LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

I'd like to see the equivalent curve showing the voting patterns for smartarses and know-it-alls, though I recognise that is less likely to be the subject of a study by academics

Oh lighten up.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

I'd like to see the equivalent curve showing the voting patterns for smartarses and know-it-alls, though I recognise that is less likely to be the subject of a study by academics

Oh lighten up.

Blimey, if that's not light hearted enough for you I don't know what is...

Edited to add this:

bikes_and_dogs

Complaining about the strain on our public services and accepting record immigration figures strikes me as a paradox.
Even the traditionally liberal Dutch are swinging to the far right.
Over to you Keir Starmer. Sitting on the fence without any meaningful conviction may be his undoing.

briantrumpet

Oops.

https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1727702824182521895

pblakeney

The Telegraph is becoming more and more leftiebollox. 😉
Imagine that paper not getting behind the tories, whatever next?

briantrumpet

pblakeney said:

The Telegraph is becoming more and more leftiebollox. 😉
Imagine that paper not getting behind the tories, whatever next?

Don't worry, they've still got writers to keep Stevo happy.

pblakeney

briantrumpet said:

pblakeney said:

The Telegraph is becoming more and more leftiebollox. 😉
Imagine that paper not getting behind the tories, whatever next?

Don't worry, they've still got writers to keep Stevo happy.

Bit of a backhanded compliment though. 🤣

briantrumpet

pblakeney said:

The Telegraph is becoming more and more leftiebollox. 😉
Imagine that paper not getting behind the tories, whatever next?

Actually, you might have a point. They pay this pinko leftie editor of The Spectator to write Telegraph columns.

https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1727605119041044488

rjsterry

"pension bribe"

Warms the cockles of Chasey's heart 😁

super_davo

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Thing I dislike is the cynicism of it all. Tax burdens have raised massively through freezing of tax bands throughout the high inflation period. We're not really in any better position financially than in any year of this parliament; borrowing is still sky high as are debt repayments.

Why cut NI now? Because they think we're all stupid enough to forget the last 13 years of being squeezed by seeing headlines like "Biggest tax cut since the 80s" from papers that are acting as propaganda machines. When the "stealth" freezing of the bands is effectively taking more than the cut is giving anyway.

It's all so cynical, and so far away from governing in the best interests of the country.

I thought you would approve of more tax being collected?

More tax is being collected. Just not quite as much more.

Let's give super davo a chance to answer the question himself.

Why do you think I want more tax being collected?

Overall tax burden of 40-45% is pretty normal in most Western economies and we're in that range. It's how you collect it and what you do with it that counts.

My biggest bugbear with the UK tax & benefit system is the money we spend on "in work benefits" and housing credit. That distorts both markets, because it means companies can offer and people accept lower wages than the market would settle on, and in respect of housing credit it basically just becomes a straight transfer from state to private landlords.

My second biggest bugbear is the cliff edge tax rates like when UC drops off or you start losing tax credits or personal tax credit threshold. These create crazy incentives, and there are fixes for each of these.

I don't subscribe to the "if its public it must be bad" mantra that has blighted this country since the 80s. We've privatised things that don't make sense to be privatised like water and public transport, put completely inadequate regulatory regimes in place, and end up paying subsidies to keep it all afloat.

Finally, I would like public services that work. I already pay a significant amount in tax, I don't want to have to spend more on top for private medical insurance, for education etc. If it means I have to pay more tax myself, that's fine. But paying the amount I already do for the chocolate teapot service we receive and then having to pay all over again smarts.

Stevo_666

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

People get annoyed by smart arses, but they should be more annoyed that they're usually right, and that's what annoying about them

Do you find me annoying?

Not at all.

Glad you didn't reply with a smartarse comment

Stevo_666

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Thing I dislike is the cynicism of it all. Tax burdens have raised massively through freezing of tax bands throughout the high inflation period. We're not really in any better position financially than in any year of this parliament; borrowing is still sky high as are debt repayments.

Why cut NI now? Because they think we're all stupid enough to forget the last 13 years of being squeezed by seeing headlines like "Biggest tax cut since the 80s" from papers that are acting as propaganda machines. When the "stealth" freezing of the bands is effectively taking more than the cut is giving anyway.

It's all so cynical, and so far away from governing in the best interests of the country.

I thought you would approve of more tax being collected?

More tax is being collected. Just not quite as much more.

Let's give super davo a chance to answer the question himself.

