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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,882
    You realise that tutors also coach their students for exams?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • verylonglegs
    verylonglegs Posts: 4,023
    Bitterness isn't good for you John.
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,668
    edited December 2020
    john80 said:

    Jezyboy said:

    The only guy I knew who got extra out of school tuition was the son of a single mother nurse. Tutoring is hardly the preserve of the fabulously weathly middle class.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-10-23/u-k-national-tutoring-service-tutoring-shouldn-t-be-a-middle-class-privilege

    This journalist concluded differently to your random survey of a few people.
    Honestly, that's not what I take from that article, and is not particularly what I was pointing out.

    The article gives scant information on the backgrounds of the children getting extra tuition. Half of children in London and a third in Wales. If you want to write those parents off as posho idiots that's fine.

    I would say that amount of tuition suggests that schools really aren't getting the best out of kids.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    verylonglegs said:

    Bitterness isn't good for you John.

    I grew up in a time that did not have private tutoring as a norm. That time has passed so I am not bitter regardless of your conclusion. I can just see that a basic exam is easier for a talented student with some teacher encouragement than a shed load of coursework where a good number of his peers are getting coached or worse their assignments are being written for them. You also need to think that in a lot of cases these peers are at a different school so whilst tutoring might be rare or non existent in their school it is the norm in another and yet this kid has to compete nationally to get anywhere. It is a disaster from a social mobility point of view.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    rjsterry said:

    You realise that tutors also coach their students for exams?

    Yes they do but it is harder to dress up as the kid and then do the exam as most teachers notice. I am not sure this is the same for assignment work.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,078
    rjsterry said:

    You realise that tutors also coach their students for exams?

    I do, but the object of an exam is to test someone's skill and knowledge, so in an ideal world coaching for an exam involves improving those elements. Of course, that's not completely true, and various exam techniques can be taught, and some exams aren't that great at testing those core skills.

    Nonetheless, a piece of coursework at school level can be substantially improved or even rewritten without the skill/knowledge of the pupil improving. Even at degree level there are essay writing services available.

    Therefore, on balance, I think exams do have a place. Adding a viva to some coursework would help to check the actual level of understanding.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited December 2020
    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    You realise that tutors also coach their students for exams?

    I do, but the object of an exam is to test someone's skill and knowledge, so in an ideal world coaching for an exam involves improving those elements. Of course, that's not completely true, and various exam techniques can be taught, and some exams aren't that great at testing those core skills.

    Nonetheless, a piece of coursework at school level can be substantially improved or even rewritten without the skill/knowledge of the pupil improving. Even at degree level there are essay writing services available.

    Therefore, on balance, I think exams do have a place. Adding a viva to some coursework would help to check the actual level of understanding.
    Exams are quite gameable.

    To make them able to be marked evenly across the country they have to be quite prescriptive by nature, and schools that are orientated towards exam result specifically can get very good at gaming them.

    For example, in my AS levels for history, they didn't stipulate you had to write in full prose only full sentences. So in order to save time, we were taught to answer in bullet points and not worry about knitting the prose together into an essay.

    The exam also for one paper could only ask on one of 3 topics, and only ask one of three things on each topic, so we were specifically taught how to answer each of the nine topics, which bits to hit, and were sent home with lists of 'evidence examples' for each iteration to learn by rote.

    Some students didn't buy into it but those who did did really well - I think I got full marks in that paper.

    This is all fine but I don't think it is really the point of an education, to me anyway. But it got me the grades so great.
    _
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,668
    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    You realise that tutors also coach their students for exams?

    I do, but the object of an exam is to test someone's skill and knowledge, so in an ideal world coaching for an exam involves improving those elements. Of course, that's not completely true, and various exam techniques can be taught, and some exams aren't that great at testing those core skills.

    Nonetheless, a piece of coursework at school level can be substantially improved or even rewritten without the skill/knowledge of the pupil improving. Even at degree level there are essay writing services available.

