If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

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  • NorvernRobNorvernRob Posts: 1,448
    mfin wrote:
    2 No deals, 0 Deals and 53 remains at the moment.

    I'm genuinely surprised, I hadn't thought it would be that extreme for one minute.

    Have you even read the Brexit threads :lol: I thought it was supposed to be Leavers who were full of bigotry and hatred, until I started reading that. :wink:
  • Robert88Robert88 Posts: 2,722
    Ian_d wrote:
    "The millennium bug" who remembers that, so much censored spoke by so many, the world will end computers will cause havoc and what happened Nada zilch nothing. Remoaners speak so much censored , how do they know what will happen, they do not, they just speculate. It will hurt the EU the same if not more than the UK.

    I remember it. Working for a UK Blue chip company the efforts we made to proof our system against failure were phenomenal. We had complete test environments set up with live data that could be run over and over again to ensure everything would work. On the day a large number of staff were bought in to monitor and be prepared to troubleshoot for which they were generously rewarded. I still have an engraved champagne glass the company gave each of us in gratitude.

    All companies that valued their integrity or had safety critical systems did the same exercise. It cost a lot money but the fact that there are fools who can now be tricked by liars into believing it was just a scare story shows it was effective.

    Of course, compared to leaving the world's largest and most prosperous trading to do we know not what, preparing for the new millennium was well understood and preparing for it was trivial by comparison. In truth (as mentioned in a post above) , there is no comparison; funny how it was not a divisive issue until now!
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 1,716
    edited 7 September
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:
    Asking this question in Cake Stop is like asking Sun readers if they want the return of pictures of women with big t1ts in their paper.

    Really? Why are people interested in cycling anti-brexit then? Doesn't make sense why there would be a correlation.

    Maybe you mean it's full of people who like discussing things and thinking them through :)

    The implication being that people who are pro Brexit have arrived at their opinions without discussion or thinking them through? Condescending much?
    Nobody is suggesting a correlation between being a cyclist and holding a given political view except you. I am simply making an observation - that for as long as I've been a member of this particular forum, the overriding weight of opinions expressed in Cake Stop are massively in favour of remaining in the EU and as such the answer to your question is a foregone conclusion along the lines of do bears censored in the woods? Whether one particular sub forum with a small number of active contributors on website with a niche section dedicated to road cycling is representative of the views of cyclists as a whole is for a different conversation.
  • Ian_d wrote:
    "The millennium bug" who remembers that, so much censored spoke by so many, the world will end computers will cause havoc and what happened Nada zilch nothing. Remoaners speak so much censored , how do they know what will happen, they do not, they just speculate. It will hurt the EU the same if not more than the UK.

    You do know the Leave Govt assumes various bad things will happen if we leave.

    I refuse to believe that you think the EU will suffer as much.
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,616
    No surprise from me. Leave. Ideally with a deal, but if as to be expected EU don't want to negotiate then unfortunately it's walk away with no deal.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • ProssPross Posts: 21,041
    Mr Goo wrote:
    No surprise from me. Leave. Ideally with a deal, but if as to be expected EU don't want to negotiate then unfortunately it's walk away with no deal.

    The EU has negotiated and agreed a deal on the withdrawal already. Our PM accepted it but our MPs rejected it. It was our Government that went in with a load of red lines that contradicted each other. Yet another Brexit lie is that the EU are refusing to negotiate.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 10,666
    Ian_d wrote:
    "The millennium bug" who remembers that, so much censored spoke by so many, the world will end computers will cause havoc and what happened Nada zilch nothing. Remoaners speak so much censored , how do they know what will happen, they do not, they just speculate. It will hurt the EU the same if not more than the UK.

    Lol - are you from 2016? can't believe there are still people dumb enough to think this after all that's been said...
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    shortfall wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:
    Asking this question in Cake Stop is like asking Sun readers if they want the return of pictures of women with big t1ts in their paper.

    Really? Why are people interested in cycling anti-brexit then? Doesn't make sense why there would be a correlation.

    Maybe you mean it's full of people who like discussing things and thinking them through :)

    The implication being that people who are pro Brexit have arrived at their opinions without discussion or thinking them through? Condescending much?

