TDF 2019, Stage 15: Limoux > Foix Prat d'Albis 21/07/2019 - 185 km *Spoilers*

m.r.m.

hypster wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

I'd wager that overtraining is more a problem for most than training too little. They all look in shape compared to the likes of Ullrich or even a comparably less talented/accomplished Betancur of yonder.

There are multiple examples of riders suffering an injury lightening their racing/training schedule and coming back to win (like Mathew Hayman in Paris Roubaix for example).

Bardet, Quintana, Martin, Yates (A), Nibali etc, etc, have obviously put way too much into it and not tapered enough (again!) - LOL!

Bardet - is in physical shape, probably needs a coaching change since his isn't working for him
Quintana - I don't know why he is this bad
Martin - isn't a genuine GC contender. Same as Bauke Mollema or (still young) Bob Jungels or (currently) Rohan Dennis
Adam Yates - is a one day rider or 1 week stage racer. Has shown nothing to honestly be considered a proper GC contender
Nibali - rode the Giro trying to win and is as such overtrained for the Tour (in the context of what we are talking about)

My point was, it's rather easy to sit back from our armchairs and accuse professional riders of not caring and not working hard enough. I simply doubt that is often the case. I'm sure it sometimes is, but I'd expect them to more often be putting the time and effort in, but to either not be training correctly or to be doing too much (incorrectly).

hypster

I'm not saying they are not putting the time in, that would be ridiculous. The point is they are not focussing their efforts on even competing in the TdF so little point in being here in my opinion. I don't know why Movistar persevere with Quintana for instance and obviously they're not for not much longer.

It's not hard to see why Sky have dominated for so long. They have comitted riders who are trained and honed to perfection to perform one particular task at one particular time.

bobmcstuff

hypster wrote:

I'm not saying they are not putting the time in, that would be ridiculous. The point is they are not focussing their efforts on even competing in the TdF so little point in being here in my opinion. I don't know why Movistar persevere with Quintana for instance and obviously they're not for not much longer.

If Nibali is on your team and he wants to ride the Tour presumably it is quite hard to say no - one of the greatest active riders.

There's other things to ride the TDF for than the overall - I assume Nibali has his eyes on a mountain stage. He's not here for fun.

I agree Quintana is a let down (again).

RichN95.

bobmcstuff wrote:

hypster wrote:

I'm not saying they are not putting the time in, that would be ridiculous. The point is they are not focussing their efforts on even competing in the TdF so little point in being here in my opinion. I don't know why Movistar persevere with Quintana for instance and obviously they're not for not much longer.

If Nibali is on your team and he wants to ride the Tour presumably it is quite hard to say no - one of the greatest active riders.

There's other things to ride the TDF for than the overall - I assume Nibali has his eyes on a mountain stage. He's not here for fun.

My guess he's at the Tour as a deal with his sponsors to allow him to focus on the Giro. They'll want their top man in the the biggest race one way or another.

FocusZing

https://twitter.com/i/status/1153336052901437441

Alaphilippe talking about yesterday's defence in yellow.

Pross

M.R.M. wrote:

hypster wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

I'd wager that overtraining is more a problem for most than training too little. They all look in shape compared to the likes of Ullrich or even a comparably less talented/accomplished Betancur of yonder.

There are multiple examples of riders suffering an injury lightening their racing/training schedule and coming back to win (like Mathew Hayman in Paris Roubaix for example).

Bardet, Quintana, Martin, Yates (A), Nibali etc, etc, have obviously put way too much into it and not tapered enough (again!) - LOL!

Bardet - is in physical shape, probably needs a coaching change since his isn't working for him
Quintana - I don't know why he is this bad
Martin - isn't a genuine GC contender. Same as Bauke Mollema or (still young) Bob Jungels or (currently) Rohan Dennis
Adam Yates - is a one day rider or 1 week stage racer. Has shown nothing to honestly be considered a proper GC contender
Nibali - rode the Giro trying to win and is as such overtrained for the Tour (in the context of what we are talking about)

My point was, it's rather easy to sit back from our armchairs and accuse professional riders of not caring and not working hard enough. I simply doubt that is often the case. I'm sure it sometimes is, but I'd expect them to more often be putting the time and effort in, but to either not be training correctly or to be doing too much (incorrectly).

Do we not count a 4th place finish in the Tour as a reasonable reason to consider him a GC contender?

thegibdog

Blazing Saddles wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

I don’t think anyone is bemoaning it - it’s (an exciting) part of bike racing. It would just be a galling way to lose the tour. If I were Pinot I’d be happier losing the race by over 1:40 rather than knowing that messing up on that one stage was what cost the title.