Why do you think I want more tax being collected?

Overall tax burden of 40-45% is pretty normal in most Western economies and we're in that range. It's how you collect it and what you do with it that counts.

My biggest bugbear with the UK tax & benefit system is the money we spend on "in work benefits" and housing credit. That distorts both markets, because it means companies can offer and people accept lower wages than the market would settle on, and in respect of housing credit it basically just becomes a straight transfer from state to private landlords.

My second biggest bugbear is the cliff edge tax rates like when UC drops off or you start losing tax credits or personal tax credit threshold. These create crazy incentives, and there are fixes for each of these.

I don't subscribe to the "if its public it must be bad" mantra that has blighted this country since the 80s. We've privatised things that don't make sense to be privatised like water and public transport, put completely inadequate regulatory regimes in place, and end up paying subsidies to keep it all afloat.

Finally, I would like public services that work. I already pay a significant amount in tax, I don't want to have to spend more on top for private medical insurance, for education etc. If it means I have to pay more tax myself, that's fine. But paying the amount I already do for the chocolate teapot service we receive and then having to pay all over again smarts.

You were questioning why cut NI now so I assumed you saw that as a bad thing.

Thst said, do you see Labour or any other party fixing the problems that you mention above?

bikes_and_dogs

Politics seems to be full of folk pointing the finger at the other side. As the old saying goes "Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions"
Over to you Keir (sit on the fence) Starmer.

super_davo

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Thing I dislike is the cynicism of it all. Tax burdens have raised massively through freezing of tax bands throughout the high inflation period. We're not really in any better position financially than in any year of this parliament; borrowing is still sky high as are debt repayments.

Why cut NI now? Because they think we're all stupid enough to forget the last 13 years of being squeezed by seeing headlines like "Biggest tax cut since the 80s" from papers that are acting as propaganda machines. When the "stealth" freezing of the bands is effectively taking more than the cut is giving anyway.

It's all so cynical, and so far away from governing in the best interests of the country.

I thought you would approve of more tax being collected?

More tax is being collected. Just not quite as much more.

Let's give super davo a chance to answer the question himself.

Why do you think I want more tax being collected?

Overall tax burden of 40-45% is pretty normal in most Western economies and we're in that range. It's how you collect it and what you do with it that counts.

My biggest bugbear with the UK tax & benefit system is the money we spend on "in work benefits" and housing credit. That distorts both markets, because it means companies can offer and people accept lower wages than the market would settle on, and in respect of housing credit it basically just becomes a straight transfer from state to private landlords.

My second biggest bugbear is the cliff edge tax rates like when UC drops off or you start losing tax credits or personal tax credit threshold. These create crazy incentives, and there are fixes for each of these.

I don't subscribe to the "if its public it must be bad" mantra that has blighted this country since the 80s. We've privatised things that don't make sense to be privatised like water and public transport, put completely inadequate regulatory regimes in place, and end up paying subsidies to keep it all afloat.

Finally, I would like public services that work. I already pay a significant amount in tax, I don't want to have to spend more on top for private medical insurance, for education etc. If it means I have to pay more tax myself, that's fine. But paying the amount I already do for the chocolate teapot service we receive and then having to pay all over again smarts.

You were questioning why cut NI now so I assumed you saw that as a bad thing.

Thst said, do you see Labour or any other party fixing the problems that you mention above?

This current government is historically bad. There is corruption, there is a cynical disregard for the public they serve, their record is poor across a wide range of areas and the public have lost faith with them. The country has never united after the hugely divisive referendum they called and they are not interested in fixing that, they will happily create divisions and culture wars to improve their chances of election.

Labour are the only ticket out of here. They don't have to be very good to be an improvement. But I think they will be solid - they've got serious, non-dogmatic people in key roles, they are listening, they are making the right noises. There are a lot of things I don't like such as the "don't scare the red walk" approach to Europe, but even that is an improvement on today's position.

rick_chasey

bikes_and_dogs said:

Complaining about the strain on our public services and accepting record immigration figures strikes me as a paradox.
Even the traditionally liberal Dutch are swinging to the far right.
Over to you Keir Starmer. Sitting on the fence without any meaningful conviction may be his undoing.

Curious about the logic here.

How do you square this position with the point that a) those services rely on a lot of migrant labour and part of their struggles are to do with huge levels of vacancies and b) part of the UK’s inflation problem is a shortage of workers in general?

