Trek Emonda 2021

ibr17xvii · July 2020

ugo.santalucia said:
That doesn't change things one bit. Manufacturers have decided to cater for heavier riders with deep pockets... if you weigh 63 kg, you could have probably got away with a lighter bike than the one you just invested 8 grand on, but you have to comply with the fat boys market.

In 2005 I bought an 8 kg bike from a major manufacturer for a grand, now the equivalent money (whatever that is ) doesn't buy you the same... it buys you something with disc brakes that weighs close to 9 kg, even if new technology means it would probably be possible to sell a 7 kg bike for that money

"fat boys market"?!?!?

That's pretty offensive in all honesty.

zest28 · July 2020

He is a joke. This is a pro machine for world tour riders that can ride at 400+ Watts.

A 6.8kg climbing bike that is aero also is quite possibly the best climbing bike in the world that we will see in the Tour de France this year.

yellowv2 · July 2020

zest28 said:
He is a joke. This is a pro machine for world tour riders that can ride at 400+ Watts.

A 6.8kg climbing bike that is aero also is quite possibly the best climbing bike in the world that we will see in the Tour de France this year.

So you keep saying. It is quoted as 7.8kg claimed by the manufacturers!

zest28 · July 2020

yellowv2 said:

zest28 said:
He is a joke. This is a pro machine for world tour riders that can ride at 400+ Watts.

A 6.8kg climbing bike that is aero also is quite possibly the best climbing bike in the world that we will see in the Tour de France this year.

So you keep saying. It is quoted as 7.8kg claimed by the manufacturers!

No it is not. Check the SLR 9 which is their targeted design.

They were targeting the design of the Trek Emonda 2021 to be right at the UCI weight limit, meaning that is was designed for racing in mind, rather than some “fat blokes”.

It is now also more aero so Trek designed it for strong riders, again hinting it is designed for racing.

This is a bike for guys like Richie Porte who will most likely win a few races with this bike.

yellowv2 · July 2020

No the 2021 SL6 disc pro is actually listed as 8.13kg which I believe is the bike being referred to here. The SL9 may well be 6.8 kg but it's also north of 9 grand!
Who in their right mind would pay that for a Trek??

zest28 · July 2020

Doesn't matter. I was pointing out to the comment that this bike was designed for fat people.

And Trek did not design and optimize the Emonda 2021 around the SL 6 Pro with mechanical ultegra, entry level carbon wheels, low-grade carbon (you need SLR) and it doesn't even have the integrated aero cockpit which is huge for the Emonda 2021. It is clearly designed and optimised around the SLR 9 (and this is clearly not a bike for fat people, but for elite racers).

People who are super passionate about climbing and have the legs will get this bike ( I know someone who owns an Emonda SLR 9 but an old version and he is no joke. He has a FTP of 5W/kg). And pro riders will get the SLR 9 (probably for free) also.

ugo.santalucia · July 2020

I am sure the 9 grand version is as light as the UCI allows. I also remember when the Emonda was the frame of choice to build a Hill Climb bike, because you could easily go under 6kg without getting a mortgage for it. Dan Evans's bike of choice I seem to remember (can't remember on top of my head his FTP, but I can check it out if you want).
Seemingly now that is no longer possible, because they no longer offer a rim brake version of it and the "more affordable" setup is just too heavy to start with.
This specimen is 5.1kg and probably quite pricey altogether, but 6kg was achievable for reasonable money

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/how-joe-norledge-built-his-5-1kg-hill-climb-bike/

The all talk about your mates having a 5 W/kg FTP is just a distraction, which does not make up for the fact that it's a pity Trek no longer offer a lighter rim braked version of it, basically because it caters for a market that thinks that more powerful brakes are needed.. hence a heavier market

ibr17xvii · July 2020

So what you're basically saying is that bike manufacturers want to move away from rim in favour of disc to cater for (your phrase) "the fat boys market"?!?!

ugo.santalucia · July 2020

ibr17xvii said:
So what you're basically saying is that bike manufacturers want to move away from rim in favour of disc to cater for (your phrase) "the fat boys market"?!?!

yes...

ibr17xvii · July 2020

ugo.santalucia said:

ibr17xvii said:
So what you're basically saying is that bike manufacturers want to move away from rim in favour of disc to cater for (your phrase) "the fat boys market"?!?!
yes...

Wow.

ugo.santalucia · July 2020

you disagree?

If you weigh 60-70 kg you don't need discs, you'd rather have a lighter bike. If you weigh 80-90 kg, then you might prefer stronger brakes, because you won't benefit much from a lighter bike

ibr17xvii · July 2020

ugo.santalucia said:
you disagree?

