The big Coronavirus thread

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  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,598

    pblakeney said:

    So in summary, getting chickenpox as a child boosts your immune system against shingles as an adult. But you can't get shingles as an adult until you've had chickenpox.
    Surely best not to get chickenpox. Confused? You will be after this...

    Getting chickenpox as an adult is quite serious.
    Quite a reason for getting the vaccine.
    Get the vaccine and avoid the hassle. Don't get the vaccine and gamble between minor and major consequences.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rjsterry said:

    The last bit is what I was referencing. Kids not being vaccinated is considered better for society as it supposedly helps prevent shingles in adults.

    Putting it another way, kids don't get vaccinated so you don't need to either. All fine until you've got blisters on the inside of your eyelids and at risk of permanent eye damage.
    Better to just have both a shingles vaccine and a chickenpox one so no one needs to suffer.
    Are they different when it's the same virus? Shingles is just chickenpox that's been chilling in your body for a few years isn't it?
    How does the shingles vaccine work?

    The vaccine recommended for most people is a live vaccine called Zostavax. It contains a weakened chickenpox virus (varicella-zoster virus). It's similar , but not identical, to the chickenpox vaccine.

    People with a weakened immune system cannot have live vaccines. They will be offered a non-live vaccine called Shingrix. It activates the immune system but also contains an ingredient called an adjuvant, which helps to boost the response to the vaccine.

    Very occasionally, people develop chickenpox following shingles vaccination (fewer than 1 in 10,000 individuals). Talk to a GP if this happens to you.
    So it's for adults who have had chickenpox as a child?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,513

    rjsterry said:

    The last bit is what I was referencing. Kids not being vaccinated is considered better for society as it supposedly helps prevent shingles in adults.

    Putting it another way, kids don't get vaccinated so you don't need to either. All fine until you've got blisters on the inside of your eyelids and at risk of permanent eye damage.
    Better to just have both a shingles vaccine and a chickenpox one so no one needs to suffer.
    Are they different when it's the same virus? Shingles is just chickenpox that's been chilling in your body for a few years isn't it?
    How does the shingles vaccine work?

    The vaccine recommended for most people is a live vaccine called Zostavax. It contains a weakened chickenpox virus (varicella-zoster virus). It's similar , but not identical, to the chickenpox vaccine.

    People with a weakened immune system cannot have live vaccines. They will be offered a non-live vaccine called Shingrix. It activates the immune system but also contains an ingredient called an adjuvant, which helps to boost the response to the vaccine.

    Very occasionally, people develop chickenpox following shingles vaccination (fewer than 1 in 10,000 individuals). Talk to a GP if this happens to you.
    So it's for adults who have had chickenpox as a child?
    If you have the vaccine, you have a reduced chance of getting shingles, so presumably you can also have the shingles vaccine. I don't understand how you get shingles if you haven't had chickenpox due to the vaccine. Perhaps it is the case that you still have had chickenpox (so the virus lives in your body), but the vaccine meant you didn't have any symptoms.

    My point with all this is that making kids suffer for the benefit of adults seems a bit ropey in the case of chickenpox. Likewise, vaccinating kids for covid for little benefit for themselves because six million adults don't want to be vaccinated also seems a bit ropey. I have more sympathy when it comes to sacrificing the kids for the benefit of vaccinated adults as there is some benefit to the kids if their parents continue to live.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,245
    It's also a cost thing, which is always the case for the NHS.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028

    Forgot who you were for a bit there. For everyone else, that scientific American article is over a year old, so all the knowledge in it will be a bit out if date. I didn't read it.

    To be fair to Nick, his contention that "it’s important to keep the amount of virus in circulation under control and at as low a level as possible" shows remarkable insight and it definitely isn't something that is 'completely fkn obvious and always has been'...

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,513

    It's also a cost thing, which is always the case for the NHS.

    Apparently not as it would be covered by parents not taking time off work to look after sick children.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,245

    It's also a cost thing, which is always the case for the NHS.

