If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

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  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 6,809
    slowbike wrote:
    The majority of the research material is based on peoples opinion - and very little fact - because nobody has left the EU before - so there could be no fact - just opinion. So who's opinion do you trust? Yours? I don't know you. Newspapers? Well, they're biased towards whichever political stance they want to take.
    In short, afaik, there isn't any one source you can implicitly trust
    You are basically falling for the particular application of the postmodernist line being pushed by the likes of Trump and Putin: they know perfectly well that they're pushing a load of guff, they don't expect you to believe it either, but the aim is more to cause confusion, chaos, and a lack of trust in... well, more or less everything.
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,071
    slowbike wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    slowbike wrote:
    The majority of the research material is based on peoples opinion - and very little fact - because nobody has left the EU before - so there could be no fact - just opinion. So who's opinion do you trust? Yours? I don't know you. Newspapers? Well, they're biased towards whichever political stance they want to take.
    In short, afaik, there isn't any one source you can implicitly trust.

    It's called critical thinking.

    I can't help but think you're being a little too critical?

    You seemed to be asking how you were supposed to make the correct decision when ticking the ballot paper.

    If we take it as a given that, by voting to Remain, I made the correct decision (fair for this discussion, I think - you've said you voted the incorrectly and would change your vote if given the chance)... then how did I - and others - make the correct decision when all the information we had to hand was the same as what you had?

    But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.
    Ben

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  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,353
    bompington wrote:
    but the aim is more to cause confusion, chaos, and a lack of trust in... well, more or less everything.
    pretty much works ..

    dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

    I've been open and honest about which way I voted and why - I'm not an extremist and I believe I did carefully consider my vote before placing it. In hindsight I should've voted the other way. I'm not going to apologise as I did what I felt was right at the time.
    In other things I've done wrong - I bought the wrong raffle ticket, filled up with fuel at the wrong petrol station and ride with the wrong size tyres on my bike - oh, and at the wrong pressure too ... according to someone.
    I'm trying to teach my son the virtues I think are important in life - honesty is top of list. So he'll probably be as good as me at Politics too ...
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,353
    Ben6899 wrote:
    But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.
    Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?

    to err is human; to forgive, divine ...
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,071
    slowbike wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    but the aim is more to cause confusion, chaos, and a lack of trust in... well, more or less everything.
    pretty much works ..

    dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

    I've been open and honest about which way I voted and why - I'm not an extremist and I believe I did carefully consider my vote before placing it. In hindsight I should've voted the other way. I'm not going to apologise as I did what I felt was right at the time.
    In other things I've done wrong - I bought the wrong raffle ticket, filled up with fuel at the wrong petrol station and ride with the wrong size tyres on my bike - oh, and at the wrong pressure too ... according to someone.
    I'm trying to teach my son the virtues I think are important in life - honesty is top of list. So he'll probably be as good as me at Politics too ...

    Openness and honesty is certainly the best way.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
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  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,353
    Ben6899 wrote:
    slowbike wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    but the aim is more to cause confusion, chaos, and a lack of trust in... well, more or less everything.
    pretty much works ..

    dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

    I've been open and honest about which way I voted and why - I'm not an extremist and I believe I did carefully consider my vote before placing it. In hindsight I should've voted the other way. I'm not going to apologise as I did what I felt was right at the time.
    In other things I've done wrong - I bought the wrong raffle ticket, filled up with fuel at the wrong petrol station and ride with the wrong size tyres on my bike - oh, and at the wrong pressure too ... according to someone.
    I'm trying to teach my son the virtues I think are important in life - honesty is top of list. So he'll probably be as good as me at Politics too ...

    Openness and honesty is certainly the best way.
    Unfortunately, it leads to the (often mis)understanding that others behave the same ...
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,071
    slowbike wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.
    Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?

    I honestly don't see why I should be. People voting in a manner to "give the system a wake up call" or similar... well they've created a proper shitstorm.
    Ben

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  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,353
    Ben6899 wrote:
    slowbike wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.
    Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?

