LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

rick_chasey

😜

rick_chasey

Getting really sick to the teeth of the whole discourse that you need to be northern and working class to have a 'real' or 'in touch' view.

Is the rest of the nation living in some f*cking matrix world? Grow up

rjsterry

I see from the reports of the next Queen's Speech that the government are ducking social care again. Gotta bring in a law to stamp out the non existent problem of voter fraud, though.

shirley_basso

"Love him or loathe him, Johnson (and Cummings) pulled a political blinder.

UK voters have always supported both higher taxes/spending (favouring Labour) and opposed social change (favouring the Conservatives).

Johnson's dragged the Conservatives kicking and screaming into being an even more socially conservative party who also promises higher public spending.

Labour has nowhere to go now."

kingstongraham

Higher spending but not higher taxes being promised, obviously. Labour can't get away with that.

Nobody ever asks how Trident is going to be paid for.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

Getting really sick to the teeth of the whole discourse that you need to be northern and working class to have a 'real' or 'in touch' view.

Is the rest of the nation living in some f*cking matrix world? Grow up

I say this only half in jest - could this be the first time that you are on the wrong side of a "woke cause" and now you are the dinosaur railing against and refusing to accept the new reality?

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

Getting really sick to the teeth of the whole discourse that you need to be northern and working class to have a 'real' or 'in touch' view.

Is the rest of the nation living in some f*cking matrix world? Grow up

I say this only half in jest - could this be the first time that you are on the wrong side of a "woke cause" and now you are the dinosaur railing against and refusing to accept the new reality?

Who knows. There if a fetishisation of people from certain classes and geographies every election and the analysis always revolves around "middle class liberals are so out of touch" as if somehow a) it is up to middle class liberal types to be in touch with people from elsewhere and b) that some working class white man with a regional accent is in touch with what it is to be a middle class liberal.

Really annoys me.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

Really annoys me.

A step closer on the path to grumpy old man. 😉

rick_chasey

Probably.

I am generally disappointed for places like Doncaster etc who look like they are swinging Tory.

I married someone from south yorkshire and spend a fair bit of time there. I studied there, I know plenty of people there.

Quite a few places there, certainly not all, have gone backwards in the 15 or so years I've been going there.

I am genuinely gobsmacked when I see them locals Labour for it. Like, who was in charge of austerity for the past 10 years?

The Tories don't really care about these places - that's why they disproportionately targeted austerity on labour areas, over and over.

it's mad. Madness. Turkeys voting for Christmas. And then you get someone like Short or Dorset who comes in and blames people who live in well off cities for not understanding what it means to live in Rotherham or whatever deprived area is topic du jour, despite *voting for the party who will likely improve towns like these*.

Sheffield was booming in the '00s. Absolutely booming. A lot of people did very well back in the day. Austerity wiped a lot of that a way.

morstar

Surely it boils down to the single point of managing to blame the Eu rather than austerity that sees us where we are.
A remarkable feat by all involved. Weak opposition and barefaced dishonesty by the anti Eu lot.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

Probably.

I am generally disappointed for places like Doncaster etc who look like they are swinging Tory.

I married someone from south yorkshire and spend a fair bit of time there. I studied there, I know plenty of people there.

Quite a few places there, certainly not all, have gone backwards in the 15 or so years I've been going there.

I am genuinely gobsmacked when I see them locals Labour for it. Like, who was in charge of austerity for the past 10 years?

The Tories don't really care about these places - that's why they disproportionately targeted austerity on labour areas, over and over.

it's mad. Madness. Turkeys voting for Christmas. And then you get someone like Short or Dorset who comes in and blames people who live in well off cities for not understanding what it means to live in Rotherham or whatever deprived area is topic du jour, despite *voting for the party who will likely improve towns like these*.

Sheffield was booming in the '00s. Absolutely booming. A lot of people did very well back in the day. Austerity wiped a lot of that a way.

Surely the point is that they've tried voting Labour for most of the last 15 years and it hasn't helped, partly because with the exception of a couple of metro mayors the party has been more interested in repeatedly punching itself in the face.

