If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

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  • Rolf F wrote:
    Longshot wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:
    Richard Dawkins applying his usual logical approach, and summarising my thoughts perfectly for me.
    “I am deeply pessimistic,” he says, reflecting on British prime minister Boris Johnson’s latest manoeuvrings. “I think the Brexiteers started out by having a belief it would be a good thing; it has become a religion now. It has become a faith. It has become a creed... It has become like religious zeal. They are determined to get Brexit even if they destroy the country, and Scotland breaks away in the process. It’s a form of madness.”


    Much as I dislike Richard Dawkins, he's got a point here or at least that's the way it seems. A lot of Leavers had rational and creditable reasons for their choice. I'm hearing less of those now and just rhetoric about how it must be done whatever the outcome. Come on Leave, persuade me. I'm open to the concept, just tell me what the real benefits are and how we get them.

    I am guessing when you mean economic benefits of leaving. If so then Farage, Gove and co have never claimed any.

    I think it was all about "taking back control" and then popping over to Europe and grovelling a trade deal out of them that reflected our power, status and wealth in the world (ie a pretty poor trade deal from our perspective).

    The trade deal mutterings are a figleaf hiding a red herring. If you cared about exports the last thing you would do is campaign to leave the EU, in fact you would do a Maggie and aggressively try and deepen and expand the SM.
  • Rolf FRolf F Posts: 16,126
    The trade deal mutterings are a figleaf hiding a red herring. If you cared about exports the last thing you would do is campaign to leave the EU, in fact you would do a Maggie and aggressively try and deepen and expand the SM.

    You know we shouldn't worry. Apparently we made 1.67m cars in 2017 and exported 1.34 million of them. So we bought 0.33m of them ourselves.

    New car registrations were 2.54m in 2017. However, since Brexiters are patriotic and will all buy British without exception, they alone should be responsible for ensuring that at least 52% of the cars sold in the UK are British made in future (as the unpatriotic remainers will all be buying Euro censored ).

    So, we should be selling at least 1.27m British made cars to Brexiteers next year so we'd only need 0.7m confused Remainers to accidentally buy British when they thought they were buying Euro and we'd be no worse off!

    It's looking very positive indeed!
    Faster than a tent.......
  • LongshotLongshot Posts: 394

    I am guessing when you mean economic benefits of leaving. If so then Farage, Gove and co have never claimed any.

    Actually, any benefits... economic or otherwise.
    You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 21,987 Lives Here
    Rolf F wrote:
    However, since Brexiters are patriotic and will all buy British without exception...
    Whilst I know it's a tongue in cheek comment, I must add you are massively underestimating the levels of hypocrisy. Just look at Coopster and his Canyon. Not only did he buy a German bike, he bought direct so not even a plucky British shopkeeper got to see any of his cash. :roll:
    Having only just seen this thread and having not looked at other replies, I'll be surprised if I'm the only one who regrets voting leave in 2016, not taking the time to look up the claims by both sides prior to voting and being suckered in by bits like that ****** lying bus.
    You're a rare beast admitting you've changed your mind, and I thank you for saying so. I know of a couple of others that have said similar, the majority seem to be getting more extreme unfortunately.
  • Longshot wrote:

    I am guessing when you mean economic benefits of leaving. If so then Farage, Gove and co have never claimed any.

    Actually, any benefits... economic or otherwise.

    That only leaves sovereignity
  • Rolf FRolf F Posts: 16,126
    veronese68 wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    However, since Brexiters are patriotic and will all buy British without exception...
    Whilst I know it's a tongue in cheek comment, I must add you are massively underestimating the levels of hypocrisy. Just look at Coopster and his Canyon. Not only did he buy a German bike, he bought direct so not even a plucky British shopkeeper got to see any of his cash. :roll:

    I have thought of that precise example myself. Despite being an ardent remainer, I have tried where possible to buy British and failing that European. Hard often to succeed these days but you have to do your flawed best (bit like the EU). I didn't buy a Canyon - I bought a Ribble (and a Look which at least wasn't made in the Far East). My previous washing machine was UK made as is my vacuum cleaner. I don't always succeed but I do try. I suspect our beloved Coopster didn't give it a moments thought. Thinking about consequences, benefits to Blighty etc being not what you'd expect most brexiters to do cause Patriotism is all about waving flags and errrr, in practical terms I still have no idea!

    Actually, what is it about? Not immigration, not the economy, not being unable to make our own rules (cos we all know that in the EU we make the rules and outside of it we follow them). What is the point of this? Really......
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Rolf FRolf F Posts: 16,126
    Longshot wrote:

    I am guessing when you mean economic benefits of leaving. If so then Farage, Gove and co have never claimed any.

    Actually, any benefits... economic or otherwise.

    That only leaves sovereignity

    What? That person that our Brexiter in chief lied to last week?
    Faster than a tent.......
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 1,972
    What does sovereignty even mean anymore?

    Are our lying politicians better or worse than the ones in Brussels or does it not matter, because at least they're ours?

    Within the EU, we always had a say in the legislation it passed, a pretty major one at that, and we had a veto also. I've still not been able to get any real examples of where EU law has been really bad for us, not ones that haven't been disproved anyway. Most EU laws have been put in place to raise standards, particularly when it comes to human / employee rights.
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame ??
    Tall....
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 9,813
    elbowloh wrote:
    ...Most EU laws have been put in place to raise standards, particularly when it comes to human / employee rights.
    Careful now. You nearly gave away the real reason behind all this.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • secretsamsecretsam Posts: 4,507
    Ian_d wrote:
    Remoaners speak so much censored
    Was reading this thread with interest, intelligent discussion and then, out comes the sane voice of moderate Leavers.
    censored .
    Edit: last word should be t-w-a-t

    It's just a hill. Get over it.
  • secretsamsecretsam Posts: 4,507
    rjsterry wrote:
    I also don't believe that remainers all voted that way for solely rational reasons, however much we tell ourselves that was the case.
    Absolutely.
    I know that like any political system or body, the EU is deeply flawed.
    But I also knew I didn't want the kind of people who believe what's written in the Daily Heil to win.
    Plus, I like being "European".

    It's just a hill. Get over it.
  • Rolf FRolf F Posts: 16,126
    haydenm wrote:
    The fact that both sides think they are on the rational side and the other side is full of total mentalists probably tells us that both sides are wrong. I know plenty of rational people on both sides and would be prepared to change my mind if the balance of risk changed.

    Missed this one. This is the sort of worrying pseudo sanity that sounds like balanced pragmatism but isn't.

    Going back to the bus analogy, if you have the driver screaming "let me drive this thing off the cliff" and someone up front screaming "no, no, no" and fighting to keep the bus on the road, you probably shouldn't take the line that because both sides think they are on the rational side that both sides are wrong.

    It is actually possible that if both sides think that the other side is insane, that only one of them is right.

    I have met rational people who want to leave but I have never once heard a rational reason to leave. Their rationality does not extend to Brexit because they never have any rational reasons for what they want.
    Faster than a tent.......
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