    Well, let me pick you up on that, it's a joke. I would never mean to say that all people who are pro brexit didn't like discussing things or thinking them through. I am utterly convinced that a subsection of them didn't though, and that probably ran into a shocking amount of multi-millions.

    I'll grant you that many voting against brexit did not fully entertain the potential positives of leaving either, but I doubt there were much of a subsection of those who did so out of insular, right wing, anti-immigration feelings and false assumptions of fundamental lies being true. The opposite is true of some pro-brexit voters, well I would assume it is as that is exactly the kind of stuff leave campaigns spent millions on to attract a certain element of them.

    Anyway, in case you find it an emotional issue, which I don't, I think the real issue is that people calm down and look for where compromise can be reached, to produce a realistic way forward, anyone who get's shirty about brexit is just creating hot air for themselves to breath, it does nothing.

    There's no rush, there's what, 40 odd years of trading laws, structures and mechanisms to address. It's hugely complex, and these things take time. If we leave, I personally don't mind as long as it is done with absolute detail and clarity, mitigating as much risk financially and to all forms of disruption. It's common sense to do so.

    If on the other hand it comes back around to another referendum along the lines of something like at the top of this thread, and it means we don't leave I am ok with that too. It can only help to actually have a true consensus of opinion that the country can act on, because no one can claim where that consensus lies until people are asked. I'm afraid anyone who would answer that in binary fashion saying that we already know the answer to that because of the previous referendum would need to grow up as that is simply not true.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 1,716
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:
    Asking this question in Cake Stop is like asking Sun readers if they want the return of pictures of women with big t1ts in their paper.

    Really? Why are people interested in cycling anti-brexit then? Doesn't make sense why there would be a correlation.

    Maybe you mean it's full of people who like discussing things and thinking them through :)

    The implication being that people who are pro Brexit have arrived at their opinions without discussion or thinking them through? Condescending much?

    Well, let me pick you up on that, it's a joke. I would never mean to say that all people who are pro brexit didn't like discussing things or thinking them through. I am utterly convinced that a subsection of them didn't though, and that probably ran into a shocking amount of multi-millions.

    I'll grant you that many voting against brexit did not fully entertain the potential positives of leaving either, but I doubt there were much of a subsection of those who did so out of insular, right wing, anti-immigration feelings and false assumptions of fundamental lies being true. The opposite is true of some pro-brexit voters, well I would assume it is as that is exactly the kind of stuff leave campaigns spent millions on to attract a certain element of them.

    Anyway, in case you find it an emotional issue, which I don't, I think the real issue is that people calm down and look for where compromise can be reached, to produce a realistic way forward, anyone who get's shirty about brexit is just creating hot air for themselves to breath, it does nothing.

    There's no rush, there's what, 40 odd years of trading laws, structures and mechanisms to address. It's hugely complex, and these things take time. If we leave, I personally don't mind as long as it is done with absolute detail and clarity, mitigating as much risk financially and to all forms of disruption. It's common sense to do so.

    If on the other hand it comes back around to another referendum along the lines of something like at the top of this thread, and it means we don't leave I am ok with that too. It can only help be a true consensus of opinion the country can act on now that no one can claim where that consensus lies until people are asked. I'm afraid anyone who would answer that in binary fashion saying that we already know the answer to that because of the previous referendum would need to grow up as that is simply not true.

    Well it's certainly not a "left" "right" issue and I think it's disingenuous to assume that the leavers can be characterized as
    being either stupid, racist, unthinking or any combination thereof (and there's plenty of those kind of assumptions been on display on the Brexit thread over the years) or that remainers are automatically more virtuous and intelligent. I'm prepared to accept (based on the evidence) that the remain vote contained a higher proportion of younger voters and those with higher education qualifications etc, but it's lazy to extrapolate that data to pigeonhole the bulk of leavers as elderly racists or the uneducated and unwashed. As I've previously stated I am myself in favour of the Norway option or something close to it which seems a reasonable compromise under the circumstances, but that route out seems to have evaporated. Which leaves even someone as cynical as I am (with already very ittle respect for most of our political class) absolutely staggered by the absolute abortion they are making of the process.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 1,716
    shortfall wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:
    Asking this question in Cake Stop is like asking Sun readers if they want the return of pictures of women with big t1ts in their paper.