If you weigh 60-70 kg you don't need discs, you'd rather have a lighter bike. If you weigh 80-90 kg, then you might prefer stronger brakes, because you won't benefit much from a lighter bike

I'm not even gonna start a debate with you about it as what you're saying is at best preposterous & at worst highly offensive.

ugo.santalucia · July 2020

If the word fat offends you, then we can use bigger riders? It wasn't meant to be used offensively, with my friends we always refer to each other as being "fat" and "old"...

ibr17xvii · July 2020

ugo.santalucia said:
If the word fat offends you, then we can use bigger riders? It wasn't meant to be used offensively, with my friends we always refer to each other as being "fat" and "old"...

It doesn't particularly offend me but it certainly will others. It's unacceptable & a poor choice of phrase IMHO.

Just because it's how you & your friends talk doesn't make it right.

Ben6899 · July 2020

At the end of the day, you'd spend all that Emonda SLR6/9/whatever money on something custom.

Wouldn't you?

zest28 · July 2020

ugo.santalucia said:
I am sure the 9 grand version is as light as the UCI allows. I also remember when the Emonda was the frame of choice to build a Hill Climb bike, because you could easily go under 6kg without getting a mortgage for it. Dan Evans's bike of choice I seem to remember (can't remember on top of my head his FTP, but I can check it out if you want).
Seemingly now that is no longer possible, because they no longer offer a rim brake version of it and the "more affordable" setup is just too heavy to start with.
This specimen is 5.1kg and probably quite pricey altogether, but 6kg was achievable for reasonable money

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/how-joe-norledge-built-his-5-1kg-hill-climb-bike/

The all talk about your mates having a 5 W/kg FTP is just a distraction, which does not make up for the fact that it's a pity Trek no longer offer a lighter rim braked version of it, basically because it caters for a market that thinks that more powerful brakes are needed.. hence a heavier market

Disc brakes are there because rim brakes are terrible due to:
1. Wears out expensive carbon wheels
2. It is dangerous with carbon wheels as there have been accidents with carbon wheels blowing up due to excessive heating on the rim
3. Disc brakes allow bigger wheels. You can see disc brake bikes being able to run up to 30mm even.

It has nothing to do with weight of the riders.

The Trek Emonda is race bike for the world tour, so they optimize the Emonda for winning races like Tour De France, not some local hill climb race.

If you want a cheap lightweight bike, there are plenty of cheap options available.

Alot of the big names (i won’t say their names) manufacture there bikes in China. So why not get yourself a cheap and super light weight bike (which is not designed for world tour racing) from China? You can probably get yourself a 5kg bike on a very modest budget from china.

I am actually starting a project for a new winter bike based on Chinese carbon. But it will not be 5kg due to safety concerns.

ugo.santalucia · July 2020

zest28 said:

If you want a cheap lightweight bike, there are plenty of cheap options available.

Alot of the big names (i won’t say their names) manufacture there bikes in China. So why not get yourself a cheap and super light weight bike (which is not designed for world tour racing) from China? You can probably get yourself a 5kg bike on a very modest budget from china.

I am actually starting a project for a new winter bike based on Chinese carbon. But it will not be 5kg due to safety concerns.

SO, as you say, there aren't that many options at all. The only option is to take a punt on an import from China, hoping that all goes well, that I don't need to send it back, which would be an absolute nightmare.

I am not even talking about a 5 kg bike... all I ask for is to be able to buy a 7 kg bike with 105 or Ultegra for a couple of grand or thereabout without having to import from China or Germany or Greenland.... Ideally I would even be able to try it out in a shop... I don't really see all these options. In fact, I don't see any at all

yellowv2 · July 2020

All this nonsense about disc brakes is for one reason, to sell bikes as it’s the latest bit of tech that people can be sold on. There is nothing wrong with rim brakes.
However the major manufacturers want to control the market so they can keep selling bikes.
Facts are there is a new breed of cyclists with a large amount of disposable income and it is those who are being targeted by the manufacturers, at the expense of those who have more sense than money.

fenix · July 2020

I'm with yellow.

We need to be convinced that discs are the next improvement in road bikes or why else would we buy new bikes ?

I don't think it's a fat rider thing.

Let's not kid ourselves - there's no great leaps in tech on bikes now. Despite one bike model today claiming to be 6% faster than last year's bike. Perfect then. Ride that in the tour and a win is guaranteed.

