If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

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  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    As of tonight, 8 no deals, 3 deals, 100 remains.

    Quite a clear picture then.

    There wasn't any part of the leave campaign that put forward 'no deal' as a scenario or a desirable outcome, well, not that I can remember.

    'No deal' is only a function of where we are at this time that is supported by certain groups of people. I think it draws more support from those who want it 'their way at all costs' in the face of so much common sense logic going against it. Leave voters only have two directions to go, towards 'no deal' or towards 'remain', one of those works where pig-headedness and aggressive assertion are at play, or can be favoured calmly too. The other tends to work only if considered in a calm way, ie there's very little "I voted leave and I'm really pissed off with this, so yes, damn right I want us to remain now".
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 8,298
    Richard Dawkins applying his usual logical approach, and summarising my thoughts perfectly for me.
    “I am deeply pessimistic,” he says, reflecting on British prime minister Boris Johnson’s latest manoeuvrings. “I think the Brexiteers started out by having a belief it would be a good thing; it has become a religion now. It has become a faith. It has become a creed... It has become like religious zeal. They are determined to get Brexit even if they destroy the country, and Scotland breaks away in the process. It’s a form of madness.”
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  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 1,716
    mfin wrote:
    As of tonight, 8 no deals, 3 deals, 100 remains.

    Quite a clear picture then.

    There wasn't any part of the leave campaign that put forward 'no deal' as a scenario or a desirable outcome, well, not that I can remember.

    Leave voters only have two directions to go, towards 'no deal' or towards 'remain', one of those works where pig-headedness and aggressive assertion are at play, or can be favoured calmly too. The other tends to work only if considered in a calm way, ie there's very little "I voted leave and I'm really pissed off with this, so yes, damn right I want us to remain now".

    I don't remember any part of the Remain campaign that put forward "We will ignore the result of the referendum if we lose" either.

    Nice of you to pigeonhole leavers as pig headed and aggressive if they don't fall into the first of your imagined groupings but those who fall into your "remain under the circumstances" group are calm and considered. What about those who would settle for May's deal or a tweaked version of it ? What about those of us who favour the Norway option? For all your attempts at reason, your argument appears to be that there are two types of leaver; The emotional, backward, Gammon, closet racists on the one hand and then the ones who have changed their mind and now agree with you.

    Funny that.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    edited 13 September
    shortfall wrote:
    Nice of you to pigeonhole leavers as pig headed and aggressive if they don't fall into the first of your imagined groupings but those who fall into your "remain under the circumstances" group are calm and considered.

    Thanks :)
    shortfall wrote:
    What about those who would settle for May's deal or a tweaked version of it ? What about those of us who favour the Norway option?

    Well... I was reacting really to the fact that out of the two leave options on here, leaving with a deal has the least. So, yes, what about these people who want this selection of different things, across all these deal options as there seems to be just 3 of them on here for example, whereas for the absolute specific of simply 'no deal' there are 8, even though there was no campaigning for this. All too often it seems these "just exit now, get it done, no deal" are the types that act like they have thrown teddy out of the pram when they state this, but we don't see an equivalent from those who voted remain in my opinion.
    shortfall wrote:
    For all your attempts at reason, your argument appears to be that there are two types of leaver; The emotional, backward, Gammon, closet racists on the one hand and then the ones who have changed their mind and now agree with you.

    Funny that.

    Well, no that's not what I said, I was saying it is only a calm route that will result in a decision to remain.

    I get the feeling you're thinking I am emotionally invested in this, and in particular, anti-brexit, you'd have that quite wrong if you did think that. I'm quite relaxed about the brexit situation and can digest what's going on without getting annoyed at anything about it and whichever way the cookie crumbles. I'm quite relaxed about it because I know there's nothing I can do about it in truth. if there's another referendum i can vote of course, and in a GE I can vote. So, in the meantime it's watch and read as life goes on.

