LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

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  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    tailwindhome said:

    Ultimately, elections are nothing more than a popularity contest.

    Only more recently.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,903
    rick_chasey said:

    rjsterry said:

    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Just a guess, but I'm not sure that the messaging "Idiot. You voted for Brexit" is particularly successful.

    Totally. The second ref campaign reads like that.

    The problem is what if you actually think that? And that the premise of putting to referendum was indeed stupid?

    If you're out for votes, sure, you can't say that (and they did) but if not, why not say what you think?
    If you are not out for votes, what on earth are you doing in politics - even at the local campaign leafleting level?
    I didn’t mean me personally - I wasn’t out calling people stupid (only on here under a pseudonym ahem) - I mean more commentators.


    I think even as a commentator it's good to start from the point that large swathes of the population are not idiots, and if they are doing something you don't understand, it's on you to understand it. Obviously much easier to dash off 800 words that *they* are all out of touch/idiots/bigots/whatever.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,295
    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    MMmm I dunno.

    I'm more inclined to believe the Cummings view that a lot of people who feel hard done by are really pre-occupied by immigration.

    What was the quote - he couldn't get a focus group of either tory or labour voters to stay off the topic for more than 20 minutes?

    And ultimately the "bigoted woman" moment for Brown cemented in people's minds that labour makes them feel bad for being anti-immigration and the Tories don't.

    For people like the cliches we've seen wheeled out in Hartlepool (a much smaller pool of people than you'd think) I think it basically boils down to that.

    I think the 13 or so million retired people are similarly inclined but it's part of a wider "the world is changing in ways I don't like - including lots of towns I used to know changing because of immigrants" plus a decent slug of voting tory to protect their paper millionaire status (1 in 5 of over 65s..)


    I think the EU stuff is just proxy for immigration.

    Theres more to it than that. As you get older and your income and assets increase, your view may well change. As one day you will probably decide you've had enough of young, naive and idealistic types who think they know everything and are determined to put the world to rights (aka tilt the tables in their favour). Sound familiar in any way?
    Bless you for thinking that's still the conservative party credo.
    Which party do you think would take more of that approach?

    If your ambition is simply to vote for a party that is anywhere to the right of Labour, your push for Labour to move a long way left may be having unintended consequences.
    I guessed you wouldn't be able to suggest any.

    Labour has already been pushed left, with the intended consequence that it has been out of power for some time and is now gearing up for another spot of civil war as the emboldened hard lefties still think they have a chance.
    I didn't suggest any because there aren't any. The Conservative party has disappeared from an economic policy perspective. They have moved so far left economically that the only real difference between them and Labour of a few years back is that they don't have to justify how they are going to pay for the same policies.

    I can only assume that long term Conservative supporters believe their promises as little as I do.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a large proportion of the electorate are stupid.

    However, they still have a vote that counts.

    How you deal with that fact is up to you but, holding them in contempt for their stupidity can be problematic.
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,674
    TheBigBean said:

    Jezyboy said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Just a guess, but I'm not sure that the messaging "Idiot. You voted for Brexit" is particularly successful.

    Totally. The second ref campaign reads like that.

    The problem is what if you actually think that? And that the premise of putting to referendum was indeed stupid?

    If you're out for votes, sure, you can't say that (and they did) but if not, why not say what you think?
    You can say that if it is what you believe, but the Labour party can't if it wants to be elected. Prior to the previous election, I posted to say that Labour had to seek positive changes to the withdrawal agreement and then vote for it.

    Caroline Flint (MP at the time) knew this. She spoke out about it. She managed to get some changes to the withdrawal agreement bill which she could have sold to the electorate, but instead labour voted against it. Then labour picked the shadow Brexit secretary as leader.
    If Labour were seen to actively support anything other than the softest of Brexits, they would wave goodbye to their young city dweller support, any chances of doing well in Scotland, and still only have a small chance of winning back the red wall.

    I disagree.
    On which bit of the equation?

    I'm finding a surprising number of metropolitan "elite" people now identify as European, or young-ish people see both parties as economically illiterate, but think that a hard brexit is even more illiterate than some extra free giveaways.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Sure.