My rim brakes are fine and it would be cheaper to buy new wheels rather than a whole new bike. Rim wear isn't a great excuse to buy a disc bike.

zest28 · July 2020

yellowv2 said:
All this nonsense about disc brakes is for one reason, to sell bikes as it’s the latest bit of tech that people can be sold on. There is nothing wrong with rim brakes.
However the major manufacturers want to control the market so they can keep selling bikes.
Facts are there is a new breed of cyclists with a large amount of disposable income and it is those who are being targeted by the manufacturers, at the expense of those who have more sense than money.

Disc brakes is for carbon wheels, there is something terribly wrong with rim brakes in combination carbon wheels. This is something real and not just some marketing as I know a guy who heavily crashed on a descent due to his carbon wheels blowing up. He was out for a few months.

But if you run carbon wheels and are willing to sacrifice your safety and your wallet (because your carbon wheels will wear out over time with rim brakes) just to save a couple of grams, then stick to rim brakes. Those couple of grams will not make faster btw, the difference is quite insignificant.

I will take the weight penalty knowning that my carbon wheels will be perfect forever and I have no concerns on descents. And I can also run up to 30mm tyres.

If disc brakes did not exist, I would definetly not ride carbon wheels for everyday use (maybe only for racing).

zest28 · July 2020

ugo.santalucia said:

zest28 said:

If you want a cheap lightweight bike, there are plenty of cheap options available.

Alot of the big names (i won’t say their names) manufacture there bikes in China. So why not get yourself a cheap and super light weight bike (which is not designed for world tour racing) from China? You can probably get yourself a 5kg bike on a very modest budget from china.

I am actually starting a project for a new winter bike based on Chinese carbon. But it will not be 5kg due to safety concerns.
SO, as you say, there aren't that many options at all. The only option is to take a punt on an import from China, hoping that all goes well, that I don't need to send it back, which would be an absolute nightmare.

I am not even talking about a 5 kg bike... all I ask for is to be able to buy a 7 kg bike with 105 or Ultegra for a couple of grand or thereabout without having to import from China or Germany or Greenland.... Ideally I would even be able to try it out in a shop... I don't really see all these options. In fact, I don't see any at all

For under $2000, you can buy a Canyon CF SL 7 that weighs 7.5kg which is light enough. The difference between 7.5kg and 7kg is really insignificant in terms of climbing speed, so just ride it and stop worrying about those numbers.

And you realize that most bikes on the market are from China but just with a brand sticker on it right? You just pay a huge premium just to have some logo on your bike.

You should know your size and I assume you also know your fit if you have done a bike fit before. So I see no risk in ordering a bike from China.

I honestly never had carbon fail on me, so I am willing to take the potential warranty headaches if something does happen due to the huge amount of money I will save with a China bike.

Ofcourse, I will look out for a reputable Chinese carbon manufacturer which also manufactures for the the big brands.

ugo.santalucia · July 2020

zest28 said:

Disc brakes is for carbon wheels, there is something terribly wrong with rim brakes in combination carbon wheels. This is something real and not just some marketing as I know a guy who heavily crashed on a descent due to his carbon wheels blowing up. He was out for a few months.

But if you run carbon wheels and are willing to sacrifice your safety and your wallet (because your carbon wheels will wear out over time with rim brakes) just to save a couple of grams, then stick to rim brakes. Those couple of grams will not make faster btw, the difference is quite insignificant.

I will take the weight penalty knowning that my carbon wheels will be perfect forever and I have no concerns on descents. And I can also run up to 30mm tyres.

If disc brakes did not exist, I would definetly not ride carbon wheels for everyday use (maybe only for racing).

They've spent a decade trying to convince us that the new breed of carbon rims were safe. It started with Reynolds around 2010... then they all adopted high Tg resins. If that's all lies, why should I then believe the new tech is not a big lie too?
The vast majority of carbon rim failures and delaminations were brandless imports from China, the ones that you endorse. You rarely hear about Zipp, Reynolds or Enve rims failing because of poor heat management and of course we have never seen that happening on TV either.

That said, the vast majority of cyclists I see around are still riding alloy wheels, so the argument for a switch to discs across the range is pretty weak there.

With respect to your other post, yes I know everything is made in China, but I am a consumer and not a distributor, I have no desire to buy direct from China and I have no desire to be convinced to do that either. Even more so at this time, when helping our own businesses is paramount.

Canyon is not a brand I trust very much, a couple of years back all you heard on forums was broken Canyon frames and 7.5 kg is not much of an upgrade from the 8 kg of my current.... 7.0kg would be an interesting starting point. The last sentence of this post has been removed as it does not meet our community guidelines.

mrb123 · July 2020

https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/bikes/road/race

Rose would be an option if you don't fancy Canyon. Their X-lite models are still available with rim brakes.

Just over 2k for the Four with Ultegra gets you sub 7kg.