    Therefore, on balance, I think exams do have a place. Adding a viva to some coursework would help to check the actual level of understanding.
    Exams are quite gameable.

    To make them able to be marked evenly across the country they have to be quite prescriptive by nature, and schools that are orientated towards exam result specifically can get very good at gaming them.

    For example, in my AS levels for history, they didn't stipulate you had to write in full prose only full sentences. So in order to save time, we were taught to answer in bullet points and not worry about knitting the prose together into an essay.

    The exam also for one paper could only ask on one of 3 topics, and only ask one of three things on each topic, so we were specifically taught how to answer each of the nine topics, which bits to hit, and were sent home with lists of 'evidence examples' for each iteration to learn by rote.

    Some students didn't buy into it but those who did did really well - I think I got full marks in that paper.

    This is all fine but I don't think it is really the point of an education, to me anyway. But it got me the grades so great.
    Wish I'd known that when studying for my AS levels!
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Well yeah exactly.

    My wife who is the same age and who turned out did the same exam as me learned a more traditional way and the teachers would finish the curriculum early and whereas I would then have exam technique lessons, her teachers taught her about things they thought a well rounded person should should know about their subject.

    She learned interesting stuff - I learned to go through the rules of everything and spot where I could game it.
    _
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,882
    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    You realise that tutors also coach their students for exams?

    I do, but the object of an exam is to test someone's skill and knowledge, so in an ideal world coaching for an exam involves improving those elements. Of course, that's not completely true, and various exam techniques can be taught, and some exams aren't that great at testing those core skills.

    Nonetheless, a piece of coursework at school level can be substantially improved or even rewritten without the skill/knowledge of the pupil improving. Even at degree level there are essay writing services available.

    Therefore, on balance, I think exams do have a place. Adding a viva to some coursework would help to check the actual level of understanding.
    Of course they do, but they aren't immune from 'teaching to the exam'. And I agree coursework has more potential for cheating, but would hope that a decent teacher could spot an essay mill substitute.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,078
    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    You realise that tutors also coach their students for exams?

    I do, but the object of an exam is to test someone's skill and knowledge, so in an ideal world coaching for an exam involves improving those elements. Of course, that's not completely true, and various exam techniques can be taught, and some exams aren't that great at testing those core skills.

    Nonetheless, a piece of coursework at school level can be substantially improved or even rewritten without the skill/knowledge of the pupil improving. Even at degree level there are essay writing services available.

    Therefore, on balance, I think exams do have a place. Adding a viva to some coursework would help to check the actual level of understanding.
    Exams are quite gameable.

    To make them able to be marked evenly across the country they have to be quite prescriptive by nature, and schools that are orientated towards exam result specifically can get very good at gaming them.

    For example, in my AS levels for history, they didn't stipulate you had to write in full prose only full sentences. So in order to save time, we were taught to answer in bullet points and not worry about knitting the prose together into an essay.

    The exam also for one paper could only ask on one of 3 topics, and only ask one of three things on each topic, so we were specifically taught how to answer each of the nine topics, which bits to hit, and were sent home with lists of 'evidence examples' for each iteration to learn by rote.

    Some students didn't buy into it but those who did did really well - I think I got full marks in that paper.

    This is all fine but I don't think it is really the point of an education, to me anyway. But it got me the grades so great.
    That's an argument for better exams though.

    I wasn't taught about the cold war, because it wouldn't be on that year's exam, because they alternated. I wanted to learn about the cold war.

    I can see an argument that subjects that need lots of references like history might be better as coursework though.



  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,078
    rjsterry said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rjsterry said:

    You realise that tutors also coach their students for exams?

    I do, but the object of an exam is to test someone's skill and knowledge, so in an ideal world coaching for an exam involves improving those elements. Of course, that's not completely true, and various exam techniques can be taught, and some exams aren't that great at testing those core skills.