    Look if you believe it is really horrendous, which I think many MPs do/did, they may think it's worth the cost of calling for a 2nd ref. That was the gamble and it didn't pay off.

    I've been fairly consistent since the vote that you're better off going for as soft a brexit as possible. BB is probably right that their efforts may have been better spent focusing on that, though I don't think it would have changed that much - if you campaigned for Remain you will always be a remainer.

    But we are being sucked into a populist trap if we think that if the majority love brexit you must do the same.


    I just think you can't credibly campaign for remain and then expect to be able to get the love of brexiters 4 years down the road, regardless.
    _
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,623
    rick_chasey said:

    Sure.

    Look if you believe it is really horrendous, which I think many MPs do/did, they may think it's worth the cost of calling for a 2nd ref. That was the gamble and it didn't pay off.

    I've been fairly consistent since the vote that you're better off going for as soft a brexit as possible. BB is probably right that their efforts may have been better spent focusing on that, though I don't think it would have changed that much - if you campaigned for Remain you will always be a remainer.

    But we are being sucked into a populist trap if we think that if the majority love brexit you must do the same.


    I just think you can't credibly campaign for remain and then expect to be able to get the love of brexiters 4 years down the road, regardless.

    i think you can, but only if you demonstrate acceptance of the result and a willingness to make the best of it.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    A more immediate scandal is the Tory plan to make photo ID compulsory to vote.

    Roughly 3.5m UK adults don't have appropriate photo ID.
    _
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,623
    Well they have 3 years to sort something out.
    Why is it such a scandal with good advance notice?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    rjsterry said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Probably.

    I am generally disappointed for places like Doncaster etc who look like they are swinging Tory.

    I married someone from south yorkshire and spend a fair bit of time there. I studied there, I know plenty of people there.

    Quite a few places there, certainly not all, have gone backwards in the 15 or so years I've been going there.

    I am genuinely gobsmacked when I see them locals Labour for it. Like, who was in charge of austerity for the past 10 years?

    The Tories don't really care about these places - that's why they disproportionately targeted austerity on labour areas, over and over.

    it's mad. Madness. Turkeys voting for Christmas. And then you get someone like Short or Dorset who comes in and blames people who live in well off cities for not understanding what it means to live in Rotherham or whatever deprived area is topic du jour, despite *voting for the party who will likely improve towns like these*.

    Sheffield was booming in the '00s. Absolutely booming. A lot of people did very well back in the day. Austerity wiped a lot of that a way.

    Surely the point is that they've tried voting Labour for most of the last 15 years and it hasn't helped, partly because with the exception of a couple of metro mayors the party has been more interested in repeatedly punching itself in the face.
    So the solution is voting...Tory?
    _
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,295
    Dorset_Boy said:

    Well they have 3 years to sort something out.
    Why is it such a scandal with good advance notice?

    Because the democratic aim should be for as many people as possible to participate in elections. This is purely and simply an attempt to reduce the number of people who vote, and make it more difficult for those who are already lower propensity voters. Consider who is likely to not have a passport or driving licence, and you can identify those populations who are targeted by this.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited May 2021
    Dorset_Boy said:

    Well they have 3 years to sort something out.
    Why is it such a scandal with good advance notice?

    I guess it depends on your priorities, but what is the proportion of voter fraud versus the expected drop off from creating an additional barrier to voting?

    In the US it's quite explicitly used to by Republicans reduce turnout in areas that are likely to vote Democrat.

    Unless there is sufficient evidence that voter fraud is a material issue, why do anything to make voting more difficult? Surely you want to be doing the opposite?
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    morstar said:

    I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a large proportion of the electorate are stupid.

    However, they still have a vote that counts.

    How you deal with that fact is up to you but, holding them in contempt for their stupidity can be problematic.

    Bloke on R5L reckoned 1 in 4 adult Scots is illiterate
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    surrey_commuter said:

    morstar said:

    I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a large proportion of the electorate are stupid.

    However, they still have a vote that counts.

    How you deal with that fact is up to you but, holding them in contempt for their stupidity can be problematic.