3k for the Six model that is a claimed 6.4kg.

shortfall · July 2020

zest28 said:

yellowv2 said:
All this nonsense about disc brakes is for one reason, to sell bikes as it’s the latest bit of tech that people can be sold on. There is nothing wrong with rim brakes.
However the major manufacturers want to control the market so they can keep selling bikes.
Facts are there is a new breed of cyclists with a large amount of disposable income and it is those who are being targeted by the manufacturers, at the expense of those who have more sense than money.
Disc brakes is for carbon wheels, there is something terribly wrong with rim brakes in combination carbon wheels. This is something real and not just some marketing as I know a guy who heavily crashed on a descent due to his carbon wheels blowing up. He was out for a few months.

But if you run carbon wheels and are willing to sacrifice your safety and your wallet (because your carbon wheels will wear out over time with rim brakes) just to save a couple of grams, then stick to rim brakes. Those couple of grams will not make faster btw, the difference is quite insignificant.

I will take the weight penalty knowning that my carbon wheels will be perfect forever and I have no concerns on descents. And I can also run up to 30mm tyres.

If disc brakes did not exist, I would definetly not ride carbon wheels for everyday use (maybe only for racing).

So all of your concerns about dying horribly when your carbon rims delaminate could be put to one side in the interest of competing in a race? Not sure I'm following the logic on that one. Hopefully there's room for all tastes and the market will decide which direction things move in through supply and demand. I'm with the people who are worried about the Treks of this world moving us towards a situation where 5 and 10k bikes are considered normal though.

ugo.santalucia · July 2020

mrb123 said:
https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/bikes/road/race

Rose would be an option if you don't fancy Canyon. Their X-lite models are still available with rim brakes.

Just over 2k for the Four with Ultegra gets you sub 7kg.

3k for the Six model that is a claimed 6.4kg.

That's pretty tidy... I'd rather not buy from abroad, but at least Germany is not China (until December)

neeb · July 2020

What I'd like to know is, who is it in the UCI who's taking the bribes from the bike industry to keep the weight limit at 6.8kg..?

It goes without saying that there's no justification for this nowadays on the grounds on which it was introduced, i.e. the safety of lightweight components at that weight. The only thing that's making disc brake bikes a viable option for some pro teams (under pressure from their sponsors) is the lack of a weight penalty for the top end disc brake bikes that can now just manage to scrape in below the 6.8kg limit. If the limit was abolished, or reduced to 6kg, we would hardly see any riders on discs, which would put a serious spanner in the works of the bike industry's "fake news".

There are disturbing parallels between the way that disc brakes are marketed and the media tactics of right wing politics - most notably the repetition of completely false myths ad infinitum, and the seeming inability of much of the target audience to discriminate between fiction and reality, even when the facts are easily available.

For example:
- Myth: Rim wear on rim braked bikes is a serious problem that justifies disc brakes all by itself. Reality: Rims, whether carbon or alloy, will last thousands and thousands of miles before wearing out, unless they are used continuously in very wet or offroad conditions, or you weigh 100kg and live in the Alps. You are more likely to be replacing your wheels for other reasons.
- Myth: Carbon rim brake wheels are dangerously prone to delamination under heavy braking on descents. Reality: While this was an issue with some of the first generation of carbon wheels it now isn't at all with most modern wheels from reputable brands. Many carbon rim brake wheels have been tested and shown to be completely safe under braking loads far exceeding any that would ever occur.
- Myth: Advances in frame design now mean that disc brakes are more aero than rim brake bikes. Reality: Rim brakes are always more aero, all other things being equal. If you design a more aero frame and only put disc brakes on it, it might (just posisbly in some situations) be more aero than a less aero frame with rim brakes, but if you put the same design effort into arim brake frame it will be more aero than the disc one.
- Myth: Rim brakes don't work very well, especially in the wet on carbon rims. Reality: modern rim brakes are supremely efficient at allowing you to slow down a bike to exactly the extent that you wish. While they do have disadvantages compared to discs in wet conditions, an experienced cyclists easily learns how ro deal with them. And braking on carbon rims is now as good as on alloy rims in some of the best modern wheels.

As well as the ubiquitous myths about rim brakes, there are a whole load of disadvantages to discs that are hardly ever mentioned. We know about the weight and aero penalities of course, as well as their tendency to squeal. But there are other issues such as the necessity to use front wheels with more spokes that are crossed rather than radial (more weight and more quite significant drag), the need to either have longer chainstays or to have a less optimal chainline due to the wider rear hub, etc.

ugo.santalucia · July 2020

Nice post

yellowv2 · July 2020

Trek Emonda 2021

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