TDF 2019, Stage 18: Embrun > Valloire 25/07/2019 - 208 km *Spoilers*

gsk82

r0bh wrote:

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

The verdict on R5's bespoke prog was that it was wrong - in terms of racing tactics and team values - for Thomas to break away in that situation.

Sky/Ineos's tactics are always wrong in the eyes of the commentariat!

Whether it was the thought process at the time or not, without that dig he'd have lost time to Alaphillippe on the descent.

He must also have been wondering why the rest were just trundling along. Where they all done in? That and someone has to pressure Alaphillippe

I don't think it actually made much difference to Bernals advantage.

DeVlaeminck

To be fair Bernal looks their best bet - if it had been Froome ahead would Thomas have attacked from behind - I doubt it.

r0bh

gsk82 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

The verdict on R5's bespoke prog was that it was wrong - in terms of racing tactics and team values - for Thomas to break away in that situation.

Sky/Ineos's tactics are always wrong in the eyes of the commentariat!

Whether it was the thought process at the time or not, without that dig he'd have lost time to Alaphillippe on the descent.

He must also have been wondering why the rest were just trundling along. Where they all done in? That and someone has to pressure Alaphillippe

I don't think it actually made much difference to Bernals advantage.

Yeah maybe it didn't work out for Thomas but at least he tried something unlike the rest of them!

gweeds

Damned if you do....

blazing_saddles

gsk82 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

The verdict on R5's bespoke prog was that it was wrong - in terms of racing tactics and team values - for Thomas to break away in that situation.

Sky/Ineos's tactics are always wrong in the eyes of the commentariat!

Whether it was the thought process at the time or not, without that dig he'd have lost time to Alaphillippe on the descent.

He must also have been wondering why the rest were just trundling along. Where they all done in? That and someone has to pressure Alaphillippe

I don't think it actually made much difference to Bernals advantage.

This.

I made the same point during the race, when Alaphillippe rejoined the GC. Seemed the obvious tactic to me.
Alaphillippe has since confessed to taking risks on that descent, so imagine lesser descenders trying to keep up.
Like you, I wonder why the rest were happy just to sit there. I think they were pretty much on the limit. Which, if correct, must be good news for Alaphilippe. The bad news for him, must be the resurrection of Quintana and those Movistar boys.

ridgerider

The way I saw it was G putting in a planned attack once Bernal had caught up his time loss to him, so that the two of them were even stevens and nicely set up for tactical option over the next two stages.

gsk82

Blazing Saddles wrote:

gsk82 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

The verdict on R5's bespoke prog was that it was wrong - in terms of racing tactics and team values - for Thomas to break away in that situation.

Sky/Ineos's tactics are always wrong in the eyes of the commentariat!

Whether it was the thought process at the time or not, without that dig he'd have lost time to Alaphillippe on the descent.

He must also have been wondering why the rest were just trundling along. Where they all done in? That and someone has to pressure Alaphillippe

I don't think it actually made much difference to Bernals advantage.

This.

I made the same point during the race, when Alaphillippe rejoined the GC. Seemed the obvious tactic to me.
Alaphillippe has since confessed to taking risks on that descent, so imagine lesser descenders trying to keep up.
Like you, I wonder why the rest were happy just to sit there. I think they were pretty much on the limit. Which, if correct, must be good news for Alaphilippe. The bad news for him, must be the resurrection of Quintana and those Movistar boys.

Im not sure they were all in the limit. They all managed to chase Thomas down. I just think that they're not winners. They're all too concerned with losing what they have and will leave it late, hoping that everyone else falls away. Can anyone imagine Froome riding like that?

RichN95.

Even if it didn't take time on Alaphilippe, it put him in trouble and into the red. This will make it harder for him today. Stages have to be seen as part of a block of racing rather than the 'take each stage as it comes' philosophy.

RichN95.

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Like you, I wonder why the rest were happy just to sit there. I think they were pretty much on the limit. Which, if correct, must be good news for Alaphilippe. The bad news for him, must be the resurrection of Quintana and those Movistar boys.