And why do you not think austerity is the main culprit in light of the above?

rick_chasey

bikes_and_dogs said:

Politics seems to be full of folk pointing the finger at the other side. As the old saying goes "Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions"
Over to you Keir (sit on the fence) Starmer.

I’m not sure you’d like the solutions he will be suggesting.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

bikes_and_dogs said:

Complaining about the strain on our public services and accepting record immigration figures strikes me as a paradox.
Even the traditionally liberal Dutch are swinging to the far right.
Over to you Keir Starmer. Sitting on the fence without any meaningful conviction may be his undoing.

Curious about the logic here.

How do you square this position with the point that a) those services rely on a lot of migrant labour and part of their struggles are to do with huge levels of vacancies and b) part of the UK’s inflation problem is a shortage of workers in general?

And why do you not think austerity is the main culprit in light of the above?

This is my point about good quality data.
There is roughly one doctor per thousand patients in the UK. With all the commings and goings did we end up with at least 750 more GPs?

My hunch is that the majority of EU immigrants were young, educated, healthy and childless who then left before their circumstances changed so making them massive contributors to the UK coffers.

If the trebling of net migration is because of non-working age, uneducated and unhealthy who are moving permanently then the UK needs to figure that out quickly and decide how they are going to provide for them.

If we had a longstanding gousing crisis then where n God's name are 700,000 extra people sleeping every night?

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

If we had a longstanding gousing crisis then where n God's name are 700,000 extra people sleeping every night?

Spend more time in London and you'll see. Most people I know live in townhouses that have been converted into 3 flats.

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

bikes_and_dogs said:

Complaining about the strain on our public services and accepting record immigration figures strikes me as a paradox.
Even the traditionally liberal Dutch are swinging to the far right.
Over to you Keir Starmer. Sitting on the fence without any meaningful conviction may be his undoing.

Curious about the logic here.

How do you square this position with the point that a) those services rely on a lot of migrant labour and part of their struggles are to do with huge levels of vacancies and b) part of the UK’s inflation problem is a shortage of workers in general?

And why do you not think austerity is the main culprit in light of the above?

This is my point about good quality data.
There is roughly one doctor per thousand patients in the UK. With all the commings and goings did we end up with at least 750 more GPs?

My hunch is that the majority of EU immigrants were young, educated, healthy and childless who then left before their circumstances changed so making them massive contributors to the UK coffers.

If the trebling of net migration is because of non-working age, uneducated and unhealthy who are moving permanently then the UK needs to figure that out quickly and decide how they are going to provide for them.

If we had a longstanding gousing crisis then where n God's name are 700,000 extra people sleeping every night?

What makes you think that is the case? I assumed most are student and workers.

Stevo_666

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Thing I dislike is the cynicism of it all. Tax burdens have raised massively through freezing of tax bands throughout the high inflation period. We're not really in any better position financially than in any year of this parliament; borrowing is still sky high as are debt repayments.

Why cut NI now? Because they think we're all stupid enough to forget the last 13 years of being squeezed by seeing headlines like "Biggest tax cut since the 80s" from papers that are acting as propaganda machines. When the "stealth" freezing of the bands is effectively taking more than the cut is giving anyway.

It's all so cynical, and so far away from governing in the best interests of the country.

I thought you would approve of more tax being collected?

More tax is being collected. Just not quite as much more.

Let's give super davo a chance to answer the question himself.

Why do you think I want more tax being collected?

Overall tax burden of 40-45% is pretty normal in most Western economies and we're in that range. It's how you collect it and what you do with it that counts.

My biggest bugbear with the UK tax & benefit system is the money we spend on "in work benefits" and housing credit. That distorts both markets, because it means companies can offer and people accept lower wages than the market would settle on, and in respect of housing credit it basically just becomes a straight transfer from state to private landlords.

My second biggest bugbear is the cliff edge tax rates like when UC drops off or you start losing tax credits or personal tax credit threshold. These create crazy incentives, and there are fixes for each of these.

I don't subscribe to the "if its public it must be bad" mantra that has blighted this country since the 80s. We've privatised things that don't make sense to be privatised like water and public transport, put completely inadequate regulatory regimes in place, and end up paying subsidies to keep it all afloat.

Finally, I would like public services that work. I already pay a significant amount in tax, I don't want to have to spend more on top for private medical insurance, for education etc. If it means I have to pay more tax myself, that's fine. But paying the amount I already do for the chocolate teapot service we receive and then having to pay all over again smarts.

