Forum home Road cycling forum The cake stop

Edward Colston/Trans rights/Stamp collecting

2456758

Posts

  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,437
    It's amazing to think that the statue could still be up in 2020.

    I'm glad it's gone now - absolutely indefensible to have a statue telling us what a great man a slave trader is.

    And as a side note Olusoga's a House in Time is a fascinating if sometimes uncomfortable watch.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,217
    nickice said:

    If you want to get rid of a statue you do it by democratic means. Or you can form a mob and people will find excuses for you.

    Apparently you can't, as according to the unusually neutral BBC, it looks likely that prosecutions will follow.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,769
    fenix said:

    It's amazing to think that the statue could still be up in 2020.

    I'm glad it's gone now - absolutely indefensible to have a statue telling us what a great man a slave trader is.

    And as a side note Olusoga's a House in Time is a fascinating if sometimes uncomfortable watch.

    AHIT is excellent. The first episode set out how deeply embedded the slave trade is in the development of the city. The street was named after the bit of Africa where they picked up the slaves. The house was built with money from the slave trade. The first two or three families to live in it were involved in the slave trade. The second episode covering the Bristol Riots and the Chartists was also very relevant.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,217

    You cannot judge the actions of people in history by the standards of today.

    You can learn from their mistakes but what is done is done

    Amazing.

    What is the point of history if it's not the contemporary view of the past?

    History is not the same as the past.
    If it wasn't for this country's history, London wouldn't be the world’s financial capital, so a few on here wouldn't be in the comfy positions they are today.

    You aren't talking about a contemporary view of our past, you want it eradicated.
    The methods you condone are random acts of vandalism.
    The overdue removal of Colston's statue is one thing, but I find acts such as burning the Cenotaph's Union Jack abhorrent and offensive.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,401 Lives Here

    You cannot judge the actions of people in history by the standards of today.

    You can learn from their mistakes but what is done is done

    Amazing.

    What is the point of history if it's not the contemporary view of the past?

    History is not the same as the past.
    If it wasn't for this country's history, London wouldn't be the world’s financial capital, so a few on here wouldn't be in the comfy positions they are today.

    You aren't talking about a contemporary view of our past, you want it eradicated.
    The methods you condone are random acts of vandalism.
    The overdue removal of Colston's statue is one thing, but I find acts such as burning the Cenotaph's Union Jack abhorrent and offensive.
    OK mate. Go look up what history actually is and come back to me.

    What gave you the impression I want 'history' eradicated? I love history.

    Anyway, I've said earlier I don't condone the vandalism. It's like you just dream up what you think I think and then argue about that.
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,674
    Glad we have none of this in NI
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439

    nickice said:

    If you want to get rid of a statue you do it by democratic means. Or you can form a mob and people will find excuses for you.

    Apparently you can't, as according to the unusually neutral BBC, it looks likely that prosecutions will follow.
    I'd be rather surprised if anyone were prosecuted but you never know.
  • pangolinpangolin Posts: 3,970
    Sorry what?
    Genesis Croix de Fer
    Cube Attain
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,769

    Glad we have none of this in NI

    Someone tweeted yesterday about whether anyone could imagine statues of Cromwell and Victoria being pulled down and it was pointed out that these had been taken down in Ireland.
    Bearing in mind Cromwell's remains were dug up hanged beheaded and the head displayed on a spike, maybe Colston got off lightly.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,401 Lives Here
    rjsterry said:

    Glad we have none of this in NI

    Someone tweeted yesterday about whether anyone could imagine statues of Cromwell and Victoria being pulled down and it was pointed out that these had been taken down in Ireland.
    Bearing in mind Cromwell's remains were dug up hanged beheaded and the head displayed on a spike, maybe Colston got off lightly.
    So there's a new Cromwell exhibition in Ely, right by the cathedral.

    Doesn't mention Ireland once.

    I mean, come on.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,217

    rjsterry said:

    Glad we have none of this in NI

    Someone tweeted yesterday about whether anyone could imagine statues of Cromwell and Victoria being pulled down and it was pointed out that these had been taken down in Ireland.
    Bearing in mind Cromwell's remains were dug up hanged beheaded and the head displayed on a spike, maybe Colston got off lightly.
    So there's a new Cromwell exhibition in Ely, right by the cathedral.