    Bloke on R5L reckoned 1 in 4 adult Scots is illiterate
    Was it the ghost of prince philip?
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    TheBigBean said:

    Jezyboy said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Just a guess, but I'm not sure that the messaging "Idiot. You voted for Brexit" is particularly successful.

    Totally. The second ref campaign reads like that.

    The problem is what if you actually think that? And that the premise of putting to referendum was indeed stupid?

    If you're out for votes, sure, you can't say that (and they did) but if not, why not say what you think?
    You can say that if it is what you believe, but the Labour party can't if it wants to be elected. Prior to the previous election, I posted to say that Labour had to seek positive changes to the withdrawal agreement and then vote for it.

    Caroline Flint (MP at the time) knew this. She spoke out about it. She managed to get some changes to the withdrawal agreement bill which she could have sold to the electorate, but instead labour voted against it. Then labour picked the shadow Brexit secretary as leader.
    If Labour were seen to actively support anything other than the softest of Brexits, they would wave goodbye to their young city dweller support, any chances of doing well in Scotland, and still only have a small chance of winning back the red wall.

    I disagree.
    Agree +1

    Whilst Remainers did not realise how much people hate the EU, the other side still do not get that Remainers do not love the EU and so will never be their sole reason for casting vote.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    surrey_commuter said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Jezyboy said:

    TheBigBean said:

    rick_chasey said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Just a guess, but I'm not sure that the messaging "Idiot. You voted for Brexit" is particularly successful.

    Totally. The second ref campaign reads like that.

    The problem is what if you actually think that? And that the premise of putting to referendum was indeed stupid?

    If you're out for votes, sure, you can't say that (and they did) but if not, why not say what you think?
    You can say that if it is what you believe, but the Labour party can't if it wants to be elected. Prior to the previous election, I posted to say that Labour had to seek positive changes to the withdrawal agreement and then vote for it.

    Caroline Flint (MP at the time) knew this. She spoke out about it. She managed to get some changes to the withdrawal agreement bill which she could have sold to the electorate, but instead labour voted against it. Then labour picked the shadow Brexit secretary as leader.
    If Labour were seen to actively support anything other than the softest of Brexits, they would wave goodbye to their young city dweller support, any chances of doing well in Scotland, and still only have a small chance of winning back the red wall.

    I disagree.
    Agree +1

    Whilst Remainers did not realise how much people hate the EU, the other side still do not get that Remainers do not love the EU and so will never be their sole reason for casting vote.
    I think it's hard to get the remain monkier off your back, regardless of positioning. If you've campaign for remain, that's it.
    _
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    morstar said:

    I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a large proportion of the electorate are stupid.

    However, they still have a vote that counts.

    How you deal with that fact is up to you but, holding them in contempt for their stupidity can be problematic.

    I was in the playground this morning dropping the kids off and if I were to pick out the parents that I thought were stupid I would not have found that many. It comes back to that argument that if you keep testing a fish for its ability to climb a tree then it will continually fail. There are many different types of intelligence and unfortunately humans are not good and identifying the intelligence types that are not theirs.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    rick_chasey said:

    Sure.

    Look if you believe it is really horrendous, which I think many MPs do/did, they may think it's worth the cost of calling for a 2nd ref. That was the gamble and it didn't pay off.

    I've been fairly consistent since the vote that you're better off going for as soft a brexit as possible. BB is probably right that their efforts may have been better spent focusing on that, though I don't think it would have changed that much - if you campaigned for Remain you will always be a remainer.

    But we are being sucked into a populist trap if we think that if the majority love brexit you must do the same.


    I just think you can't credibly campaign for remain and then expect to be able to get the love of brexiters 4 years down the road, regardless.

    Do you see any downsides of a really soft brexit? I do and we might as well have stayed in the EU. This is the problem for Labour is that while they were advocating the softest of Brexit the average Joe could see it was worse than not leaving. Once we had left I think there are a fair few that think it is a case of in for a penny in for a pound.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,295
    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Sure.

    Look if you believe it is really horrendous, which I think many MPs do/did, they may think it's worth the cost of calling for a 2nd ref. That was the gamble and it didn't pay off.