How about Thomas getting taken out by Woods on stage 8 and losing 26 seconds to Pinot?
Or Fuglsang getting face planted by a Bahrain 1-2?
Landa lost 2'-09" in those same crosswinds, after being in that lead group, only to end up being put in a ditch.

All racing incidents that go down in the 3 week accumulative gains and losses columns of those riders, that may ultimately cost any one of them the race, too.

Equally galling, no?

That's why they call them Grand Tours.

I wouldn’t say that they’re equally galling, no. Personally I’d find it harder knowing that I had the best legs but lost the race due to my own mistake, rather than being involved in an incident that was beyond my control. But then I guess we’re all different.

blazing_saddles

thegibdog wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

I don’t think anyone is bemoaning it - it’s (an exciting) part of bike racing. It would just be a galling way to lose the tour. If I were Pinot I’d be happier losing the race by over 1:40 rather than knowing that messing up on that one stage was what cost the title.

How about Thomas getting taken out by Woods on stage 8 and losing 26 seconds to Pinot?
Or Fuglsang getting face planted by a Bahrain 1-2?
Landa lost 2'-09" in those same crosswinds, after being in that lead group, only to end up being put in a ditch.

All racing incidents that go down in the 3 week accumulative gains and losses columns of those riders, that may ultimately cost any one of them the race, too.

Equally galling, no?

That's why they call them Grand Tours.

I wouldn’t say that they’re equally galling, no. Personally I’d find it harder knowing that I had the best legs but lost the race due to my own mistake, rather than being involved in an incident that was beyond my control. But then I guess we’re all different.

They were all racing incidents.
You (not him) clearly feel both annoyed by and sympathetic towards his mistake.
At the same time, you feel little or no sympathy towards those who were blameless.

The best legs will be in yellow on the Champs Elysees.

thegibdog

Blazing Saddles wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

I don’t think anyone is bemoaning it - it’s (an exciting) part of bike racing. It would just be a galling way to lose the tour. If I were Pinot I’d be happier losing the race by over 1:40 rather than knowing that messing up on that one stage was what cost the title.

How about Thomas getting taken out by Woods on stage 8 and losing 26 seconds to Pinot?
Or Fuglsang getting face planted by a Bahrain 1-2?
Landa lost 2'-09" in those same crosswinds, after being in that lead group, only to end up being put in a ditch.

All racing incidents that go down in the 3 week accumulative gains and losses columns of those riders, that may ultimately cost any one of them the race, too.

Equally galling, no?

That's why they call them Grand Tours.

I wouldn’t say that they’re equally galling, no. Personally I’d find it harder knowing that I had the best legs but lost the race due to my own mistake, rather than being involved in an incident that was beyond my control. But then I guess we’re all different.

They were all racing incidents.
You (not him) clearly feel both annoyed by and sympathetic towards his mistake.
At the same time, you feel little or no sympathy towards those who were blameless.

Thanks for your insight...

m.r.m.

Pross wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

hypster wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

I'd wager that overtraining is more a problem for most than training too little. They all look in shape compared to the likes of Ullrich or even a comparably less talented/accomplished Betancur of yonder.

There are multiple examples of riders suffering an injury lightening their racing/training schedule and coming back to win (like Mathew Hayman in Paris Roubaix for example).

Bardet, Quintana, Martin, Yates (A), Nibali etc, etc, have obviously put way too much into it and not tapered enough (again!) - LOL!

Bardet - is in physical shape, probably needs a coaching change since his isn't working for him
Quintana - I don't know why he is this bad
Martin - isn't a genuine GC contender. Same as Bauke Mollema or (still young) Bob Jungels or (currently) Rohan Dennis
Adam Yates - is a one day rider or 1 week stage racer. Has shown nothing to honestly be considered a proper GC contender
Nibali - rode the Giro trying to win and is as such overtrained for the Tour (in the context of what we are talking about)

My point was, it's rather easy to sit back from our armchairs and accuse professional riders of not caring and not working hard enough. I simply doubt that is often the case. I'm sure it sometimes is, but I'd expect them to more often be putting the time and effort in, but to either not be training correctly or to be doing too much (incorrectly).

Do we not count a 4th place finish in the Tour as a reasonable reason to consider him a GC contender?

Fair play, Pross. I personally consider that one a fluke, but that isn't a hill I could or want to die on defending. (I stand corrected).

m.r.m.

hypster wrote:

I'm not saying they are not putting the time in, that would be ridiculous. The point is they are not focussing their efforts on even competing in the TdF so little point in being here in my opinion. I don't know why Movistar persevere with Quintana for instance and obviously they're not for not much longer.

It's not hard to see why Sky have dominated for so long. They have comitted riders who are trained and honed to perfection to perform one particular task at one particular time.

Movistar is basically there to win the team classification. They are weird with their obsession with that pointless competition.