    Really? Why are people interested in cycling anti-brexit then? Doesn't make sense why there would be a correlation.

    Maybe you mean it's full of people who like discussing things and thinking them through :)

    The implication being that people who are pro Brexit have arrived at their opinions without discussion or thinking them through? Condescending much?

    Well, let me pick you up on that, it's a joke. I would never mean to say that all people who are pro brexit didn't like discussing things or thinking them through. I am utterly convinced that a subsection of them didn't though, and that probably ran into a shocking amount of multi-millions.

    I'll grant you that many voting against brexit did not fully entertain the potential positives of leaving either, but I doubt there were much of a subsection of those who did so out of insular, right wing, anti-immigration feelings and false assumptions of fundamental lies being true. The opposite is true of some pro-brexit voters, well I would assume it is as that is exactly the kind of stuff leave campaigns spent millions on to attract a certain element of them.

    Anyway, in case you find it an emotional issue, which I don't, I think the real issue is that people calm down and look for where compromise can be reached, to produce a realistic way forward, anyone who get's shirty about brexit is just creating hot air for themselves to breath, it does nothing.

    There's no rush, there's what, 40 odd years of trading laws, structures and mechanisms to address. It's hugely complex, and these things take time. If we leave, I personally don't mind as long as it is done with absolute detail and clarity, mitigating as much risk financially and to all forms of disruption. It's common sense to do so.

    If on the other hand it comes back around to another referendum along the lines of something like at the top of this thread, and it means we don't leave I am ok with that too. It can only help be a true consensus of opinion the country can act on now that no one can claim where that consensus lies until people are asked. I'm afraid anyone who would answer that in binary fashion saying that we already know the answer to that because of the previous referendum would need to grow up as that is simply not true.

    Well it's certainly not a "left" "right" issue and I think it's disingenuous to assume that the leavers can be characterized as
    being either stupid, racist, unthinking or any combination thereof (and there's plenty of those kind of assumptions been on display on the Brexit thread over the years) or that remainers are automatically more virtuous and intelligent. The evidence points to the remain vote containing a higher proportion of younger voters and those with higher education qualifications etc, but it's lazy to extrapolate that data to pigeonhole the bulk of leavers as elderly racists or the uneducated and unwashed. As I've previously stated I am myself in favour of the Norway option or something close to it which seems a reasonable compromise under the circumstances, but that route out seems to have evaporated. Which leaves even someone as cynical as I am (with already very ittle respect for most of our political class) absolutely staggered by the absolute abortion they are making of the process.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    shortfall wrote:

    Well it's certainly not a "left" "right" issue and I think it's disingenuous to assume that the leavers can be characterized as
    being either stupid, racist, unthinking or any combination thereof

    My point was never that all are, so I think you're still reading something that's not said. I can say I am completely certain that SOME of them are somewhat racist etc, that's all, and that probably runs into multi-millions. It's something Brexit voters who aren't racist or whatever have to accept, their vote was propped up by people that are.

    Note you've also said "it's lazy to extrapolate that data to pigeonhole the bulk of leavers as elderly racists or the uneducated", yes, I agree, I haven't said the "bulk" of leavers in anything I described either.

    I hear what you are saying on compromise, I agree compromise is what's needed, and if it can't be reached another referendum like above is needed to solidify a final decision of what the country will do.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    This morning 5 no deals / 2 deals / 59 remain.
    (will be interesting to track hence the post)
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 1,716
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:

    Well it's certainly not a "left" "right" issue and I think it's disingenuous to assume that the leavers can be characterized as
    being either stupid, racist, unthinking or any combination thereof

    My point was never that all are, so I think you're still reading something that's not said. I can say I am completely certain that SOME of them are somewhat racist etc, that's all, and that probably runs into multi-millions. It's something Brexit voters who aren't racist or whatever have to accept, their vote was propped up by people that are.

    Note you've also said "it's lazy to extrapolate that data to pigeonhole the bulk of leavers as elderly racists or the uneducated", yes, I agree, I haven't said the "bulk" of leavers in anything I described either.