You were questioning why cut NI now so I assumed you saw that as a bad thing.

Thst said, do you see Labour or any other party fixing the problems that you mention above?

This current government is historically bad. There is corruption, there is a cynical disregard for the public they serve, their record is poor across a wide range of areas and the public have lost faith with them. The country has never united after the hugely divisive referendum they called and they are not interested in fixing that, they will happily create divisions and culture wars to improve their chances of election.

Labour are the only ticket out of here. They don't have to be very good to be an improvement. But I think they will be solid - they've got serious, non-dogmatic people in key roles, they are listening, they are making the right noises. There are a lot of things I don't like such as the "don't scare the red walk" approach to Europe, but even that is an improvement on today's position.

I admire your faith in Labour to make a difference but tbh I don't see how they are going to do that with pretty much same financial resources as they have now, a lack of experience in government and the inevitable queue of unions, public sector bodies, quangos etc outside Reeve's door all expecting a big pay day/funding rounds. And the hard left lurking beneath the surface, although at least they aren't in the driving seat currently.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

bikes_and_dogs said:

Complaining about the strain on our public services and accepting record immigration figures strikes me as a paradox.
Even the traditionally liberal Dutch are swinging to the far right.
Over to you Keir Starmer. Sitting on the fence without any meaningful conviction may be his undoing.

Curious about the logic here.

How do you square this position with the point that a) those services rely on a lot of migrant labour and part of their struggles are to do with huge levels of vacancies and b) part of the UK’s inflation problem is a shortage of workers in general?

And why do you not think austerity is the main culprit in light of the above?

This is my point about good quality data.
There is roughly one doctor per thousand patients in the UK. With all the commings and goings did we end up with at least 750 more GPs?

My hunch is that the majority of EU immigrants were young, educated, healthy and childless who then left before their circumstances changed so making them massive contributors to the UK coffers.

If the trebling of net migration is because of non-working age, uneducated and unhealthy who are moving permanently then the UK needs to figure that out quickly and decide how they are going to provide for them.

If we had a longstanding gousing crisis then where n God's name are 700,000 extra people sleeping every night?

What makes you think that is the case? I assumed most are student and workers.

Taken from the Times - in summary the problem is that non-EU workers and students are bringing more dependents with them

Work-related visas accounted for 585,744, but only 335,447 of those were actual workers and the rest were their dependants. Foreign health and care workers were behind the rise over the past year, with 143,990 coming here to work. Health and care workers are the most likely to bring dependants with them, with 190,254 coming over the past year. Overall the number of family members coming over with foreign workers has more than quadrupled, when compared with before the pandemic.

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) says this suggests that migrants in the new system are more likely to settle in the UK than those who came before.

• Braverman takes aim at Sunak as net migration hits 745,000 record

The rise in international students is also behind the record-high levels, with 486,107 students and an additional 152,980 dependants adding to the figures in the year to June, more than double the numbers seen before the pandemic. Again, this is down to active government policy, with Boris Johnson’s government making it a target to attract 600,000 foreign students each year, a goal it met seven years early.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Thing I dislike is the cynicism of it all. Tax burdens have raised massively through freezing of tax bands throughout the high inflation period. We're not really in any better position financially than in any year of this parliament; borrowing is still sky high as are debt repayments.

Why cut NI now? Because they think we're all stupid enough to forget the last 13 years of being squeezed by seeing headlines like "Biggest tax cut since the 80s" from papers that are acting as propaganda machines. When the "stealth" freezing of the bands is effectively taking more than the cut is giving anyway.

It's all so cynical, and so far away from governing in the best interests of the country.

I thought you would approve of more tax being collected?

More tax is being collected. Just not quite as much more.

Let's give super davo a chance to answer the question himself.

Why do you think I want more tax being collected?

Overall tax burden of 40-45% is pretty normal in most Western economies and we're in that range. It's how you collect it and what you do with it that counts.

My biggest bugbear with the UK tax & benefit system is the money we spend on "in work benefits" and housing credit. That distorts both markets, because it means companies can offer and people accept lower wages than the market would settle on, and in respect of housing credit it basically just becomes a straight transfer from state to private landlords.

My second biggest bugbear is the cliff edge tax rates like when UC drops off or you start losing tax credits or personal tax credit threshold. These create crazy incentives, and there are fixes for each of these.