Stevo_666

pblakeney said:

grumpy old man. 😉

2/3 and the third is only a matter of time . Given what was posted above re: the voting propensity by age, it looks like its only a matter of time before he ends up voting tory...

rick_chasey

MMmm I dunno.

I'm more inclined to believe the Cummings view that a lot of people who feel hard done by are really pre-occupied by immigration.

What was the quote - he couldn't get a focus group of either tory or labour voters to stay off the topic for more than 20 minutes?

And ultimately the "bigoted woman" moment for Brown cemented in people's minds that labour makes them feel bad for being anti-immigration and the Tories don't.

For people like the cliches we've seen wheeled out in Hartlepool (a much smaller pool of people than you'd think) I think it basically boils down to that.

I think the 13 or so million retired people are similarly inclined but it's part of a wider "the world is changing in ways I don't like - including lots of towns I used to know changing because of immigrants" plus a decent slug of voting tory to protect their paper millionaire status (1 in 5 of over 65s..)


I think the EU stuff is just proxy for immigration.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

MMmm I dunno.

I'm more inclined to believe the Cummings view that a lot of people who feel hard done by are really pre-occupied by immigration.

What was the quote - he couldn't get a focus group of either tory or labour voters to stay off the topic for more than 20 minutes?

And ultimately the "bigoted woman" moment for Brown cemented in people's minds that labour makes them feel bad for being anti-immigration and the Tories don't.

For people like the cliches we've seen wheeled out in Hartlepool (a much smaller pool of people than you'd think) I think it basically boils down to that.

I think the 13 or so million retired people are similarly inclined but it's part of a wider "the world is changing in ways I don't like - including lots of towns I used to know changing because of immigrants" plus a decent slug of voting tory to protect their paper millionaire status (1 in 5 of over 65s..)


I think the EU stuff is just proxy for immigration.

Theres more to it than that. As you get older and your income and assets increase, your view may well change. As one day you will probably decide you've had enough of young, naive and idealistic types who think they know everything and are determined to put the world to rights (aka tilt the tables in their favour). Sound familiar in any way?

TheBigBean

Just a guess, but I'm not sure that the messaging "Idiot. You voted for Brexit" is particularly successful.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

MMmm I dunno.

I'm more inclined to believe the Cummings view that a lot of people who feel hard done by are really pre-occupied by immigration.

What was the quote - he couldn't get a focus group of either tory or labour voters to stay off the topic for more than 20 minutes?

And ultimately the "bigoted woman" moment for Brown cemented in people's minds that labour makes them feel bad for being anti-immigration and the Tories don't.

For people like the cliches we've seen wheeled out in Hartlepool (a much smaller pool of people than you'd think) I think it basically boils down to that.

I think the 13 or so million retired people are similarly inclined but it's part of a wider "the world is changing in ways I don't like - including lots of towns I used to know changing because of immigrants" plus a decent slug of voting tory to protect their paper millionaire status (1 in 5 of over 65s..)


I think the EU stuff is just proxy for immigration.

Theres more to it than that. As you get older and your income and assets increase, your view may well change. As one day you will probably decide you've had enough of young, naive and idealistic types who think they know everything and are determined to put the world to rights (aka tilt the tables in their favour). Sound familiar in any way?

Bless you for thinking that's still the conservative party credo.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

Just a guess, but I'm not sure that the messaging "Idiot. You voted for Brexit" is particularly successful.

Totally. The second ref campaign reads like that.

The problem is what if you actually think that? And that the premise of putting to referendum was indeed stupid?

If you're out for votes, sure, you can't say that (and they did) but if not, why not say what you think?

kingstongraham

The conservative party is now the brexit party, with all of its non-brexit policies. If they abandon hs2, it's 100% complete.

kingstongraham

Actually that's not true. The Brexit Party also wanted a more representative voting system, abolish the house of lords and to ensure civil servants are politically neutral, so there's a point of difference. Brexit party had some more progressive policies.

Dorset_Boy

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

Just a guess, but I'm not sure that the messaging "Idiot. You voted for Brexit" is particularly successful.

Totally. The second ref campaign reads like that.

The problem is what if you actually think that? And that the premise of putting to referendum was indeed stupid?