    I hear what you are saying on compromise, I agree compromise is what's needed, and if it can't be reached another referendum like above is needed to solidify a final decision of what the country will do.

    I think if you say things like "multi millions" of the 17.4 million who voted to leave are "somewhat" racist then we can read between the lines what your true feelings are. Whether or not that is "the bulk" or "the majority" or "a lot" is moot as we will never really know. Reading 3 years of the Brexit thread has left me in little doubt about what the collective view of the CakeStop is however.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 21,989 Lives Here
    Mr Goo wrote:
    No surprise from me. Leave. Ideally with a deal, but if as to be expected EU don't want to negotiate then unfortunately it's walk away with no deal.
    How is it that the EU refusing to negotiate about the Irish border is viewed as them refusing to negotiate altogether? The international community say the GFA should be respected. Yet the British government sticking to red lines is fine.
    That people can’t see intransigence on both sides is very telling. Much easier to blame the EU for everything.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,252
    NorvernRob wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    2 No deals, 0 Deals and 53 remains at the moment.

    I'm genuinely surprised, I hadn't thought it would be that extreme for one minute.

    Have you even read the Brexit threads :lol: I thought it was supposed to be Leavers who were full of bigotry and hatred, until I started reading that. :wink:
    :D
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  • Robert88Robert88 Posts: 2,722
    mfin wrote:
    This morning 5 no deals / 2 deals / 59 remain.
    (will be interesting to track hence the post)

    I was thinking the same. Also new membership stats! :wink:
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    shortfall wrote:
    I think if you say things like "multi millions" of the 17.4 million who voted to leave are "somewhat" racist then we can read between the lines what your true feelings are.

    Well, I'd say that there are multi-millions who voted based on a racist infused version of anti-immigration, for anyone to say otherwise would be a bit weird I think. Why on earth else would attracting these people be a key aim and spend of leave campaigns marketing if they weren't out there to attract.

    It might not be a comfortable thought for some. I also have made clear I don't think it's all 17.4 million at all, it will however be a significant amount and easily enough to have swung the referendum result in favour of leave.

    If I voted leave, I'd have no problem in simply acknowledging I'd voted the same way as a mass of racists, as I certainly don't have any of those leanings myself. So, I don't really understand what the problem is.
  • sniper68sniper68 Posts: 2,887
    Same as in 2016.
    Remain.
    The absolute car crash that has transpired since the Referendum has cemented the conclusion that I voted the right way.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 1,716
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:
    I think if you say things like "multi millions" of the 17.4 million who voted to leave are "somewhat" racist then we can read between the lines what your true feelings are.

    Well, I'd say that there are multi-millions who voted based on a racist infused version of anti-immigration, for anyone to say otherwise would be a bit weird I think. Why on earth else would attracting these people be a key aim and spend of leave campaigns marketing if they weren't out there to attract.

    It might not be a comfortable thought for some. I also have made clear I don't think it's all 17.4 million at all, it will however be a significant amount and easily enough to have swung the referendum result in favour of leave.

    If I voted leave, I'd have no problem in simply acknowledging I'd voted the same way as a mass of racists, as I certainly don't have any of those leanings myself. So, I don't really understand what the problem is.

    I don't have any problem acknowledging that some racists will have voted leave, what that number is I have no idea. You say it is multi millions. I don't know how you arrive at that figure but presumably those people will have at some point voted for other political parties as well. You could equally say that they swung the balance in any given elecion. So what? What difference does it make to anything?
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    shortfall wrote:
    I don't have any problem acknowledging that some racists will have voted leave, what that number is I have no idea. You say it is multi millions. I don't know how you arrive at that figure but presumably those people will have at some point voted for other political parties as well. You could equally say that they swung the balance in any given elecion. So what? What difference does it make to anything?

    Do you really think the amount of white people voting Brexit on an anti-immigration stance - born along the lines of some twisted wish for 'national identity' based on a dislike of the colour of those on the streets, dress and appearance and religious beliefs - is not in the multi-millions?

    I think it is, whether from a softer insular conservative version of that, where the bulk lies, right up to the actual far right.