    Nonetheless, a piece of coursework at school level can be substantially improved or even rewritten without the skill/knowledge of the pupil improving. Even at degree level there are essay writing services available.

    Therefore, on balance, I think exams do have a place. Adding a viva to some coursework would help to check the actual level of understanding.
    Of course they do, but they aren't immune from 'teaching to the exam'. And I agree coursework has more potential for cheating, but would hope that a decent teacher could spot an essay mill substitute.
    The teachers are often happy with the cheating. For my my practical exam at A-Level, the teacher essentially spelt out the answers on the board. It was pretty disappointing as I knew the answers and didn't need them to cheat on my behalf.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,882
    There's a whole other argument about the unintended consequences of how teachers' performance is measured.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    So I was brought up by someone who sets exams and the challenge is the easier they re to have consistency between markers the easier they are to game.

    There's a balance to be had but if you judge schools on their exam results then they need to be pretty easily compared between schools and not susceptible to discrepancies in marking.
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,078
    rick_chasey said:

    So I was brought up by someone who sets exams and the challenge is the easier they re to have consistency between markers the easier they are to game.

    There's a balance to be had but if you judge schools on their exam results then they need to be pretty easily compared between schools and not susceptible to discrepancies in marking.

    I would have thought that is only true for essay writing subjects where you need to compare essays, and doing it on the same subject is much easier.

  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,280
    Well my life currently is tidying up issues caused by the end of lockdown going back by one day for no apparent reason, and preparing for Brexit. What a waste of time.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    One rule for them etc

    _
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,280
    rick_chasey said:

    One rule for them etc

    That was in the winter plan I think. Totally, unbelievably, maddeningly insane.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,280
    edited December 2020
    Weird how the virus knows not to infect business people in all settings.

    Edit: sorry "high value" business people.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    It is like they don't know how the economy works. High up business people should be able to use zoom. There is literally no GDP gain by allowing high value business people to avoid quarantine periods.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,582
    High value business travellers need to go on holiday.
    Rest of us can stay at home. One rule...
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited December 2020
    Mainly aimed at Swiss based Brit hedgie managers who are mates with / went to school with / donating to the Tory party.
    _
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,678
    They may as well have said "a few of our mates didn't like the travel rules so we changed them". Question is whether the electorate as a whole are aware of this sort of thing and, if so, do they just see it as corruption that has always been there and that they're all at it or realise that it is becoming so unapologetic and blatant that it needs stamping out?
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,678
    Seems that alleged corruption is still frowned upon if you're a Labour mayor though ;)
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,882
    Nail on the head. The Conservatives are becoming a protest party.

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2020/12/david-gauke-how-the-conservatives-are-morphing-from-a-party-of-power-to-a-party-of-protest.html

    Ironic that defeating Corbyn's version of the Labour Party has led to them taking on so many of his habits.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,668
    rjsterry said:

    Nail on the head. The Conservatives are becoming a protest party.

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2020/12/david-gauke-how-the-conservatives-are-morphing-from-a-party-of-power-to-a-party-of-protest.html

    Ironic that defeating Corbyn's version of the Labour Party has led to them taking on so many of his habits.

    Well you know... Corbyn did win the argument!

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,582
    rjsterry said:

    Nail on the head. The Conservatives are becoming a protest party.

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2020/12/david-gauke-how-the-conservatives-are-morphing-from-a-party-of-power-to-a-party-of-protest.html

    Ironic that defeating Corbyn's version of the Labour Party has led to them taking on so many of his habits.

    Vote for BJ, get Corbyn's money tree.
    Whoda thunk it?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,496
    a bit of seasonal cheer...

    https://borisjohnson.info/
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • shortfall
    shortfall Posts: 3,288
    sungod said:

    a bit of seasonal cheer...

    https://borisjohnson.info/

    😁😁
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,078
    Might interest some people. Boris isn't doing that badly apparently.

    https://unherd.com/2020/12/why-boris-is-still-beating-labour/

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