    Doesn't mention Ireland once.

    I mean, come on.
    Well there you go.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,076
    rjsterry said:

    Glad we have none of this in NI

    Someone tweeted yesterday about whether anyone could imagine statues of Cromwell and Victoria being pulled down and it was pointed out that these had been taken down in Ireland.
    Bearing in mind Cromwell's remains were dug up hanged beheaded and the head displayed on a spike, maybe Colston got off lightly.
    I was wondering if the Golden Hind was in danger.
  • pangolin said:

    Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?
    Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,401 Lives Here
    Just to be clear, folk who are upset by the vandalism.

    Which bothers you more, that a statue of the UK's biggest slave trader is still up, or the vandalism of said statue?
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,769

    pangolin said:

    Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?
    Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really
    This is not a thread about BLM or related conspiracy theories.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rjsterry said:

    pangolin said:

    Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?
    Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really
    This is not a thread about BLM or related conspiracy theories.
    Sunlight is the best disinfectant
  • pangolinpangolin Posts: 3,970

    pangolin said:

    Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?
    Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really
    Don't make up quotes
    Genesis Croix de Fer
    Cube Attain
  • coopster_the_1stcoopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    edited June 2020
    pangolin said:

    pangolin said:

    Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?
    Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really
    Don't make up quotes, because I don't want to see the reality
    Tough!

    It's your problem if the truth makes you uncomfortable
  • pangolinpangolin Posts: 3,970
    edited June 2020

    pangolin said:

    pangolin said:

    Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?
    Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really
    Don't make up quotes, because I don't want to see the reality
    Tough!

    It's your problem if the truth makes you uncomfortable
    If you're going to pretend I'm saying things I'm not at least pretend I've spelt it right

    As RJS says, this isn't a thread about BLM.
    Genesis Croix de Fer
    Cube Attain
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,769

    rjsterry said:

    pangolin said:

    Sorry what, are you saying BLM are hypocrits?
    Yes, it's the hypocrisy of BLM, which is really an anti-capitalist leftie anarchist movement, that black lives don't matter if they are killed by another black man. Ironic really
    This is not a thread about BLM or related conspiracy theories.
    Sunlight is the best disinfectant
    Feel free to start another thread if you can't add constructively to this one.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,076

    Just to be clear, folk who are upset by the vandalism.

    Which bothers you more, that a statue of the UK's biggest slave trader is still up, or the vandalism of said statue?

    I think mob justice bothers me more than anything that is on display..

  • john80john80 Posts: 2,425

    It's probably better it doesn't go back up, maybe stick it in a local museum with some other stuff related to local history.

    I don't think it's totally clear cut and I can understand the existence of the statue causing upset as I can understand the tearing down of a local landmark causing upset.

    Thing is you can erect another statue of something else and let's be honest so many well loved buildings are pulled down in the name of profit it's hard to make the case this statue is of huge importance that something else relating to Bristol's history couldn't replace it.

    The trouble with these things is you can often find a reason why someone isn't deserving of a statue. I mean trafficking slaves is a pretty big reason but you get objections made to statues of Churchill, there's an ongoing debate about whether Thatcher should be remembered with a statue, if it turns out when the papers are released properly that Martin Luther King did indeed encourage a rape should his memorials be torn down?

    Personally I'd rather they put up art work rather than statues of the great and the good in the first place.

    I am sure whatever art work you put up someone can vandalise whilst citing some historical reasoning. Van Gogh might well have been either an early hallucinogenic drug user and created an entire industry. One eared mad man whose paintings should definitely be burnt.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,769

    rjsterry said:

    Glad we have none of this in NI

    Someone tweeted yesterday about whether anyone could imagine statues of Cromwell and Victoria being pulled down and it was pointed out that these had been taken down in Ireland.
    Bearing in mind Cromwell's remains were dug up hanged beheaded and the head displayed on a spike, maybe Colston got off lightly.
    I was wondering if the Golden Hind was in danger.
    Yes, Drake is a 'ahem' multifaceted character. Not sure he's quite in Colston's league for numbers killed. Anyway, my point wasn't so much how awful Colston was, but that it's not just an awful thing that happened long ago, but the more general recognition that Bristol - and no doubt other places - benefitted hugely and are still benefitting from the profits of slavery.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439

    Just to be clear, folk who are upset by the vandalism.