    I honestly don't see why I should be. People voting in a manner to "give the system a wake up call" or similar... well they've created a proper shitstorm.

    Can I remind you that the result wasn't legally binding and was a simple "In/Out" question - nothing about the way the government or parliament went about interpreting the result.

    IIRC, the majority of MPs wanted to remain - yet voted overwhelmingly to invoke A50 without first setting out what it was they wanted to achieve. A knee-jerk reaction when a more considered approach was required.
  • ProssPross Posts: 21,073
    slowbike wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    slowbike wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.
    Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?

    I honestly don't see why I should be. People voting in a manner to "give the system a wake up call" or similar... well they've created a proper shitstorm.

    Can I remind you that the result wasn't legally binding and was a simple "In/Out" question - nothing about the way the government or parliament went about interpreting the result.

    IIRC, the majority of MPs wanted to remain - yet voted overwhelmingly to invoke A50 without first setting out what it was they wanted to achieve. A knee-jerk reaction when a more considered approach was required.

    Would you like to remind all those that shout 'will of the people' that this is the case?
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,353
    Pross wrote:
    slowbike wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    slowbike wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.
    Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?

    I honestly don't see why I should be. People voting in a manner to "give the system a wake up call" or similar... well they've created a proper shitstorm.

    Can I remind you that the result wasn't legally binding and was a simple "In/Out" question - nothing about the way the government or parliament went about interpreting the result.

    IIRC, the majority of MPs wanted to remain - yet voted overwhelmingly to invoke A50 without first setting out what it was they wanted to achieve. A knee-jerk reaction when a more considered approach was required.

    Would you like to remind all those that shout 'will of the people' that this is the case?

    Well - quite ... It's amazing just how many different ways a single word answer to a simple question can be interpreted ...
  • Rolf FRolf F Posts: 16,126
    slowbike wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.
    Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?

    to err is human; to forgive, divine ...

    I guess that the problem is that you need to expect a bit of abuse if you pull someone off a cliff with you and then change your mind before you reach the bottom.......
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Jez monJez mon Posts: 3,809
    Rolf F wrote:
    slowbike wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.
    Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?

    to err is human; to forgive, divine ...

    I guess that the problem is that you need to expect a bit of abuse if you pull someone off a cliff with you and then change your mind before you reach the bottom.......


    But there is no cliff, gravity or anything.

    The UK government can revoke A50 at any stage.

    Slowbike has arguably been rather brave (for want of a better word)

    If there is another ref, or a ge where remaining is a credible option, it will require a fair few people to admit they were "wrong". Jumping on them for doing so isn't exactly a good way of getting that to happen
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,071
    You need to put the whole conversation in context. I broached the idea of critical thinking in order to decide not to vote Leave... and I was told I was being too critical and not gentlemanly.

    I'm not sure any other type of approach was warranted. If Slowbike is annoyed to the point of voting Leave (in the unlikely event of ref2)... Well that's just stupid.

    (FWIW, I don't think Slowbike would cut his nose to spite his face, just because anyone here has been up front with him)
    Ben

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  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,353
    Jez mon wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    slowbike wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.
    Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?

    to err is human; to forgive, divine ...

    I guess that the problem is that you need to expect a bit of abuse if you pull someone off a cliff with you and then change your mind before you reach the bottom.......


    But there is no cliff, gravity or anything.

    The UK government can revoke A50 at any stage.

    Slowbike has arguably been rather brave (for want of a better word)

    If there is another ref, or a ge where remaining is a credible option, it will require a fair few people to admit they were "wrong". Jumping on them for doing so isn't exactly a good way of getting that to happen

    Thank you. Brave? Honest? I'd rather go with Honesty - I could easily say that I voted remain - nobody could prove me wrong. Would I listen to Ben when the next referendum comes along? Not if he's going to throw abuse at anyone that doesn't vote the same way he thinks we should vote - why should I even listen to him? By all means, call me a bit of a censored for getting this one "wrong", but at least be compassionate and understanding on how/why it happened.