I wonder what the psychology of them are. Thomas has an advantage - he has won this race already. Bernal and Buchmann potentially have another decade of this. But surely for Pinot and Kruijswijk it's now or never. Maybe they are on their limit, but maybe they are also scared to try anything until Saturday.

ContrelaMontre

I don't get this thought process that Bernal is clearly Ineos's strongest rider and somehow the team need to throw everything behind him as I've seen some suggest. Thomas could easily overhaul his deficit to Bernal with time bonuses. We will find out today and tomorrow but Bernal put just 30 seconds into the other GC guys, but Pinot and Steven K refused to chase him (why tow Thomas to be attacked by him). I still don't think it's clear who will win this Tour but Alaphilippe and Thomas have clearly been the best if you consider their performances in the TT, which is the race of truth after all.

RichN95.

r0bh wrote:

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

The verdict on R5's bespoke prog was that it was wrong - in terms of racing tactics and team values - for Thomas to break away in that situation.

Sky/Ineos's tactics are always wrong in the eyes of the commentariat!

The problem with the commentariat is that they take certain things for granted. In this case that Alaphilippe will lose his advantage. It will just happen. No need for anyone to do anything to make it happen.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Anyone who wants to take the yellow jersey off JA has to attack on stage 19 when the GC group reach ~2000m on Col de l’Iseran, IMO. Yes, there's ~36Km of the stage still to go after the HC summit, but G and Bernal need to make use of their high altitude training on Teide.

phreak

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I don't get this thought process that Bernal is clearly Ineos's strongest rider and somehow the team need to throw everything behind him as I've seen some suggest. Thomas could easily overhaul his deficit to Bernal with time bonuses. We will find out today and tomorrow but Bernal put just 30 seconds into the other GC guys, but Pinot and Steven K refused to chase him (why tow Thomas to be attacked by him). I still don't think it's clear who will win this Tour but Alaphilippe and Thomas have clearly been the best if you consider their performances in the TT, which is the race of truth after all.

I think he had 45 seconds when Thomas decided to attack and pulled a few of the others with him. It would surely have made more sense to force Pinot et al to chase, but there you go. He obviously thought he could get away solo, but didn't have it in him.

ContrelaMontre

phreak wrote:

I think he had 45 seconds when Thomas decided to attack and pulled a few of the others with him. It would surely have made more sense to force Pinot et al to chase, but there you go. He obviously thought he could get away solo, but didn't have it in him.

A different obvious interpretation is that Thomas was hoping for Pinot et al to chase and they didn't so he felt he had to go to drop JA. Having dropped JA he didn't want to just tow the others to Bernal

Alejandrosdog

phreak wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I don't get this thought process that Bernal is clearly Ineos's strongest rider and somehow the team need to throw everything behind him as I've seen some suggest. Thomas could easily overhaul his deficit to Bernal with time bonuses. We will find out today and tomorrow but Bernal put just 30 seconds into the other GC guys, but Pinot and Steven K refused to chase him (why tow Thomas to be attacked by him). I still don't think it's clear who will win this Tour but Alaphilippe and Thomas have clearly been the best if you consider their performances in the TT, which is the race of truth after all.

I think he had 45 seconds when Thomas decided to attack and pulled a few of the others with him. It would surely have made more sense to force Pinot et al to chase, but there you go. He obviously thought he could get away solo, but didn't have it in him.

That’s how it looked to me too. Perhaps he did want to ride up to Bernal but he just didn’t appear to have the explosive acceleration necessary to force a significant gap and maintain. Unlike the two Colombians today.

bobmcstuff

ContrelaMontre wrote:

phreak wrote:

I think he had 45 seconds when Thomas decided to attack and pulled a few of the others with him. It would surely have made more sense to force Pinot et al to chase, but there you go. He obviously thought he could get away solo, but didn't have it in him.

A different obvious interpretation is that Thomas was hoping for Pinot et al to chase and they didn't so he felt he had to go to drop JA. Having dropped JA he didn't want to just tow the others to Bernal

That is more or less what Thomas said after the stage - once Alaphillippe got back in the wheels he felt he had to sit up.