I don't subscribe to the "if its public it must be bad" mantra that has blighted this country since the 80s. We've privatised things that don't make sense to be privatised like water and public transport, put completely inadequate regulatory regimes in place, and end up paying subsidies to keep it all afloat.

Finally, I would like public services that work. I already pay a significant amount in tax, I don't want to have to spend more on top for private medical insurance, for education etc. If it means I have to pay more tax myself, that's fine. But paying the amount I already do for the chocolate teapot service we receive and then having to pay all over again smarts.

You were questioning why cut NI now so I assumed you saw that as a bad thing.

Thst said, do you see Labour or any other party fixing the problems that you mention above?

This current government is historically bad. There is corruption, there is a cynical disregard for the public they serve, their record is poor across a wide range of areas and the public have lost faith with them. The country has never united after the hugely divisive referendum they called and they are not interested in fixing that, they will happily create divisions and culture wars to improve their chances of election.

Labour are the only ticket out of here. They don't have to be very good to be an improvement. But I think they will be solid - they've got serious, non-dogmatic people in key roles, they are listening, they are making the right noises. There are a lot of things I don't like such as the "don't scare the red walk" approach to Europe, but even that is an improvement on today's position.

I admire your faith in Labour to make a difference but tbh I don't see how they are going to do that with pretty much same financial resources as they have now, a lack of experience in government and the inevitable queue of unions, public sector bodies, quangos etc outside Reeve's door all expecting a big pay day/funding rounds. And the hard left lurking beneath the surface, although at least they aren't in the driving seat currently.

As opposed to what? PPF crooks? Or crooked financing firms like Greensill? Come on.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Thing I dislike is the cynicism of it all. Tax burdens have raised massively through freezing of tax bands throughout the high inflation period. We're not really in any better position financially than in any year of this parliament; borrowing is still sky high as are debt repayments.

Why cut NI now? Because they think we're all stupid enough to forget the last 13 years of being squeezed by seeing headlines like "Biggest tax cut since the 80s" from papers that are acting as propaganda machines. When the "stealth" freezing of the bands is effectively taking more than the cut is giving anyway.

It's all so cynical, and so far away from governing in the best interests of the country.

I thought you would approve of more tax being collected?

More tax is being collected. Just not quite as much more.

Let's give super davo a chance to answer the question himself.

Why do you think I want more tax being collected?

Overall tax burden of 40-45% is pretty normal in most Western economies and we're in that range. It's how you collect it and what you do with it that counts.

My biggest bugbear with the UK tax & benefit system is the money we spend on "in work benefits" and housing credit. That distorts both markets, because it means companies can offer and people accept lower wages than the market would settle on, and in respect of housing credit it basically just becomes a straight transfer from state to private landlords.

My second biggest bugbear is the cliff edge tax rates like when UC drops off or you start losing tax credits or personal tax credit threshold. These create crazy incentives, and there are fixes for each of these.

I don't subscribe to the "if its public it must be bad" mantra that has blighted this country since the 80s. We've privatised things that don't make sense to be privatised like water and public transport, put completely inadequate regulatory regimes in place, and end up paying subsidies to keep it all afloat.

Finally, I would like public services that work. I already pay a significant amount in tax, I don't want to have to spend more on top for private medical insurance, for education etc. If it means I have to pay more tax myself, that's fine. But paying the amount I already do for the chocolate teapot service we receive and then having to pay all over again smarts.

You were questioning why cut NI now so I assumed you saw that as a bad thing.

Thst said, do you see Labour or any other party fixing the problems that you mention above?

This current government is historically bad. There is corruption, there is a cynical disregard for the public they serve, their record is poor across a wide range of areas and the public have lost faith with them. The country has never united after the hugely divisive referendum they called and they are not interested in fixing that, they will happily create divisions and culture wars to improve their chances of election.

Labour are the only ticket out of here. They don't have to be very good to be an improvement. But I think they will be solid - they've got serious, non-dogmatic people in key roles, they are listening, they are making the right noises. There are a lot of things I don't like such as the "don't scare the red walk" approach to Europe, but even that is an improvement on today's position.

I admire your faith in Labour to make a difference but tbh I don't see how they are going to do that with pretty much same financial resources as they have now, a lack of experience in government and the inevitable queue of unions, public sector bodies, quangos etc outside Reeve's door all expecting a big pay day/funding rounds. And the hard left lurking beneath the surface, although at least they aren't in the driving seat currently.