    It sounds like you're really quite shirty about it. Cheer up! Sending you a big hug.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    It's just possible that a self-selecting poll in a niche forum dominated by Remain sentiment tells you nothing of value.
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  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 1,716
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's just possible that a self-selecting poll in a niche forum dominated by Remain sentiment tells you nothing of value.

    I don't think he gets it, but hey, it's great to see he's remaining really relaxed about it all. Honest he is :D
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    shortfall wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's just possible that a self-selecting poll in a niche forum dominated by Remain sentiment tells you nothing of value.

    I don't think he gets it, but hey, it's great to see he's remaining really relaxed about it all. Honest he is :D

    Yea, I genuinely am. It's really quite easy to watch what's going on and to think about it without getting at all het up. Yesterday I got more het up trying to remove the plastic off the top of a new bottle of soy sauce, than I have done on following everything combined on brexit in the last few years. It's very easy to stand back from and not get emotionally invested, as is observing those that do seem to spit their dummy out before they can say a word relating to brexit.

    As for the poll itself here, I genuinely had no idea which way it would fall, I don't hang around in cake stop enough to even imagine it has been voted like it has. It sounds like some people think it was obvious, but I'm sure a lot of people like me would have not forecast it and find the results interesting.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    rjsterry wrote:
    It's just possible that a self-selecting poll in a niche forum dominated by Remain sentiment tells you nothing of value.

    No, it tells me who clicked on what. I knew that. Common sense. Not too challenging.

    The real referendum also interestingly only told us who ticked what. I suppose that has no value either, let's forget the whole thing happened eh.

    I think a lot of people need a big cuddle.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    You can't even say whether it really is representative of Cakestop readers.
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  • haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,730
    Just for balance, given the option to remain I'd go remain, but looking at the options currently available I don't see some variation of a deal whilst leaving NI in the customs union etc so we have sufficient grey area to get what we want as a necessarily bad thing.
  • LongshotLongshot Posts: 394
    Daniel B wrote:
    Richard Dawkins applying his usual logical approach, and summarising my thoughts perfectly for me.
    “I am deeply pessimistic,” he says, reflecting on British prime minister Boris Johnson’s latest manoeuvrings. “I think the Brexiteers started out by having a belief it would be a good thing; it has become a religion now. It has become a faith. It has become a creed... It has become like religious zeal. They are determined to get Brexit even if they destroy the country, and Scotland breaks away in the process. It’s a form of madness.”


    Much as I dislike Richard Dawkins, he's got a point here or at least that's the way it seems. A lot of Leavers had rational and creditable reasons for their choice. I'm hearing less of those now and just rhetoric about how it must be done whatever the outcome. Come on Leave, persuade me. I'm open to the concept, just tell me what the real benefits are and how we get them.
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,782 Lives Here
    Longshot wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:
    Richard Dawkins applying his usual logical approach, and summarising my thoughts perfectly for me.
    “I am deeply pessimistic,” he says, reflecting on British prime minister Boris Johnson’s latest manoeuvrings. “I think the Brexiteers started out by having a belief it would be a good thing; it has become a religion now. It has become a faith. It has become a creed... It has become like religious zeal. They are determined to get Brexit even if they destroy the country, and Scotland breaks away in the process. It’s a form of madness.”


    Much as I dislike Richard Dawkins, he's got a point here or at least that's the way it seems. A lot of Leavers had rational and creditable reasons for their choice. I'm hearing less of those now and just rhetoric about how it must be done whatever the outcome. Come on Leave, persuade me. I'm open to the concept, just tell me what the real benefits are and how we get them.

    It's not much different in remain circles either, tbf. I mean, there is less of a leap of faith required to believe in the value of remaining, but there are definitely remain cultists out there.
  • haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,730
    It's the same with most polarised political views and ideologies, the same types of people become entrenched.