If you're out for votes, sure, you can't say that (and they did) but if not, why not say what you think?

We still see lots of calling Brexiteers, or even reluctant remainers who have accepted the result, idiots or worse. It happens on here fairly frequently. Whether anyone thinks that or not, it isn't going to help bring people together, or to move the situation on to try to improve things in a wider sense.

Sometimes you just have to bite your tongue.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

MMmm I dunno.

I'm more inclined to believe the Cummings view that a lot of people who feel hard done by are really pre-occupied by immigration.

What was the quote - he couldn't get a focus group of either tory or labour voters to stay off the topic for more than 20 minutes?

And ultimately the "bigoted woman" moment for Brown cemented in people's minds that labour makes them feel bad for being anti-immigration and the Tories don't.

For people like the cliches we've seen wheeled out in Hartlepool (a much smaller pool of people than you'd think) I think it basically boils down to that.

I think the 13 or so million retired people are similarly inclined but it's part of a wider "the world is changing in ways I don't like - including lots of towns I used to know changing because of immigrants" plus a decent slug of voting tory to protect their paper millionaire status (1 in 5 of over 65s..)


I think the EU stuff is just proxy for immigration.

Theres more to it than that. As you get older and your income and assets increase, your view may well change. As one day you will probably decide you've had enough of young, naive and idealistic types who think they know everything and are determined to put the world to rights (aka tilt the tables in their favour). Sound familiar in any way?

Bless you for thinking that's still the conservative party credo.

Which party do you think would take more of that approach?

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

MMmm I dunno.

I'm more inclined to believe the Cummings view that a lot of people who feel hard done by are really pre-occupied by immigration.

What was the quote - he couldn't get a focus group of either tory or labour voters to stay off the topic for more than 20 minutes?

And ultimately the "bigoted woman" moment for Brown cemented in people's minds that labour makes them feel bad for being anti-immigration and the Tories don't.

For people like the cliches we've seen wheeled out in Hartlepool (a much smaller pool of people than you'd think) I think it basically boils down to that.

I think the 13 or so million retired people are similarly inclined but it's part of a wider "the world is changing in ways I don't like - including lots of towns I used to know changing because of immigrants" plus a decent slug of voting tory to protect their paper millionaire status (1 in 5 of over 65s..)


I think the EU stuff is just proxy for immigration.

Theres more to it than that. As you get older and your income and assets increase, your view may well change. As one day you will probably decide you've had enough of young, naive and idealistic types who think they know everything and are determined to put the world to rights (aka tilt the tables in their favour). Sound familiar in any way?

Bless you for thinking that's still the conservative party credo.

Which party do you think would take more of that approach?

If your ambition is simply to vote for a party that is anywhere to the right of Labour, your push for Labour to move a long way left may be having unintended consequences.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

Just a guess, but I'm not sure that the messaging "Idiot. You voted for Brexit" is particularly successful.

Totally. The second ref campaign reads like that.

The problem is what if you actually think that? And that the premise of putting to referendum was indeed stupid?

If you're out for votes, sure, you can't say that (and they did) but if not, why not say what you think?

If you are not out for votes, what on earth are you doing in politics - even at the local campaign leafleting level?

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

Just a guess, but I'm not sure that the messaging "Idiot. You voted for Brexit" is particularly successful.

Totally. The second ref campaign reads like that.

The problem is what if you actually think that? And that the premise of putting to referendum was indeed stupid?

If you're out for votes, sure, you can't say that (and they did) but if not, why not say what you think?

You can say that if it is what you believe, but the Labour party can't if it wants to be elected. Prior to the previous election, I posted to say that Labour had to seek positive changes to the withdrawal agreement and then vote for it.

Caroline Flint (MP at the time) knew this. She spoke out about it. She managed to get some changes to the withdrawal agreement bill which she could have sold to the electorate, but instead labour voted against it. Then labour picked the shadow Brexit secretary as leader.

tailwindhome

Ultimately, elections are nothing more than a popularity contest.

surrey_commuter

kingstongraham said:

Actually that's not true. The Brexit Party also wanted a more representative voting system, abolish the house of lords and to ensure civil servants are politically neutral, so there's a point of difference. Brexit party had some more progressive policies.