    At the time - there wasn't a cliff we were pulling someone over - how we got to the bottom was unknown - it was rather assumed by many, that, assuming we did decide to go, we'd either build some stairs, escalator, lift or a parachute ...
    It was Parliament who decided to jump before working out how we'd get to the bottom, what the bottom looks like or even finalizing how far down the bottom was ... They cannot, in any way, blame that on the "Will of the People"
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,071
    Don't be so thin-skinned, Slowbike.

    I haven't thrown abuse at anyone but Coopster. And he deserves it.
    Ben

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  • slowbike wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    slowbike wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.
    Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?

    to err is human; to forgive, divine ...

    I guess that the problem is that you need to expect a bit of abuse if you pull someone off a cliff with you and then change your mind before you reach the bottom.......


    But there is no cliff, gravity or anything.

    The UK government can revoke A50 at any stage.

    Slowbike has arguably been rather brave (for want of a better word)

    If there is another ref, or a ge where remaining is a credible option, it will require a fair few people to admit they were "wrong". Jumping on them for doing so isn't exactly a good way of getting that to happen

    Thank you. Brave? Honest? I'd rather go with Honesty - I could easily say that I voted remain - nobody could prove me wrong. Would I listen to Ben when the next referendum comes along? Not if he's going to throw abuse at anyone that doesn't vote the same way he thinks we should vote - why should I even listen to him? By all means, call me a bit of a censored for getting this one "wrong", but at least be compassionate and understanding on how/why it happened.

    At the time - there wasn't a cliff we were pulling someone over - how we got to the bottom was unknown - it was rather assumed by many, that, assuming we did decide to go, we'd either build some stairs, escalator, lift or a parachute ...
    It was Parliament who decided to jump before working out how we'd get to the bottom, what the bottom looks like or even finalizing how far down the bottom was ... They cannot, in any way, blame that on the "Will of the People"

    If I understand your analogy, you are accepting that the economy would decline in the event of a Leave vote but that it would be done in a more orderly manner than we have ended up with.

    Our dear friend Coopster would argue that Project Fear gave you a heads up on the potential negative impact of voting Leave.

    I don't think you needed to be Nostradamus to predict that after 40 years membership that extricating ourselves in two years was going to be traumatic.
  • verylonglegsverylonglegs Posts: 3,400
    bompington wrote:
    So from a scan no-one would vote differently?

    voting Leave (like voting Trump) is an emotional decision - in neither case will people change their minds

    you need to count people who will now be eligible to vote, those who will now bother to vote, and those who will no longer be voting
    Polls certainly say that very, very few are changing their minds.

    It's staggering - the extent to which the whole thing has become like religious fundamentalism, especially for Brexiteers: I have literally never met a fanatical remainer - not even online: without exception the line is something more like "on balance we're better off in the EU".
    But a lot of Brexiteers seem to have fallen into the idea that Brexit is an end in itself, rather than (say) a way of furthering prosperity, sovereignty or whatever.

    A good indication of how crazy things have got is seeing pensioners spending their time waving placards with 'WTO' on at any pro-Brexit gathering. I'd be willing to bet they'd never heard of the acronym a few years ago. Likewise a chap at work who was seen standing over a colleague in the canteen a while back with his face twisted in fury and veins bulging on his neck, pointing aggresively and loudly exclaiming a no deal is not a problem and the idea it could harm us was nonsense. I mention that as before the referendum I'd never heard him express an interest or a single opinion on anything in the political world, not in a decade. Now anything Brexit related gets him in a frothing rage. It's truly completely f***ed up.
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,071
    ... a chap at work who was seen standing over a colleague in the canteen a while back with his face twisted in fury and veins bulging on his neck, pointing aggresively and loudly exclaiming a no deal is not a problem and the idea it could harm us was nonsense...