    "Opinion: In the age of populism, rigid minds are attracted by extremes... susceptibility to being gamed, both cognitively and digitally'
    https://www.ft.com/content/c3b7486a-d2e ... ef889b4137


    As a slight aside, I was listening to a thing yesterday about media bias but one of the contributors was explaining that 'common sense politics' is actually a fairly narrow band of policies which change quite drastically in short spaces of time. To me it shows a lack of self awareness from people when they refuse to consider their views in that context.
  • ProssPross Posts: 21,040
    Longshot wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:
    Richard Dawkins applying his usual logical approach, and summarising my thoughts perfectly for me.
    “I am deeply pessimistic,” he says, reflecting on British prime minister Boris Johnson’s latest manoeuvrings. “I think the Brexiteers started out by having a belief it would be a good thing; it has become a religion now. It has become a faith. It has become a creed... It has become like religious zeal. They are determined to get Brexit even if they destroy the country, and Scotland breaks away in the process. It’s a form of madness.”


    Much as I dislike Richard Dawkins, he's got a point here or at least that's the way it seems. A lot of Leavers had rational and creditable reasons for their choice. I'm hearing less of those now and just rhetoric about how it must be done whatever the outcome. Come on Leave, persuade me. I'm open to the concept, just tell me what the real benefits are and how we get them.

    It's not much different in remain circles either, tbf. I mean, there is less of a leap of faith required to believe in the value of remaining, but there are definitely remain cultists out there.

    Meh, my reasons for voting for remain was I knew what it entailed whereas no-one offered any detail about what leaving meant. I don't think everything about the EU is perfect by a long way but we had one of the strongest voices in steering where it goes. All that's happened post-Brexit is that it has been made clear that no-one who wants to leave has a coherent view of where they want to go let alone how to get there. If someone put forward clear proposals with all the pros and cons in relation to the end product and the journey to get there and opened them up to scrutiny by relevant experts and the conclusions allowed me to believe it would be an improvement I would change my vote. The fact no-one even seems to be trying to do this is telling though. I've given up asking Brexiteers for their reasons as you still just get those woolly, simplistic things like 'taking back control' and, obviously, 'will of the people'.
  • haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,730
    Pross wrote:
    Longshot wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:
    Richard Dawkins applying his usual logical approach, and summarising my thoughts perfectly for me.
    “I am deeply pessimistic,” he says, reflecting on British prime minister Boris Johnson’s latest manoeuvrings. “I think the Brexiteers started out by having a belief it would be a good thing; it has become a religion now. It has become a faith. It has become a creed... It has become like religious zeal. They are determined to get Brexit even if they destroy the country, and Scotland breaks away in the process. It’s a form of madness.”


    Much as I dislike Richard Dawkins, he's got a point here or at least that's the way it seems. A lot of Leavers had rational and creditable reasons for their choice. I'm hearing less of those now and just rhetoric about how it must be done whatever the outcome. Come on Leave, persuade me. I'm open to the concept, just tell me what the real benefits are and how we get them.

    It's not much different in remain circles either, tbf. I mean, there is less of a leap of faith required to believe in the value of remaining, but there are definitely remain cultists out there.

    Meh, my reasons for voting for remain was I knew what it entailed whereas no-one offered any detail about what leaving meant. I don't think everything about the EU is perfect by a long way but we had one of the strongest voices in steering where it goes. All that's happened post-Brexit is that it has been made clear that no-one who wants to leave has a coherent view of where they want to go let alone how to get there. If someone put forward clear proposals with all the pros and cons in relation to the end product and the journey to get there and opened them up to scrutiny by relevant experts and the conclusions allowed me to believe it would be an improvement I would change my vote. The fact no-one even seems to be trying to do this is telling though. I've given up asking Brexiteers for their reasons as you still just get those woolly, simplistic things like 'taking back control' and, obviously, 'will of the people'.

    My thoughts exactly, my only other reason for voting remain was that it seems unnecessarily risky at the time given our financial position, the time to do it if you wanted to was in the booming 90s or something (right when no one really cared because everything was going well).