    Apparently not as it would be covered by parents not taking time off work to look after sick children.
    Does that save the NHS money?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,598


    My point with all this is that making kids suffer for the benefit of adults seems a bit ropey in the case of chickenpox.

    Those kids won't then benefit when they get older?
    Seems a short sighted view.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Forgot who you were for a bit there. For everyone else, that scientific American article is over a year old, so all the knowledge in it will be a bit out if date. I didn't read it.

    To be fair to Nick, his contention that "it’s important to keep the amount of virus in circulation under control and at as low a level as possible" shows remarkable insight and it definitely isn't something that is 'completely fkn obvious and always has been'...


    Do we need to keep washing our hands till they bleed?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,513

    It's also a cost thing, which is always the case for the NHS.

    Apparently not as it would be covered by parents not taking time off work to look after sick children.
    Does that save the NHS money?
    Well, it means that they have fewer staff sick days, so yes.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028

    Forgot who you were for a bit there. For everyone else, that scientific American article is over a year old, so all the knowledge in it will be a bit out if date. I didn't read it.

    To be fair to Nick, his contention that "it’s important to keep the amount of virus in circulation under control and at as low a level as possible" shows remarkable insight and it definitely isn't something that is 'completely fkn obvious and always has been'...


    Do we need to keep washing our hands till they bleed?
    Well, the guidance does suggest washing them several times a day...
  • Forgot who you were for a bit there. For everyone else, that scientific American article is over a year old, so all the knowledge in it will be a bit out if date. I didn't read it.

    To be fair to Nick, his contention that "it’s important to keep the amount of virus in circulation under control and at as low a level as possible" shows remarkable insight and it definitely isn't something that is 'completely fkn obvious and always has been'...


    Do we need to keep washing our hands till they bleed?
    Well, the guidance does suggest washing them several times a day...
    If you aren't already doing this, you should be socially distancing from everyone.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,488
    edited September 2021

    rjsterry said:

    The last bit is what I was referencing. Kids not being vaccinated is considered better for society as it supposedly helps prevent shingles in adults.

    Putting it another way, kids don't get vaccinated so you don't need to either. All fine until you've got blisters on the inside of your eyelids and at risk of permanent eye damage.
    Better to just have both a shingles vaccine and a chickenpox one so no one needs to suffer.
    Are they different when it's the same virus? Shingles is just chickenpox that's been chilling in your body for a few years isn't it?
    How does the shingles vaccine work?

    The vaccine recommended for most people is a live vaccine called Zostavax. It contains a weakened chickenpox virus (varicella-zoster virus). It's similar , but not identical, to the chickenpox vaccine.

    People with a weakened immune system cannot have live vaccines. They will be offered a non-live vaccine called Shingrix. It activates the immune system but also contains an ingredient called an adjuvant, which helps to boost the response to the vaccine.

    Very occasionally, people develop chickenpox following shingles vaccination (fewer than 1 in 10,000 individuals). Talk to a GP if this happens to you.
    So it's for adults who have had chickenpox as a child?
    If you have the vaccine, you have a reduced chance of getting shingles, so presumably you can also have the shingles vaccine. I don't understand how you get shingles if you haven't had chickenpox due to the vaccine. Perhaps it is the case that you still have had chickenpox (so the virus lives in your body), but the vaccine meant you didn't have any symptoms.

    My point with all this is that making kids suffer for the benefit of adults seems a bit ropey in the case of chickenpox. Likewise, vaccinating kids for covid for little benefit for themselves because six million adults don't want to be vaccinated also seems a bit ropey. I have more sympathy when it comes to sacrificing the kids for the benefit of vaccinated adults as there is some benefit to the kids if their parents continue to live.
    😂

    Good to know they get something out of it.

    More seriously, it will interesting to see to what degree protection from serious illness wanes. There is a lot of chat about Israel, but if the solution is annual boosters (like seemingly most animal jabs) then that sounds manageable.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,488
    pblakeney said:


    My point with all this is that making kids suffer for the benefit of adults seems a bit ropey in the case of chickenpox.