    I'd probably mention that to HR. Then he could really test the hypothesis.
    Ben

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  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    Likewise a chap at work who was seen standing over a colleague in the canteen a while back with his face twisted in fury and veins bulging on his neck, pointing aggresively and loudly exclaiming a no deal is not a problem and the idea it could harm us was nonsense. I mention that as before the referendum I'd never heard him express an interest or a single opinion on anything in the political world, not in a decade. Now anything Brexit related gets him in a frothing rage. It's truly completely f***ed up.

    I've seen this as well, people simply fuming when the subject is brought up, it is really really really weird. Nothing is worth getting that worked up about. It's utterly strange how people have let it become an emotional issue. Emotions like that don't help anything or change anything.

    I do think getting that ratty can be explained sometimes as a defence mechanism in certain people who don't know what they are on about past a sentence about leaving. It can also be quite tribal, some people like a them and us mentality, chuck in a bit of self-righteousness and concept of being wronged and any of them can be like a wind up toy smacking between skirting boards at just the mention of the b word.

    It's so close to how we saw the Trump rallies and the aggression of the crowds, and let's face it many UK people would say they find that culturally different to the UK, that it wouldn't happen in the UK, but here were are. There are a lot of people who really do need to get a grip and calm down. It's embarrassing.

    Is the anger just a product of passion for a subject and therefore warranted? Naaaa. It is what it is, idiotic.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,296
    mfin wrote:
    Emotions like that don't help anything or change anything.

    Suddenly your thread makes sense. :)

    It's like you've never seen humans before. People haven't let it become an emotional issue; it was never anything else. All the Leave campaigning was based on emotional responses, that's one reason why they won and the logical, facts and figures Remain campaign was so bad.

    "Things will be more or less the same and over time may become incrementally better!" as D:ream didn't sing.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    edited 9 September
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    Emotions like that don't help anything or change anything.

    Suddenly your thread makes sense. :)

    It's like you've never seen humans before.

    What are you on about? The thread was started just to see what the poll results were. The clue is the poll and thread starter:

    "If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote? A fair amount of people are hanging around on Cake Stop talking about Brexit, it might be interesting to see."

    Note also the context of me saying "Emotions like that don't help anything or change anything" was talking about people with weird aggressive reactions as verylonglegs described.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,296
    mfin wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    Emotions like that don't help anything or change anything.

    Suddenly your thread makes sense. :)

    It's like you've never seen humans before.

    What are you on about? The thread was started just to see what the poll results were. The clue is the poll and thread starter:

    "If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote? A fair amount of people are hanging around on Cake Stop talking about Brexit, it might be interesting to see."

    Sorry, I meant the other one on Spirituality.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    Emotions like that don't help anything or change anything.

    Suddenly your thread makes sense. :)

    It's like you've never seen humans before.

    What are you on about? The thread was started just to see what the poll results were. The clue is the poll and thread starter:

    "If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote? A fair amount of people are hanging around on Cake Stop talking about Brexit, it might be interesting to see."

    Sorry, I meant the other one on Spirituality.

    Still makes no sense. You're referring to words completely out of context that are on a different subject. Cherry picking some words to suit your thinking and opinions there.
  • Robert88Robert88 Posts: 2,722
    mfin wrote:
    Likewise a chap at work who was seen standing over a colleague in the canteen a while back with his face twisted in fury and veins bulging on his neck, pointing aggresively and loudly exclaiming a no deal is not a problem and the idea it could harm us was nonsense. I mention that as before the referendum I'd never heard him express an interest or a single opinion on anything in the political world, not in a decade. Now anything Brexit related gets him in a frothing rage. It's truly completely f***ed up.

    I've seen this as well, people simply fuming when the subject is brought up, it is really really really weird. Nothing is worth getting that worked up about. It's utterly strange how people have let it become an emotional issue. Emotions like that don't help anything or change anything.