ContrelaMontre

Today's summit finish will tell us about the relative strengths of the top 6. I don't think anything can be taken for granted

phreak

ContrelaMontre wrote:

phreak wrote:

I think he had 45 seconds when Thomas decided to attack and pulled a few of the others with him. It would surely have made more sense to force Pinot et al to chase, but there you go. He obviously thought he could get away solo, but didn't have it in him.

A different obvious interpretation is that Thomas was hoping for Pinot et al to chase and they didn't so he felt he had to go to drop JA. Having dropped JA he didn't want to just tow the others to Bernal

Bernal was half way to taking the yellow jersey, who was clearly on the ropes. What would have happened if the group had said "you chase" to JA?

RichN95.

phreak wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

phreak wrote:

I think he had 45 seconds when Thomas decided to attack and pulled a few of the others with him. It would surely have made more sense to force Pinot et al to chase, but there you go. He obviously thought he could get away solo, but didn't have it in him.

A different obvious interpretation is that Thomas was hoping for Pinot et al to chase and they didn't so he felt he had to go to drop JA. Having dropped JA he didn't want to just tow the others to Bernal

Bernal was half way to taking the yellow jersey, who was clearly on the ropes. What would have happened if the group had said "you chase" to JA?

He did chase. Or at least Enric Mas did on his behalf. But he did it at a pace JA was comfortable with.

No_Ta_Doctor

phreak wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

phreak wrote:

I think he had 45 seconds when Thomas decided to attack and pulled a few of the others with him. It would surely have made more sense to force Pinot et al to chase, but there you go. He obviously thought he could get away solo, but didn't have it in him.

A different obvious interpretation is that Thomas was hoping for Pinot et al to chase and they didn't so he felt he had to go to drop JA. Having dropped JA he didn't want to just tow the others to Bernal

Bernal was half way to taking the yellow jersey, who was clearly on the ropes. What would have happened if the group had said "you chase" to JA?

JA would have carried on cycling at the same speed he already was, Pinot and Kruijswijk would have sat in with him, possibly attacked in a burst Thomas couldn't match (if it was Pinot). If they got to the top together JA would have attacked and possibly gapped the others on the descent. It's possible that Pinot (attack on climb) or Alaphilippe (attack on descent) could have reached Bernal and neutralised him.

gsk82

No tA Doctor wrote:

phreak wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

phreak wrote:

I think he had 45 seconds when Thomas decided to attack and pulled a few of the others with him. It would surely have made more sense to force Pinot et al to chase, but there you go. He obviously thought he could get away solo, but didn't have it in him.

A different obvious interpretation is that Thomas was hoping for Pinot et al to chase and they didn't so he felt he had to go to drop JA. Having dropped JA he didn't want to just tow the others to Bernal

Bernal was half way to taking the yellow jersey, who was clearly on the ropes. What would have happened if the group had said "you chase" to JA?

JA would have carried on cycling at the same speed he already was, Pinot and Kruijswijk would have sat in with him, possibly attacked in a burst Thomas couldn't match (if it was Pinot). If they got to the top together JA would have attacked and possibly gapped the others on the descent. It's possible that Pinot (attack on climb) or Alaphilippe (attack on descent) could have reached Bernal and neutralised him.

I don't see anyway anyone was getting back to Bernal. But other than that i agree completely. Thomas didnt chase Bernal, he didn't try to bridge across to him. He tried to do Alaphillippe, because no one else tried to.

blazing_saddles

I just watched the top of the Galibier action again.
The two guys who chased Thomas; Buchmann and Kruijswijk, both ended up on the rivet, when Pinot attacked.
Kruijswijk in particular had started to struggle, momentarily getting gapped by Buchmann, who in turn wasn't able to hold Landa's wheel.

So, I reckon it's now slimmed down to just Ineos or Pinot to knock Alaphilippe off his perch.

amrushton

geraint would have won this if Alaphilippe hadnt been so tenacious (good on him). Just get on with it. All sitting on Ineos' wheel and following G. next year they'll complain that Froome and then Ineos train make it impossible to race. Send Bernal off up the road and let them all chase him - they have to do it or accept 1 & 2 on the podium has already been booked.