    Those kids won't then benefit when they get older?
    Seems a short sighted view.
    What is the benefit of a having chickenpox over the vaccine?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,598
    rjsterry said:

    pblakeney said:


    My point with all this is that making kids suffer for the benefit of adults seems a bit ropey in the case of chickenpox.

    Those kids won't then benefit when they get older?
    Seems a short sighted view.
    What is the benefit of a having chickenpox over the vaccine?
    Good question.
    Ask the anti-vaxxers.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 12,615
    pangolin said:

    orraloon said:

    I keep remembering the episode of More or Less: Behind the Stats which estimated the total physical volume of the C-virus in the world. 175ml is the number I recall. One helluva glass of wine that.

    Would it be liquid? What would it look like?
    I think this is the episode where calculations are explained.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p096v4k2
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,245
    rjsterry said:

    pblakeney said:


    My point with all this is that making kids suffer for the benefit of adults seems a bit ropey in the case of chickenpox.

    Those kids won't then benefit when they get older?
    Seems a short sighted view.
    What is the benefit of a having chickenpox over the vaccine?
    I posted the NHS reasons upthread.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028

    Forgot who you were for a bit there. For everyone else, that scientific American article is over a year old, so all the knowledge in it will be a bit out if date. I didn't read it.

    To be fair to Nick, his contention that "it’s important to keep the amount of virus in circulation under control and at as low a level as possible" shows remarkable insight and it definitely isn't something that is 'completely fkn obvious and always has been'...


    Do we need to keep washing our hands till they bleed?
    Well, the guidance does suggest washing them several times a day...
    If you aren't already doing this, you should be socially distancing from everyone.
    You mean like, posting on the internet, instead of talking face to face..?
  • Forgot who you were for a bit there. For everyone else, that scientific American article is over a year old, so all the knowledge in it will be a bit out if date. I didn't read it.

    To be fair to Nick, his contention that "it’s important to keep the amount of virus in circulation under control and at as low a level as possible" shows remarkable insight and it definitely isn't something that is 'completely fkn obvious and always has been'...


    Do we need to keep washing our hands till they bleed?
    Well, the guidance does suggest washing them several times a day...
    If you aren't already doing this, you should be socially distancing from everyone.
    You mean like, posting on the internet, instead of talking face to face..?
    If you strangely choose one exclusively, then yes.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,488

    rjsterry said:

    pblakeney said:


    My point with all this is that making kids suffer for the benefit of adults seems a bit ropey in the case of chickenpox.

    Those kids won't then benefit when they get older?
    Seems a short sighted view.
    What is the benefit of a having chickenpox over the vaccine?
    I posted the NHS reasons upthread.
    I meant in terms of specific risk to the child.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry said:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jcvi-issues-updated-advice-on-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-aged-12-to-15

    Although it states here that the benefits are insufficiently greater than the risks. So slightly different to my original statement. Although it affects boys more, so it may be that for boys the risks are greater than the benefits.

    'Benefits insufficiently greater than risks' is definitely not the same as 'risks greater than benefits'. They also stated that they didn't consider the wider implications of reduced infections in that cohort and the wider population. I would suggest these are quite big things to leave out.
    I expanded on this in subsequent posts. Ultimately both are tiny and I was more interested in what parents were planning to do rather than the incessant Cake Stop point scoring.

    Hopefully I provided you with at least my perspective, based on my 2 kids
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028

    Forgot who you were for a bit there. For everyone else, that scientific American article is over a year old, so all the knowledge in it will be a bit out if date. I didn't read it.

    To be fair to Nick, his contention that "it’s important to keep the amount of virus in circulation under control and at as low a level as possible" shows remarkable insight and it definitely isn't something that is 'completely fkn obvious and always has been'...


    Do we need to keep washing our hands till they bleed?
    Well, the guidance does suggest washing them several times a day...
    If you aren't already doing this, you should be socially distancing from everyone.
    You mean like, posting on the internet, instead of talking face to face..?
    If you strangely choose one exclusively, then yes.
    How many cakestop points do you win for that?
  • Forgot who you were for a bit there. For everyone else, that scientific American article is over a year old, so all the knowledge in it will be a bit out if date. I didn't read it.