    I've been fairly consistent since the vote that you're better off going for as soft a brexit as possible. BB is probably right that their efforts may have been better spent focusing on that, though I don't think it would have changed that much - if you campaigned for Remain you will always be a remainer.

    But we are being sucked into a populist trap if we think that if the majority love brexit you must do the same.


    I just think you can't credibly campaign for remain and then expect to be able to get the love of brexiters 4 years down the road, regardless.

    Do you see any downsides of a really soft brexit? I do and we might as well have stayed in the EU. This is the problem for Labour is that while they were advocating the softest of Brexit the average Joe could see it was worse than not leaving. Once we had left I think there are a fair few that think it is a case of in for a penny in for a pound.
    I'm like this - never thought we could be rule takers from the EU with no say, despite that being the position of most leave campaigners. So I couldn't see a good Brexit.
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,674
    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Sure.

    Look if you believe it is really horrendous, which I think many MPs do/did, they may think it's worth the cost of calling for a 2nd ref. That was the gamble and it didn't pay off.

    I've been fairly consistent since the vote that you're better off going for as soft a brexit as possible. BB is probably right that their efforts may have been better spent focusing on that, though I don't think it would have changed that much - if you campaigned for Remain you will always be a remainer.

    But we are being sucked into a populist trap if we think that if the majority love brexit you must do the same.


    I just think you can't credibly campaign for remain and then expect to be able to get the love of brexiters 4 years down the road, regardless.

    Do you see any downsides of a really soft brexit? I do and we might as well have stayed in the EU. This is the problem for Labour is that while they were advocating the softest of Brexit the average Joe could see it was worse than not leaving. Once we had left I think there are a fair few that think it is a case of in for a penny in for a pound.
    As an engineer I'd have thought you were used to weighing up that every single design/process option has downsides and upsides?

    Taking the position that anyone arguing for a certain position must see no downsides with that is something that we are all guilty of, but it's really a poor approach to debate.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited May 2021
    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Sure.

    Look if you believe it is really horrendous, which I think many MPs do/did, they may think it's worth the cost of calling for a 2nd ref. That was the gamble and it didn't pay off.

    I've been fairly consistent since the vote that you're better off going for as soft a brexit as possible. BB is probably right that their efforts may have been better spent focusing on that, though I don't think it would have changed that much - if you campaigned for Remain you will always be a remainer.

    But we are being sucked into a populist trap if we think that if the majority love brexit you must do the same.


    I just think you can't credibly campaign for remain and then expect to be able to get the love of brexiters 4 years down the road, regardless.

    Do you see any downsides of a really soft brexit? I do and we might as well have stayed in the EU. This is the problem for Labour is that while they were advocating the softest of Brexit the average Joe could see it was worse than not leaving. Once we had left I think there are a fair few that think it is a case of in for a penny in for a pound.
    I think you answered the question already.

    I recon 95% of the cost of Brexit the UK will experience results from leaving the SM and CU.

    It satisfies the result, both in terms of the margin of victory and the victory itself. It was also what the winning side campaigned on.

    It is also much easier to back out of that position than it is the current position. You could take your time without the EU running down the clock to come up with more creative, equal solutions.

    You could, if subsequent governments chose to, slowly dismantle the integration, in a way that managed the cost of disruption and maximised opportunities etc.
    _
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    john80 said:

    morstar said:

    I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a large proportion of the electorate are stupid.

    However, they still have a vote that counts.

    How you deal with that fact is up to you but, holding them in contempt for their stupidity can be problematic.

    I was in the playground this morning dropping the kids off and if I were to pick out the parents that I thought were stupid I would not have found that many. It comes back to that argument that if you keep testing a fish for its ability to climb a tree then it will continually fail. There are many different types of intelligence and unfortunately humans are not good and identifying the intelligence types that are not theirs.
    FWIW, I’m not hung up on academic intelligence. Quite the opposite which is why I believe Gove was a truly awful education secretary.

    I don’t believe you have to be intelligent to be a worthwhile person either.