    Which bothers you more, that a statue of the UK's biggest slave trader is still up, or the vandalism of said statue?

    Using a word like vandalism really doesn't do justice to the scenes I watched on the news.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,769
    john80 said:

    It's probably better it doesn't go back up, maybe stick it in a local museum with some other stuff related to local history.

    I don't think it's totally clear cut and I can understand the existence of the statue causing upset as I can understand the tearing down of a local landmark causing upset.

    Thing is you can erect another statue of something else and let's be honest so many well loved buildings are pulled down in the name of profit it's hard to make the case this statue is of huge importance that something else relating to Bristol's history couldn't replace it.

    The trouble with these things is you can often find a reason why someone isn't deserving of a statue. I mean trafficking slaves is a pretty big reason but you get objections made to statues of Churchill, there's an ongoing debate about whether Thatcher should be remembered with a statue, if it turns out when the papers are released properly that Martin Luther King did indeed encourage a rape should his memorials be torn down?

    Personally I'd rather they put up art work rather than statues of the great and the good in the first place.

    I am sure whatever art work you put up someone can vandalise whilst citing some historical reasoning. Van Gogh might well have been either an early hallucinogenic drug user and created an entire industry. One eared mad man whose paintings should definitely be burnt.
    The Colston statue was straightforward commemoration of someone who gave a lot of money to the city. It wasn't anything to do with art or great sculpture.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439

    Just to be clear, folk who are upset by the vandalism.

    Which bothers you more, that a statue of the UK's biggest slave trader is still up, or the vandalism of said statue?

    I think mob justice bothers me more than anything that is on display..

    I suppose if the plaque said something like 'he was a slave trader and that makes him a great man' I might come close to disagreeing with you.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,076
    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    Glad we have none of this in NI

    Someone tweeted yesterday about whether anyone could imagine statues of Cromwell and Victoria being pulled down and it was pointed out that these had been taken down in Ireland.
    Bearing in mind Cromwell's remains were dug up hanged beheaded and the head displayed on a spike, maybe Colston got off lightly.
    I was wondering if the Golden Hind was in danger.
    Yes, Drake is a 'ahem' multifaceted character. Not sure he's quite in Colston's league for numbers killed. Anyway, my point wasn't so much how awful Colston was, but that it's not just an awful thing that happened long ago, but the more general recognition that Bristol - and no doubt other places - benefitted hugely and are still benefitting from the profits of slavery.
    Yes, I agree, and I think that Bristol has not done well in acknowledging its past hence my earlier suggestion.

    On the death count, I think a lot of the privateers had some fairly high scores when they sacked towns. Sir Francis also traded slaves.
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439
    rjsterry said:

    john80 said:

    It's probably better it doesn't go back up, maybe stick it in a local museum with some other stuff related to local history.

    I don't think it's totally clear cut and I can understand the existence of the statue causing upset as I can understand the tearing down of a local landmark causing upset.

    Thing is you can erect another statue of something else and let's be honest so many well loved buildings are pulled down in the name of profit it's hard to make the case this statue is of huge importance that something else relating to Bristol's history couldn't replace it.

    The trouble with these things is you can often find a reason why someone isn't deserving of a statue. I mean trafficking slaves is a pretty big reason but you get objections made to statues of Churchill, there's an ongoing debate about whether Thatcher should be remembered with a statue, if it turns out when the papers are released properly that Martin Luther King did indeed encourage a rape should his memorials be torn down?

    Personally I'd rather they put up art work rather than statues of the great and the good in the first place.

    I am sure whatever art work you put up someone can vandalise whilst citing some historical reasoning. Van Gogh might well have been either an early hallucinogenic drug user and created an entire industry. One eared mad man whose paintings should definitely be burnt.
    The Colston statue was straightforward commemoration of someone who gave a lot of money to the city. It wasn't anything to do with art or great sculpture.
    Where do we draw the line? There are a lot of statues of basically horrible people who did horrible things.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 17,790

    #Blacklivesmatter

    Nice quote.
Sign In or Register to comment.