of Churchill, Gandhi and Malcolm X."

pangolin

nickice said:

rjsterry said:

You seem to be ignoring the point that the statue was set up long after his death and deliberately portrayed a semi-fictional vaguely heroic version of Colston, a bit like all those Victorian statues of Alfred the Great.

I'm not ignoring it. Do you think people would have accepted it if it was just a statue with his name and nothing else? The point I'm making is that people should be careful what they wish for.

I think people would have been a lot more likely to accept it if it had told both sides of the story.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

Jeremy.89 said:

surrey_commuter said:

what does everybody think about the schools that he endowed with his ill gotten gains.

Dropping his name seems like an easy cop out. Surely liquidating them (and similar establishments) and sending the money as reparations somewhere would be appropriate?

Is there a time limit for reparations?

Spending energy trying to improve modern attitudes would seem more worthwhile than trying to work out how reparations would be distributed justly.

"I'm sorry a copper stopped you on a bike ride caus he thought he smelt weed on your breath, here's a tenner" feels like both an attempt to wash over someone's experience of racism, and also an act that would really rub the right wingers up the wrong way. *

*not that I'm necessarily against the later.

no time limit on voluntarily doing the right thing. Close down everything funded from the slave trade and let the trustees distribute the funds

Wouldn't it be more sensible, rather than shutting down a school (is the issue here not quite evenly split on generational lines, reflecting perhaps the difference in education compared to before?) to incorporate the issue into the education.

I would have thought making the school a leading light in how to examine Britain's colonial past in mainstream education would be more appropriate.

To give a colonial example, just because thousands of slaves died in forced labour building a train track, doesn't mean you shouldn't use the train track anymore, no?

seems shutting down a school is not as easy as pulling down a statue. Personally I would find it easy to find a better use for wealth earned from slavery.

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

Jeremy.89 said:

surrey_commuter said:

what does everybody think about the schools that he endowed with his ill gotten gains.

Dropping his name seems like an easy cop out. Surely liquidating them (and similar establishments) and sending the money as reparations somewhere would be appropriate?

Is there a time limit for reparations?

Spending energy trying to improve modern attitudes would seem more worthwhile than trying to work out how reparations would be distributed justly.

"I'm sorry a copper stopped you on a bike ride caus he thought he smelt weed on your breath, here's a tenner" feels like both an attempt to wash over someone's experience of racism, and also an act that would really rub the right wingers up the wrong way. *

*not that I'm necessarily against the later.

no time limit on voluntarily doing the right thing. Close down everything funded from the slave trade and let the trustees distribute the funds

Wouldn't it be more sensible, rather than shutting down a school (is the issue here not quite evenly split on generational lines, reflecting perhaps the difference in education compared to before?) to incorporate the issue into the education.

I would have thought making the school a leading light in how to examine Britain's colonial past in mainstream education would be more appropriate.

To give a colonial example, just because thousands of slaves died in forced labour building a train track, doesn't mean you shouldn't use the train track anymore, no?

seems shutting down a school is not as easy as pulling down a statue. Personally I would find it easy to find a better use for wealth earned from slavery.

How much of your net wealth are you offering up for the slavery redistribution fund?

rick_chasey

rick_chasey said:

If you think Colston is a can of worms, wait till you check out the debate in Belgium about king Leopold II statues...

We'll it's properly kicked off there with multiple *large* statues of the guy being burned and/or torn down.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

If you think Colston is a can of worms, wait till you check out the debate in Belgium about king Leopold II statues...

We'll it's properly kicked off there with multiple *large* statues of the guy being burned and/or torn down.

His museum used to be a bit odd in that it had no mention of any trouble he might have caused in Africa.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

If you think Colston is a can of worms, wait till you check out the debate in Belgium about king Leopold II statues...

We'll it's properly kicked off there with multiple *large* statues of the guy being burned and/or torn down.

His museum used to be a bit odd in that it had no mention of any trouble he might have caused in Africa.

It is is in the same ballpark as the holocaust in terms of overall numbers of death and quantity of suffering. Obviously not quite as fast, but it's really very very bad.

DeVlaeminck

pangolin said:

nickice said:

I was thinking about this today: At some point, it's not inconceivable that there will be a statue of George Floyd. Obviously, it will be to represent someone brutally killed by the police rather than the person himself (who, by most accounts, wasn't a good guy). I'd be interested to know where protesters against statues of flawed historical figures would stand on that.

Do you have any examples of statues like that which actually exist?

Martin Luther King is a possible, if you accept the FBI intelligence from the time that he was present at and encouraged a rape.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

If you think Colston is a can of worms, wait till you check out the debate in Belgium about king Leopold II statues...

We'll it's properly kicked off there with multiple *large* statues of the guy being burned and/or torn down.

His museum used to be a bit odd in that it had no mention of any trouble he might have caused in Africa.

It is is in the same ballpark as the holocaust in terms of overall numbers of death and quantity of suffering. Obviously not quite as fast, but it's really very very bad.

Can the British schools teach that the Belgiums were worse?

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

If you think Colston is a can of worms, wait till you check out the debate in Belgium about king Leopold II statues...

We'll it's properly kicked off there with multiple *large* statues of the guy being burned and/or torn down.

His museum used to be a bit odd in that it had no mention of any trouble he might have caused in Africa.

It is is in the same ballpark as the holocaust in terms of overall numbers of death and quantity of suffering. Obviously not quite as fast, but it's really very very bad.

Can the British schools teach that the Belgiums were worse?

Ahaha, I literally wrote my dissertation on the British colonialists take on the Congo colonial experience, given they firmly believed that it was Europeans on a civilising mission to tame the 'savages', yet it was and still is one of the worst ever atrocities ever committed in history.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

rick_chasey said:

If you think Colston is a can of worms, wait till you check out the debate in Belgium about king Leopold II statues...

We'll it's properly kicked off there with multiple *large* statues of the guy being burned and/or torn down.

His museum used to be a bit odd in that it had no mention of any trouble he might have caused in Africa.

It is is in the same ballpark as the holocaust in terms of overall numbers of death and quantity of suffering. Obviously not quite as fast, but it's really very very bad.

Can the British schools teach that the Belgiums were worse?

Ahaha, I literally wrote my dissertation on the British colonialists take on the Congo colonial experience, given they firmly believed that it was Europeans on a civilising mission to tame the 'savages', yet it was and still is one of the worst ever atrocities ever committed in history.

You've expressed your view on this a few times. I might even go as far to say it is a hobby horse.

rick_chasey

Honestly, I am quite blown away they're doing it.

Might have to make myself a drink to celebrate tonight.

Remarkable. Honestly, never thought in my lifetime they'd get rid of statues of the guy.