    However, I’m not going to back away from the fact that some people are inherently stupid on many levels. They still get to vote and if you want their vote, the onus is on you to look past that and not belittle them for it.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,903
    Dorset_Boy said:

    Well they have 3 years to sort something out.
    Why is it such a scandal with good advance notice?

    Because it's completely unnecessary. Election fraud is virtually non-existent in this country, so the only reason for bringing this in is to reduce turnout. Which is as cynical as it gets.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,968
    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Sure.

    Look if you believe it is really horrendous, which I think many MPs do/did, they may think it's worth the cost of calling for a 2nd ref. That was the gamble and it didn't pay off.

    I've been fairly consistent since the vote that you're better off going for as soft a brexit as possible. BB is probably right that their efforts may have been better spent focusing on that, though I don't think it would have changed that much - if you campaigned for Remain you will always be a remainer.

    But we are being sucked into a populist trap if we think that if the majority love brexit you must do the same.


    I just think you can't credibly campaign for remain and then expect to be able to get the love of brexiters 4 years down the road, regardless.

    i think you can, but only if you demonstrate acceptance of the result and a willingness to make the best of it.

    Nail. Head.

    Unfortunately some are still struggling with this.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Sure.

    Look if you believe it is really horrendous, which I think many MPs do/did, they may think it's worth the cost of calling for a 2nd ref. That was the gamble and it didn't pay off.

    I've been fairly consistent since the vote that you're better off going for as soft a brexit as possible. BB is probably right that their efforts may have been better spent focusing on that, though I don't think it would have changed that much - if you campaigned for Remain you will always be a remainer.

    But we are being sucked into a populist trap if we think that if the majority love brexit you must do the same.


    I just think you can't credibly campaign for remain and then expect to be able to get the love of brexiters 4 years down the road, regardless.

    i think you can, but only if you demonstrate acceptance of the result and a willingness to make the best of it.

    I think that is too tough as you are tainted as insincere about it, and anything that is 'making the best of it' runs counter to the revolutionary spirit of the gov't.
    _
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,295
    edited May 2021
    What form does "acceptance of the result" take? I accept that people voted to leave, but still think it's a bad thing for Britain and the EU. Also working quite normally as I was before, with making the amended VAT rules, duty etc work. It's the new reality, it's no major difference, just not quite as good as the old one.

    Do people think that the average remain voter wakes up every day and cries over lost opportunities? If I worked in a company that had its market taken away overnight, it would probably be different.
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    People have accepted Brexit, it's just they still think it's a bloody silly thing to have done and much of the evidence we've seen so far about how Brexit is going, seems to show that Brexit was a silly idea.

    We accept that Boris is PM, but we still think he's a lying, cheating, philanderer who doesn't know his arse from his elbow.
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
    www.seewildlife.co.uk
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    From good old Wiki

    The Conservative and Unionist Party (usually shortened to Conservative Party, or informally as the Tory Party) is the main centre-right political party in the United Kingdom. ... The party has generally had liberal economic policies. that favours free market economics, and deregulation, privatisation, and marketisation.

    Boris Johnson is a hard left politician who favours state intervention, regulation, nationalisation, and control of markets.
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    surrey_commuter said:

    From good old Wiki

    The Conservative and Unionist Party (usually shortened to Conservative Party, or informally as the Tory Party) is the main centre-right political party in the United Kingdom. ... The party has generally had liberal economic policies. that favours free market economics, and deregulation, privatisation, and marketisation.

    Boris Johnson is a hard left politician who favours state intervention, regulation, nationalisation, and control of markets.

    Not to mention, has seemingly sacrificed the union...
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
    www.seewildlife.co.uk
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    surrey_commuter said:

    From good old Wiki

    The Conservative and Unionist Party (usually shortened to Conservative Party, or informally as the Tory Party) is the main centre-right political party in the United Kingdom. ... The party has generally had liberal economic policies. that favours free market economics, and deregulation, privatisation, and marketisation.

    Boris Johnson is a hard left politician who favours state intervention, regulation, nationalisation, and control of markets.

    He’s not hard left he’s populist right wing.

    What you describe falls into that category.
    _

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