TDF 2019, Stage 15: Limoux > Foix Prat d'Albis 21/07/2019 - 185 km *Spoilers*

darkhairedlord

Blazing Saddles wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

French forecast I look at regularly says tomorrow in Nimes it will be 40C, but feel like 45C
Race day Tuesday 38C but feeling 41C
Cooler (relatively) on Wednesday at the finish in Gap at 32C, but starting out at 38C in Pont du Gard.
Embrun, Thursday 32C
St Jean, Friday 28C
Albertville, Saturday 27C

Not too hot for the mountains then. If Pinot puts time into the others I hope it doesn’t end up being the crosswinds that cost him the tour.

Some folks just don't seem to get crosswinds. As legit as a time trial or a 20km climb.

Race craft. A sad day when race craft doesn't count.

thegibdog

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Some folks just don't seem to get crosswinds. As legit as a time trial or a 20km climb.

Probably more akin to a team time trial.

bm5

andyp wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

This is going to be fun, tomorrow, when it's jam packed with crazy fans.



No train taking that strain.

When they rode it in 2017, didn't they restrict access to spectators? I recall it being quite eerie, as they raced up a virtually deserted road.

I enjoyed the fan free section. Much less stressful. No assistance for those at the back though.

Alejandrosdog

thegibdog wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Some folks just don't seem to get crosswinds. As legit as a time trial or a 20km climb.

Probably more akin to a team time trial.

It’s nothing like a team time trial. Other than they’re sitting on a bike

thegibdog

Alejandrosdog wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Some folks just don't seem to get crosswinds. As legit as a time trial or a 20km climb.

Probably more akin to a team time trial.

It’s nothing like a team time trial. Other than they’re sitting on a bike

Ok, so it’s clear that I need to be more explicit here. I was talking in the context of losing time. Both are legitimate ways of losing/gaining time, but you’d be pretty gutted if you lost the tour if you had the best legs but lost due to one of those.

I am not saying that Pinot didn’t deserve to lose time, just that I’d feel for him if he rode an attacking race, made more time in the Alps and lost because of the crosswinds. The way he’s attacked has been impressive, especially since he looked so downbeat after stage 10. It’s clear that he’s in top form and it feels like this could be the best chance for him to win the tour.

Would nobody else empathise with him?

Pross

thegibdog wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Some folks just don't seem to get crosswinds. As legit as a time trial or a 20km climb.

Probably more akin to a team time trial.

George Bennett begs to differ.

darkhairedlord

thegibdog wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Some folks just don't seem to get crosswinds. As legit as a time trial or a 20km climb.

Probably more akin to a team time trial.

It’s nothing like a team time trial. Other than they’re sitting on a bike

Ok, so it’s clear that I need to be more explicit here. I was talking in the context of losing time. Both are legitimate ways of losing/gaining time, but you’d be pretty gutted if you lost the tour if you had the best legs but lost due to one of those.

I am not saying that Pinot didn’t deserve to lose time, just that I’d feel for him if he rode an attacking race, made more time in the Alps and lost because of the crosswinds. The way he’s attacked has been impressive, especially since he looked so downbeat after stage 10. It’s clear that he’s in top form and it feels like this could be the best chance for him to win the tour.

Would nobody else empathise with him?

he'll choose fast but fragile tyres for the rest of the week, get a few puncture and lose time.

ShutupJens

thegibdog wrote:

Would nobody else empathise with him?

No because it's not just luck. Why is it that Ineos saw it coming, DQS were all there, even Quintana made the selection yet we should feel sorry for Pinot? I respect his game and he has been magnificent since then but it's not the first time he's had a kicking in the crosswinds.. After the time in 2013 that Froome lost time to Contador on the stage that gave birth to the Klaxon, he has been prepared to take the race on in crosswinds since - that's the attitude that Pinot needs to adopt, not "ahh well I could lose that time in a TTT so whats it matter"

blazing_saddles

Alejandrosdog wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Some folks just don't seem to get crosswinds. As legit as a time trial or a 20km climb.

Probably more akin to a team time trial.

It’s nothing like a team time trial. Other than they’re sitting on a bike

Yup.
The proof being that Groupama FDJ rode a great TTT.
That and the fact that "No Team" Quintana managed not to lose time.

Great action is great action and that stage was as exciting in terms of attacking as yesterday's final climbs.

thegibdog

ShutupJens wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

Would nobody else empathise with him?

No because it's not just luck. Why is it that Ineos saw it coming, DQS were all there, even Quintana made the selection yet we should feel sorry for Pinot? I respect his game and he has been magnificent since then but it's not the first time he's had a kicking in the crosswinds.. After the time in 2013 that Froome lost time to Contador on the stage that gave birth to the Klaxon, he has been prepared to take the race on in crosswinds since - that's the attitude that Pinot needs to adopt, not "ahh well I could lose that time in a TTT so whats it matter"

I didn’t say it was luck. They messed up and admitted that. What I’m saying is that if I was in that situation and it ended up costing me the tour I’d be pretty gutted. It’d be hard not to look back on it and think ‘what if?’.

craigus89

ShutupJens wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

Would nobody else empathise with him?