    The fact that both sides think they are on the rational side and the other side is full of total mentalists probably tells us that both sides are wrong. I know plenty of rational people on both sides and would be prepared to change my mind if the balance of risk changed.

    To be tempted to the leave side they would need something concrete for it to swing positively, currently it's in varying states of dangerous with some wild speculation about how good it might be. When even the very optimistic brexitiers have been reduced to saying 'we are fairly confident won't need to ration food or medication' I don't see it swinging in their favour. After a few years of disruption it is conceivable that there may be some benefits but I'm not sure what they are or why they would benefit me
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 1,972
    Longshot wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:
    Richard Dawkins applying his usual logical approach, and summarising my thoughts perfectly for me.
    “I am deeply pessimistic,” he says, reflecting on British prime minister Boris Johnson’s latest manoeuvrings. “I think the Brexiteers started out by having a belief it would be a good thing; it has become a religion now. It has become a faith. It has become a creed... It has become like religious zeal. They are determined to get Brexit even if they destroy the country, and Scotland breaks away in the process. It’s a form of madness.”


    Much as I dislike Richard Dawkins, he's got a point here or at least that's the way it seems. A lot of Leavers had rational and creditable reasons for their choice. I'm hearing less of those now and just rhetoric about how it must be done whatever the outcome. Come on Leave, persuade me. I'm open to the concept, just tell me what the real benefits are and how we get them.

    It's not much different in remain circles either, tbf. I mean, there is less of a leap of faith required to believe in the value of remaining, but there are definitely remain cultists out there.
    At least with remain, we know what we're getting. It's no change, its things as they are. Not sure how that is a leap of faith?

    We still have no idea what will happen with leave, even with a deal. No-deal is clearly a censored show, but a deal is only going to cover our withdrawal from the EU and we will still need to negotiate a future relationship with both the EU. Not to mention all the years of negotiating with other countries for trade deals.
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  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 1,716
    edited 13 September
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    , I don't hang around in cake stop enough to even imagine it has been voted like it has.
    You have 848 posts in Cakestop so it's a bit of a stretch to try and sustain the argument that you were unaware of it's Remain bias. When you ask a question in an echo chamber it's sort of predictable that everyone is going to agree with you. Try conducting a similar survey in a pub in Wakefield or Hull and let us know how you get on. This thread appears to be just an excuse for you to smear Leave voters as angry, racist Gammons whilst positioning yourself as being really cool and chilled out about the whole thing. The Brexit thread already exists if all you wanted was some more confirmation bias.
  • haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,730
    shortfall wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    , I don't hang around in cake stop enough to even imagine it has been voted like it has.
    You have 848 posts in Cakestop so it's a bit of a stretch to try and sustain the argument that you were unaware of it's Remain bias. When you ask a question in an echo chamber it's sort of predictable that everyone is going to agree with you. Try conducting a similar survey in a pub in Wakefield or Hull and let us know how you get on. This thread appears to be just an excuse for you to smear Leave voters as angry, racist Gammons whilst positioning yourself as being really cool and chilled out about the whole thing. The Brexit thread already exists if all you wanted is some more confirmation bias.

    By definition, if you are motivated to vote for change you are likely to be annoyed about something. It's understandable that leave voters would sound angry when you talk to them.
  • LongshotLongshot Posts: 394
    Pross wrote:
    Longshot wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:
    Richard Dawkins applying his usual logical approach, and summarising my thoughts perfectly for me.
    “I am deeply pessimistic,” he says, reflecting on British prime minister Boris Johnson’s latest manoeuvrings. “I think the Brexiteers started out by having a belief it would be a good thing; it has become a religion now. It has become a faith. It has become a creed... It has become like religious zeal. They are determined to get Brexit even if they destroy the country, and Scotland breaks away in the process. It’s a form of madness.”