    There are a huge amount of people in this country who think in these unpalatable ways. I know we have to accept that everyone gets a vote, but it is a crying shame that those people are that prejudiced and stupid.

    Education can help, but the shining light is the unquestioning acceptance and tolerance of the younger generations.

    I accept there are other people who voted based on anti-immigration for other reasons too, but those that did so based on prejudice are a sad weight on modern society.

    Yes, I believe there are millions of them. Yes I believe it propped up the leave vote, and easily and unquestionably tilted the result.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    All of this still begs the question, "so what?" There are lots of arguments about the referendum, but arguing that it shouldn't have been held because you might reasonably predict that those who held racist views would vote Leave seems a bit weak.
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,252
    rjsterry wrote:
    All of this still begs the question, "so what?" There are lots of arguments about the referendum, but arguing that it shouldn't have been held because you might reasonably predict that those who held racist views would vote Leave seems a bit weak.
    I'm also of the view that this achieves nothing. It's not going to change the result or anything else.
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  • rjsterry wrote:
    All of this still begs the question, "so what?" There are lots of arguments about the referendum, but arguing that it shouldn't have been held because you might reasonably predict that those who held racist views would vote Leave seems a bit weak.

    He's also completely ignoring the fact that racists voted remain as well.

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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,252
    Racists have no doubt voted in every election and feferendum we have had in this country. As asked before, so what?
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  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 1,716
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Racists have no doubt voted in every election and feferendum we have had in this country. As asked before, so what?

    I think it's a roundabout way of saying that even though the referendum didnt go his way, the result doesn't really count "because racists..."
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    edited 8 September
    rjsterry wrote:
    All of this still begs the question, "so what?" There are lots of arguments about the referendum, but arguing that it shouldn't have been held because you might reasonably predict that those who held racist views would vote Leave seems a bit weak.

    I've never argued that it shouldn't have been held for any reason. You've read something into it that's not there. A straw man argument.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    shortfall wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Racists have no doubt voted in every election and feferendum we have had in this country. As asked before, so what?

    I think it's a roundabout way of saying that even though the referendum didnt go his way, the result doesn't really count "because racists..."

    No, it's not a roundabout way of saying something else at all. There's no agenda at all. Merely pointing out that the result was very likely effected by those with these sorts of views. Nothing more.

    The referendum result is what the referendum result is. It's just numbers of who ticked what box.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    mfin wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    All of this still begs the question, "so what?" There are lots of arguments about the referendum, but arguing that it shouldn't have been held because you might reasonably predict that those who held racist views would vote Leave seems a bit weak.

    I've never argued that it shouldn't have been held for any reason. You've read something into it that's not there. A straw man argument.

    Fair enough. I'm genuinely not sure what your point is, beyond an untested observation.
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,783 Lives Here
    So from a scan no-one would vote differently?
  • Rolf FRolf F Posts: 16,126
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:
    Asking this question in Cake Stop is like asking Sun readers if they want the return of pictures of women with big t1ts in their paper.

    Really? Why are people interested in cycling anti-brexit then? Doesn't make sense why there would be a correlation.

    Maybe you mean it's full of people who like discussing things and thinking them through :)

    Two reasons maybe. One is that in the scheme of things most of us are probably reasonably successful - at least in that we can run a hobby that isn't exactly cheap for most people. Successful people don't need to blame anyone or anything else for their situation - they should be happy enough. If you aren't doing well then you'll look for someone to blame for it and for easy ways out (I bet there is a correlation between voting brexit and lottery ticket purchase) probably that involves someone else doing something rather than yourself.
    Second maybe simply that cycling is a positive hobby and brexit is inherently negative. No brexiter I have ever heard of has actually said what they want in any meaningfully considered way (ie not "it's about taking back control"). It's always "I don't want this, I don't want that". It reminds me of car adverts going on about there being 15 million option combinations available for a particular car. There seem to be almost as many brexit option combinations and each brexiter finds only one of those remotely acceptable - eg Coopster the Unfortunate calling Mays deal BRINO. They are a bunch of miserable sods and no brexit is ever going to change that - the sad thing is that they'll be just as unhappy after brexit as before.
    I wonder who they'll blame once we have left.
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