    I do think getting that ratty can be explained sometimes as a defence mechanism in certain people who don't know what they are on about past a sentence about leaving. It can also be quite tribal, some people like a them and us mentality, chuck in a bit of self-righteousness and concept of being wronged and any of them can be like a wind up toy smacking between skirting boards at just the mention of the b word.

    It's so close to how we saw the Trump rallies and the aggression of the crowds, and let's face it many UK people would say they find that culturally different to the UK, that it wouldn't happen in the UK, but here were are. There are a lot of people who really do need to get a grip and calm down. It's embarrassing.

    Is the anger just a product of passion for a subject and therefore warranted? Naaaa. It is what it is, idiotic.

    I agree.

    Anyone who voted to Leave has since witnessed three plus years of political mayhem as a result and also heard dire predictions of the consequences.

    Those who openly flaunted their Leave vote have since had two options (other than keep very quiet and hope people forget!)

    1. Admit that it was a bad judgement call

    2. Defend the decision to the death (hopefully not literally)

    Not surprising if the pressure gets to those who choose the latter. Nor that they become angry as a defence mechanism.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,296
    edited 10 September
    mfin wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    Emotions like that don't help anything or change anything.

    Suddenly your thread makes sense. :)

    It's like you've never seen humans before.

    What are you on about? The thread was started just to see what the poll results were. The clue is the poll and thread starter:

    "If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote? A fair amount of people are hanging around on Cake Stop talking about Brexit, it might be interesting to see."

    Sorry, I meant the other one on Spirituality.

    Still makes no sense. You're referring to words completely out of context that are on a different subject. Cherry picking some words to suit your thinking and opinions there.

    I'll try again.

    Successful political campaigns usually seek to exploit emotional responses. You don't win an election by calmly and rationally stating why your party is on balance a better bet than the others.

    If people have largely voted Leave for emotional reasons - a sense of being ignored by government, the world around you changing faster than you would like and so on* - then it's not surprising that they have an emotional reaction when the result that they thought they had won is threatened.

    *I also don't believe that remainers all voted that way for solely rational reasons, however much we tell ourselves that was the case.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 1,723
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    Emotions like that don't help anything or change anything.

    Suddenly your thread makes sense. :)

    It's like you've never seen humans before.

    What are you on about? The thread was started just to see what the poll results were. The clue is the poll and thread starter:

    "If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote? A fair amount of people are hanging around on Cake Stop talking about Brexit, it might be interesting to see."

    Sorry, I meant the other one on Spirituality.

    Still makes no sense. You're referring to words completely out of context that are on a different subject. Cherry picking some words to suit your thinking and opinions there.

    I'll try again.

    Successful political campaigns usually seek to exploit emotional responses. You don't win an election by calmly and rationally stating why your party is on balance a better bet than the others.

    If people have largely voted Leave for emotional reasons - a sense of being ignored by government, the world around you changing faster than you would like and so on* - then it's not surprising that they have an emotional reaction when the result that they thought they had won is threatened.

    I also don't believe that remainers all voted that way for solely rational reasons, however much we tell ourselves that was the case.

    Doffs cap. Well said.
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 6,809
    You have to remember that mf, unlike everybody else on the planet, is purely moved by reason and logic ;-)
  • verylonglegsverylonglegs Posts: 3,400
    Ben6899 wrote:
    ... a chap at work who was seen standing over a colleague in the canteen a while back with his face twisted in fury and veins bulging on his neck, pointing aggresively and loudly exclaiming a no deal is not a problem and the idea it could harm us was nonsense...

    I'd probably mention that to HR. Then he could really test the hypothesis.

    The guy on the receiving end of his wisdom just let him rant himself out and offered a shrug and silence at the end, it was pretty effective at showing the idiot up. I guess if he was ok with it then it was his call. I think if HR departments were getting complaints about Brexit disagreements up and down the country then they'd be over-whelmed.
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 5,302
    8 No Dealers now. That'll be Botster plus their /his / its new login IDs.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    As of tonight, 8 no deals, 3 deals, 98 remains.
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