    Much as I dislike Richard Dawkins, he's got a point here or at least that's the way it seems. A lot of Leavers had rational and creditable reasons for their choice. I'm hearing less of those now and just rhetoric about how it must be done whatever the outcome. Come on Leave, persuade me. I'm open to the concept, just tell me what the real benefits are and how we get them.

    It's not much different in remain circles either, tbf. I mean, there is less of a leap of faith required to believe in the value of remaining, but there are definitely remain cultists out there.

    Meh, my reasons for voting for remain was I knew what it entailed whereas no-one offered any detail about what leaving meant. I don't think everything about the EU is perfect by a long way but we had one of the strongest voices in steering where it goes. All that's happened post-Brexit is that it has been made clear that no-one who wants to leave has a coherent view of where they want to go let alone how to get there. If someone put forward clear proposals with all the pros and cons in relation to the end product and the journey to get there and opened them up to scrutiny by relevant experts and the conclusions allowed me to believe it would be an improvement I would change my vote. The fact no-one even seems to be trying to do this is telling though. I've given up asking Brexiteers for their reasons as you still just get those woolly, simplistic things like 'taking back control' and, obviously, 'will of the people'.

    This
    You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 10,666
    Longshot wrote:
    Come on Leave, persuade me. I'm open to the concept, just tell me what the real benefits are and how we get them.

    Like any other cult, you have to believe before you can see the benefits.
  • haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,730
    Imposter wrote:
    Longshot wrote:
    Come on Leave, persuade me. I'm open to the concept, just tell me what the real benefits are and how we get them.

    Like any other cult, you have to believe before you can see the benefits.

    I can see the benefit of running our own land use grants rather than using CAP, but I don't think that it's worth the risk, and I don't trust UK politicians to do it any better than EU ones. The only benefit of the EU ones is that the pace of policy swing is much slower than the UK switching between Trump and Corbyn every few years.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    rjsterry wrote:
    You can't even say whether it really is representative of Cakestop readers.

    No, and that is why I answered "No, it tells me who clicked on what. I knew that. Common sense. Not too challenging".

    The clue is in my words as to what I meant.
  • nitrousoxidenitrousoxide Posts: 3,822
    Having only just seen this thread and having not looked at other replies, I'll be surprised if I'm the only one who regrets voting leave in 2016, not taking the time to look up the claims by both sides prior to voting and being suckered in by bits like that ****** lying bus.
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  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    shortfall wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    , I don't hang around in cake stop enough to even imagine it has been voted like it has.
    You have 848 posts in Cakestop so it's a bit of a stretch to try and sustain the argument that you were unaware of it's Remain bias. When you ask a question in an echo chamber it's sort of predictable that everyone is going to agree with you. Try conducting a similar survey in a pub in Wakefield or Hull and let us know how you get on. This thread appears to be just an excuse for you to smear Leave voters as angry, racist Gammons whilst positioning yourself as being really cool and chilled out about the whole thing. The Brexit thread already exists if all you wanted was some more confirmation bias.

    Yeah, I don't have many posts on brexit or politics do I though? Neither do I spend a wink of my time trying to suss out any trends of political leanings on here. So, I have no idea it is an echo chamber. You really are just making up what I think and getting it wrong all the time, so why not stop guessing, relax and assume I say what I mean.

    This thread is a bunch of people discussing things, if you don't like it or find it a bit annoying then my suggestion is you relax and breathe out. I'm not trying to paint myself as being "really cool and chilled out about the whole thing", I genuinely don't have any emotional investment in it myself. If other people, or any section of the population want to get all red faced and angry about brexit then I must admit I find that pretty pathetic. People should be able to look at the subject of brexit without getting all wound up and pissy.