I read an article that pondered "What if Napoleon had invaded Britain in 1803" apparently top of his to do list were abolish monarchy, abolish nobility and the HoL

Maybe I need to campaign for a French invasion?

rick_chasey

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

Just a guess, but I'm not sure that the messaging "Idiot. You voted for Brexit" is particularly successful.

Totally. The second ref campaign reads like that.

The problem is what if you actually think that? And that the premise of putting to referendum was indeed stupid?

If you're out for votes, sure, you can't say that (and they did) but if not, why not say what you think?

If you are not out for votes, what on earth are you doing in politics - even at the local campaign leafleting level?

I didn’t mean me personally - I wasn’t out calling people stupid (only on here under a pseudonym ahem) - I mean more commentators.

Jezyboy

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

Just a guess, but I'm not sure that the messaging "Idiot. You voted for Brexit" is particularly successful.

Totally. The second ref campaign reads like that.

The problem is what if you actually think that? And that the premise of putting to referendum was indeed stupid?

If you're out for votes, sure, you can't say that (and they did) but if not, why not say what you think?

You can say that if it is what you believe, but the Labour party can't if it wants to be elected. Prior to the previous election, I posted to say that Labour had to seek positive changes to the withdrawal agreement and then vote for it.

Caroline Flint (MP at the time) knew this. She spoke out about it. She managed to get some changes to the withdrawal agreement bill which she could have sold to the electorate, but instead labour voted against it. Then labour picked the shadow Brexit secretary as leader.

If Labour were seen to actively support anything other than the softest of Brexits, they would wave goodbye to their young city dweller support, any chances of doing well in Scotland, and still only have a small chance of winning back the red wall.

TheBigBean

Jezyboy said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

Just a guess, but I'm not sure that the messaging "Idiot. You voted for Brexit" is particularly successful.

Totally. The second ref campaign reads like that.

The problem is what if you actually think that? And that the premise of putting to referendum was indeed stupid?

If you're out for votes, sure, you can't say that (and they did) but if not, why not say what you think?

You can say that if it is what you believe, but the Labour party can't if it wants to be elected. Prior to the previous election, I posted to say that Labour had to seek positive changes to the withdrawal agreement and then vote for it.

Caroline Flint (MP at the time) knew this. She spoke out about it. She managed to get some changes to the withdrawal agreement bill which she could have sold to the electorate, but instead labour voted against it. Then labour picked the shadow Brexit secretary as leader.

If Labour were seen to actively support anything other than the softest of Brexits, they would wave goodbye to their young city dweller support, any chances of doing well in Scotland, and still only have a small chance of winning back the red wall.

I disagree.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

MMmm I dunno.

I'm more inclined to believe the Cummings view that a lot of people who feel hard done by are really pre-occupied by immigration.

What was the quote - he couldn't get a focus group of either tory or labour voters to stay off the topic for more than 20 minutes?

And ultimately the "bigoted woman" moment for Brown cemented in people's minds that labour makes them feel bad for being anti-immigration and the Tories don't.

For people like the cliches we've seen wheeled out in Hartlepool (a much smaller pool of people than you'd think) I think it basically boils down to that.

I think the 13 or so million retired people are similarly inclined but it's part of a wider "the world is changing in ways I don't like - including lots of towns I used to know changing because of immigrants" plus a decent slug of voting tory to protect their paper millionaire status (1 in 5 of over 65s..)


I think the EU stuff is just proxy for immigration.

Theres more to it than that. As you get older and your income and assets increase, your view may well change. As one day you will probably decide you've had enough of young, naive and idealistic types who think they know everything and are determined to put the world to rights (aka tilt the tables in their favour). Sound familiar in any way?

Bless you for thinking that's still the conservative party credo.

Which party do you think would take more of that approach?

If your ambition is simply to vote for a party that is anywhere to the right of Labour, your push for Labour to move a long way left may be having unintended consequences.

I guessed you wouldn't be able to suggest any.

Labour has already been pushed left, with the intended consequence that it has been out of power for some time and is now gearing up for another spot of civil war as the emboldened hard lefties still think they have a chance.