    To be fair to Nick, his contention that "it’s important to keep the amount of virus in circulation under control and at as low a level as possible" shows remarkable insight and it definitely isn't something that is 'completely fkn obvious and always has been'...


    Do we need to keep washing our hands till they bleed?
    Well, the guidance does suggest washing them several times a day...
    If you aren't already doing this, you should be socially distancing from everyone.
    You mean like, posting on the internet, instead of talking face to face..?
    If you strangely choose one exclusively, then yes.
    How many cakestop points do you win for that?
    I don't know what you're on about, so let's say we're even.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,245
    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    pblakeney said:


    My point with all this is that making kids suffer for the benefit of adults seems a bit ropey in the case of chickenpox.

    Those kids won't then benefit when they get older?
    Seems a short sighted view.
    What is the benefit of a having chickenpox over the vaccine?
    I posted the NHS reasons upthread.
    I meant in terms of specific risk to the child.
    Gotcha. I am sympathetic to public health reasons prioritising private reasons (within reason), but then I am not a hardcore individualist except for when it comes to making money.
  • womack
    womack Posts: 566
    I had shingles in my 20's after a brief affair with a woman from Liverpool. I presume she was a carrier for it. Intially gives you tremendous back pain then the skin irritations, mine were across stomach.

    At the time the doctor didn't prescribe anything just said something along the lines of keep it covered and it will go, which it did. Unfortunately it was a week before flying out to Jugoslavia for a beach holiday so ended up sunbathing with a row of plasters across my stomach.

    Back to Covid, my booster was booked for this Saturday with flu jab but have had text today, flu jab only, too early for Covid booster, needs to be six months from second jab (mine was May)

    They supply a link to book in when the time frame is met.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028

    Forgot who you were for a bit there. For everyone else, that scientific American article is over a year old, so all the knowledge in it will be a bit out if date. I didn't read it.

    To be fair to Nick, his contention that "it’s important to keep the amount of virus in circulation under control and at as low a level as possible" shows remarkable insight and it definitely isn't something that is 'completely fkn obvious and always has been'...


    Do we need to keep washing our hands till they bleed?
    Well, the guidance does suggest washing them several times a day...
    If you aren't already doing this, you should be socially distancing from everyone.
    You mean like, posting on the internet, instead of talking face to face..?
    If you strangely choose one exclusively, then yes.
    How many cakestop points do you win for that?
    I don't know what you're on about, so let's say we're even.
    That makes two of us then.

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,598
    womack said:

    I had shingles in my 20's after a brief affair with a woman from Liverpool. I presume she was a carrier for it....

    If you read my post upthread with the NHS link then it wasn't her.
    At least not by contagion. She may well have drained your reserves dry. 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    pblakeney said:

    womack said:

    I had shingles in my 20's after a brief affair with a woman from Liverpool. I presume she was a carrier for it....

    If you read my post upthread with the NHS link then it wasn't her.
    At least not by contagion. She may well have drained your reserves dry. 😉
    Joke from way back when HMS Hermes was still operational....

    "I've got hermes."

    "Don't you mean herpes?"

    "No, I'm a carrier.."
  • joe2019
    joe2019 Posts: 1,338

    pblakeney said:

    womack said:

    I had shingles in my 20's after a brief affair with a woman from Liverpool. I presume she was a carrier for it....

    If you read my post upthread with the NHS link then it wasn't her.
    At least not by contagion. She may well have drained your reserves dry. 😉
    Joke from way back when HMS Hermes was still operational....

    "I've got hermes."

    "Don't you mean herpes?"

    "No, I'm a carrier.."

    Still works

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,513
    The Guardian creating some Schrödinger people. One in 500 of the people living have died.

    One in 500 Americans have died of Covid

    America has passed another grim Covid-19 milestone, as data shows that one in 500 people living in the US have died from the virus since the pandemic began.