    Anyway, here and there you do keep trying to make out I am saying something I am not. Don't worry yourself. Sending you a big kiss and hoping you have a lovely weekend in the sun!
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,244
    shortfall wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    shortfall wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    , I don't hang around in cake stop enough to even imagine it has been voted like it has.
    You have 848 posts in Cakestop so it's a bit of a stretch to try and sustain the argument that you were unaware of it's Remain bias. When you ask a question in an echo chamber it's sort of predictable that everyone is going to agree with you. Try conducting a similar survey in a pub in Wakefield or Hull and let us know how you get on. This thread appears to be just an excuse for you to smear Leave voters as angry, racist Gammons whilst positioning yourself as being really cool and chilled out about the whole thing. The Brexit thread already exists if all you wanted was some more confirmation bias.
    :)

    To be fair, he's not the only one.
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  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 5,279
    Pot. Stir. Da boy can't help it.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,244
    orraloon wrote:
    Pot. Stir. Da boy can't help it.
    No, but interesting to see who responded to that comment :wink:
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  • Longshot wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:
    Richard Dawkins applying his usual logical approach, and summarising my thoughts perfectly for me.
    “I am deeply pessimistic,” he says, reflecting on British prime minister Boris Johnson’s latest manoeuvrings. “I think the Brexiteers started out by having a belief it would be a good thing; it has become a religion now. It has become a faith. It has become a creed... It has become like religious zeal. They are determined to get Brexit even if they destroy the country, and Scotland breaks away in the process. It’s a form of madness.”


    Much as I dislike Richard Dawkins, he's got a point here or at least that's the way it seems. A lot of Leavers had rational and creditable reasons for their choice. I'm hearing less of those now and just rhetoric about how it must be done whatever the outcome. Come on Leave, persuade me. I'm open to the concept, just tell me what the real benefits are and how we get them.

    I am guessing when you mean economic benefits of leaving. If so then Farage, Gove and co have never claimed any.
  • Longshot wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:
    Richard Dawkins applying his usual logical approach, and summarising my thoughts perfectly for me.
    “I am deeply pessimistic,” he says, reflecting on British prime minister Boris Johnson’s latest manoeuvrings. “I think the Brexiteers started out by having a belief it would be a good thing; it has become a religion now. It has become a faith. It has become a creed... It has become like religious zeal. They are determined to get Brexit even if they destroy the country, and Scotland breaks away in the process. It’s a form of madness.”


    Much as I dislike Richard Dawkins, he's got a point here or at least that's the way it seems. A lot of Leavers had rational and creditable reasons for their choice. I'm hearing less of those now and just rhetoric about how it must be done whatever the outcome. Come on Leave, persuade me. I'm open to the concept, just tell me what the real benefits are and how we get them.

    I am guessing when you mean economic benefits of leaving. If so then Farage, Gove and co have never claimed any.

    Never publicly and certainly never for the common folk but I am totally confident that the "improvements" they would like to introduce to make the UK's economy "more competitive" will certainly have a positive effect on their personal economies and those of their friends/people in the know. And if this doesn't work out then Farage at least has stated that he will simply leave: https://www.politico.eu/article/nigel-f ... ve-abroad/
  • Rolf FRolf F Posts: 16,126
    Longshot wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:
    Richard Dawkins applying his usual logical approach, and summarising my thoughts perfectly for me.
    “I am deeply pessimistic,” he says, reflecting on British prime minister Boris Johnson’s latest manoeuvrings. “I think the Brexiteers started out by having a belief it would be a good thing; it has become a religion now. It has become a faith. It has become a creed... It has become like religious zeal. They are determined to get Brexit even if they destroy the country, and Scotland breaks away in the process. It’s a form of madness.”


    Much as I dislike Richard Dawkins, he's got a point here or at least that's the way it seems. A lot of Leavers had rational and creditable reasons for their choice. I'm hearing less of those now and just rhetoric about how it must be done whatever the outcome. Come on Leave, persuade me. I'm open to the concept, just tell me what the real benefits are and how we get them.

    I am guessing when you mean economic benefits of leaving. If so then Farage, Gove and co have never claimed any.

    I think it was all about "taking back control" and then popping over to Europe and grovelling a trade deal out of them that reflected our power, status and wealth in the world (ie a pretty poor trade deal from our perspective).
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