No because it's not just luck. Why is it that Ineos saw it coming, DQS were all there, even Quintana made the selection yet we should feel sorry for Pinot? I respect his game and he has been magnificent since then but it's not the first time he's had a kicking in the crosswinds.. After the time in 2013 that Froome lost time to Contador on the stage that gave birth to the Klaxon, he has been prepared to take the race on in crosswinds since - that's the attitude that Pinot needs to adopt, not "ahh well I could lose that time in a TTT so whats it matter"

He may have been completely prepared, his team clearly weren't, so I do sympathise with him.

larkim

It wasn't so much the roundabout as the hesitation amongst the group to go full gas and catch back on. Hell, even Pinot on his own could probably have bridged had he buried himself and realised that this was the moment he could lose the Tour.

I know that sounds easier said than done, but there's a reason why the GC teams sit at the front, and the crosswinds day showed exactly that. Plus decisive action if something untoward ever does happen.

It's the conundrum of the individual race within a team sport. Funnily enough, Quintana it seems to me shows the way in terms of someone whose self preservation instincts work brilliantly (even if his legs don't always).

At the end of the day, the crosswinds gap was a racing matter; preferable to a piece of bad luck such as being taken out in a crash or a mechanical through no fault of the rider.

Pross

thegibdog wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Some folks just don't seem to get crosswinds. As legit as a time trial or a 20km climb.

Probably more akin to a team time trial.

It’s nothing like a team time trial. Other than they’re sitting on a bike

Ok, so it’s clear that I need to be more explicit here. I was talking in the context of losing time. Both are legitimate ways of losing/gaining time, but you’d be pretty gutted if you lost the tour if you had the best legs but lost due to one of those.

I am not saying that Pinot didn’t deserve to lose time, just that I’d feel for him if he rode an attacking race, made more time in the Alps and lost because of the crosswinds. The way he’s attacked has been impressive, especially since he looked so downbeat after stage 10. It’s clear that he’s in top form and it feels like this could be the best chance for him to win the tour.

Would nobody else empathise with him?

But if Thomas loses by a handful of seconds would you not empathise with him? Pinot and Alaphillipe gained time on him on that stage where he got taken out in a crash. He chased brilliantly with his team to get back on but they attacked before he could get back in a position to do anything about it. I think that would be tougher than losing out due to the most telegraphed forcing of echelons in Tour history.

DeadCalm

Pinot (and I) will be gutted if the crosswinds ultimately cost him the race but as others have said they are a part of the racing. It was an undeniably exciting stage even though my man suffered.

For what it's worth, if I were FDJ, I would be trying to poach Naesen from AG2R or bring in someone with a similar skillset.

RichN95.

Pinot's in his tenth season as a pro. He's not a neo-pro. If he's still getting caught out by crosswinds it's his own fault.

DeVlaeminck

Landa is the one who was really unlucky - elbowed off the road after he'd made the selection ended up losing more time than Pinot. Without that he'd still be in the mix - though you suspect yesterday may have played out differently had he been further up the GC he's still showing he can climb well enough to be a threat.

I'd still be gutted to lose the Tour on a crosswinds stage if I were Pinot though - as someone said above it can still be his fault but feel you've lost it due to a silly mistake - if you don't have the legs then you can tell yourself there was nothing you could do but Pinot may end up knowing this was one he could have won but didn't - that must be harder to take.

ddraver

I only caught the highlights so I accept that these may have been compressed but Boulting and Millar's commentary was a stream of, "gonna be crosswinds crosswinds coming DKS try but don't make it stick crosswinds crosswinds crosswinds" etc

Then Pinot gets 'caught out'

I mean... eventually, 'caught out' doesn't really apply when it's been blooming obvious what's coming!

Pross

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Landa is the one who was really unlucky - elbowed off the road after he'd made the selection ended up losing more time than Pinot. Without that he'd still be in the mix - though you suspect yesterday may have played out differently had he been further up the GC he's still showing he can climb well enough to be a threat.

I'd still be gutted to lose the Tour on a crosswinds stage if I were Pinot though - as someone said above it can still be his fault but feel you've lost it due to a silly mistake - if you don't have the legs then you can tell yourself there was nothing you could do but Pinot may end up knowing this was one he could have won but didn't - that must be harder to take.

Good point on Landa (although elbowed off the road is stretching it, he got clipped by a rider who had been clipped himself).

bm5

I would feel sorry for him. But then I feel sorry for Bardet, Adam and most of the others. All that preparation and pressure.
And Pinot has to put up with Madiot

RichN95.

There's no point getting excited about echelon stages and then bemoaning their influence on the GC a week later.

thegibdog

I don’t think anyone is bemoaning it - it’s (an exciting) part of bike racing. It would just be a galling way to lose the tour. If I were Pinot I’d be happier losing the race by over 1:40 rather than knowing that messing up on that one stage was what cost the title.

m.r.m.

There is always some reason for losing time. Most are of equal value. Crosswinds aren't worse than getting caught in a crash of no personal fault or getting a flu bug from a teammate or food poisoning or a mechanical at a bad time (more in the line of another rider hitting your derailleur than a puncture) etc. etc.

Usually that type of circumstance doesn't stick around forever except if you are Sep or Porte.

blazing_saddles

thegibdog wrote:

I don’t think anyone is bemoaning it - it’s (an exciting) part of bike racing. It would just be a galling way to lose the tour. If I were Pinot I’d be happier losing the race by over 1:40 rather than knowing that messing up on that one stage was what cost the title.

How about Thomas getting taken out by Woods on stage 8 and losing 26 seconds to Pinot?
Or Fuglsang getting face planted by a Bahrain 1-2?
Landa lost 2'-09" in those same crosswinds, after being in that lead group, only to end up being put in a ditch.

All racing incidents that go down in the 3 week accumulative gains and losses columns of those riders, that may ultimately cost any one of them the race, too.

Equally galling, no?

That's why they call them Grand Tours.

hypster

This is one of the closest fought Grand Tours for years with several riders in with a realistic shout. I guess there's going to be quite a few "If onlys" at the end of it.

I think several riders have probably started already with "If only I'd trained a bit harder"...

m.r.m.

I'd wager that overtraining is more a problem for most than training too little. They all look in shape compared to the likes of Ullrich or even a comparably less talented/accomplished Betancur of yonder.

There are multiple examples of riders suffering an injury lightening their racing/training schedule and coming back to win (like Mathew Hayman in Paris Roubaix for example).

larkim

Blazing Saddles wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

I don’t think anyone is bemoaning it - it’s (an exciting) part of bike racing. It would just be a galling way to lose the tour. If I were Pinot I’d be happier losing the race by over 1:40 rather than knowing that messing up on that one stage was what cost the title.

How about Thomas getting taken out by Woods on stage 8 and losing 26 seconds to Pinot?
Or Fuglsang getting face planted by a Bahrain 1-2?
Landa lost 2'-09" in those same crosswinds, after being in that lead group, only to end up being put in a ditch.

All racing incidents that go down in the 3 week accumulative gains and losses columns of those riders, that may ultimately cost any one of them the race, too.

Equally galling, no?

That's why they call them Grand Tours.

I put this up on the poll thread - but it does a bit of a disservice to Thomas' legs ref stage 8 where the Woods crash was at least partly responsible for the 28s lost to Pinot that day, as you point out.

This is where the gaps have come, and who they have benefited

Stage	TT	Legs	Bonus	Crosswinds
 2		12GT
 3				5TB
 6				2GT
 8				20TP	8TP
10									1m40GT
13		35GT
14				36TP	10TP
15				49TP	6TP
Total	47GT 1m48TP 24TP	  1m40GT

davidof

Above The Cows wrote:

Pross wrote:

Be interesting to see if anyone puts the pressure on Pinot on the descent into Valloire

the descent to Valloire is not so tricky, is it? I like it.

One or two bends above Plan Lachat are a bit olé olé but the road surface is ok, it has been resurfaced in places with nice smooth tarmac.

davidof

hypster wrote:

I think several riders have probably started already with "If only I'd trained a bit harder"...

funny you mention that, I was riding along a few weeks back and an AG2R rider came by slowed down and waited "where you going?" he asked.

"work about 12km down the road" I told him

"I'll ride along, I fancy a yik-yak, my coach has this great long training ride planned, 170km over the mountains but I'm going to sag off"

"I'm not very fast" I warned him

"Don't worry, I'll make up the time later"

hypster

M.R.M. wrote:

I'd wager that overtraining is more a problem for most than training too little. They all look in shape compared to the likes of Ullrich or even a comparably less talented/accomplished Betancur of yonder.

There are multiple examples of riders suffering an injury lightening their racing/training schedule and coming back to win (like Mathew Hayman in Paris Roubaix for example).

Bardet, Quintana, Martin, Yates (A), Nibali etc, etc, have obviously put way too much into it and not tapered enough (again!) - LOL!

mididoctors

larkim wrote:

It wasn't so much the roundabout as the hesitation amongst the group to go full gas and catch back on. Hell, even Pinot on his own could probably have bridged had he buried himself and realised that this was the moment he could lose the Tour.

I know that sounds easier said than done, but there's a reason why the GC teams sit at the front, and the crosswinds day showed exactly that. Plus decisive action if something untoward ever does happen.

It's the conundrum of the individual race within a team sport. Funnily enough, Quintana it seems to me shows the way in terms of someone whose self preservation instincts work brilliantly (even if his legs don't always).

At the end of the day, the crosswinds gap was a racing matter; preferable to a piece of bad luck such as being taken out in a crash or a mechanical through no fault of the rider.

Other way round. They needed to calm down and get organised. Panic set in and they blew the group they were in to bits.