As opposed to what? PPF crooks? Or crooked financing firms like Greensill? Come on.

Do you think what I said isn't going to happen?

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

If we had a longstanding gousing crisis then where n God's name are 700,000 extra people sleeping every night?

Spend more time in London and you'll see. Most people I know live in townhouses that have been converted into 3 flats.

That has been the case for at least 30 years.

My point is that we already had a shortage of housing and yet last year 700,000 people turned up.

Where did they all go? Did a big % move in with family already here and if so is that a permanent arrangement.

If the 700,000 is to continue then they should find out more so that they can be planned for in the future provision of public services

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

If we had a longstanding gousing crisis then where n God's name are 700,000 extra people sleeping every night?

Spend more time in London and you'll see. Most people I know live in townhouses that have been converted into 3 flats.

That has been the case for at least 30 years.

My point is that we already had a shortage of housing and yet last year 700,000 people turned up.

Where did they all go? Did a big % move in with family already here and if so is that a permanent arrangement.

If the 700,000 is to continue then they should find out more so that they can be planned for in the future provision of public services

They're all crammed into tiny flats.

Like me in my shoebox. 2 bed with a family for 4 soon. Looking forward to that.

First.Aspect

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Thing I dislike is the cynicism of it all. Tax burdens have raised massively through freezing of tax bands throughout the high inflation period. We're not really in any better position financially than in any year of this parliament; borrowing is still sky high as are debt repayments.

Why cut NI now? Because they think we're all stupid enough to forget the last 13 years of being squeezed by seeing headlines like "Biggest tax cut since the 80s" from papers that are acting as propaganda machines. When the "stealth" freezing of the bands is effectively taking more than the cut is giving anyway.

It's all so cynical, and so far away from governing in the best interests of the country.

I thought you would approve of more tax being collected?

More tax is being collected. Just not quite as much more.

Let's give super davo a chance to answer the question himself.

Why do you think I want more tax being collected?

Overall tax burden of 40-45% is pretty normal in most Western economies and we're in that range. It's how you collect it and what you do with it that counts.

My biggest bugbear with the UK tax & benefit system is the money we spend on "in work benefits" and housing credit. That distorts both markets, because it means companies can offer and people accept lower wages than the market would settle on, and in respect of housing credit it basically just becomes a straight transfer from state to private landlords.

My second biggest bugbear is the cliff edge tax rates like when UC drops off or you start losing tax credits or personal tax credit threshold. These create crazy incentives, and there are fixes for each of these.

I don't subscribe to the "if its public it must be bad" mantra that has blighted this country since the 80s. We've privatised things that don't make sense to be privatised like water and public transport, put completely inadequate regulatory regimes in place, and end up paying subsidies to keep it all afloat.

Finally, I would like public services that work. I already pay a significant amount in tax, I don't want to have to spend more on top for private medical insurance, for education etc. If it means I have to pay more tax myself, that's fine. But paying the amount I already do for the chocolate teapot service we receive and then having to pay all over again smarts.

You were questioning why cut NI now so I assumed you saw that as a bad thing.

Thst said, do you see Labour or any other party fixing the problems that you mention above?

This current government is historically bad. There is corruption, there is a cynical disregard for the public they serve, their record is poor across a wide range of areas and the public have lost faith with them. The country has never united after the hugely divisive referendum they called and they are not interested in fixing that, they will happily create divisions and culture wars to improve their chances of election.

Labour are the only ticket out of here. They don't have to be very good to be an improvement. But I think they will be solid - they've got serious, non-dogmatic people in key roles, they are listening, they are making the right noises. There are a lot of things I don't like such as the "don't scare the red walk" approach to Europe, but even that is an improvement on today's position.

I admire your faith in Labour to make a difference but tbh I don't see how they are going to do that with pretty much same financial resources as they have now, a lack of experience in government and the inevitable queue of unions, public sector bodies, quangos etc outside Reeve's door all expecting a big pay day/funding rounds. And the hard left lurking beneath the surface, although at least they aren't in the driving seat currently.

It's more about stopping the bleeding Stevo.

I think most people will acknowledge that the current Labour party aren't visionaries, and that the level of support is just "not Tory".

The most optimistic thing I can say is that this is nearing the end of the UKs flirt with populism, and that a new more moderate and boring Conservative party would quickly recover support.

This would require some of the current bunch to move on - bit like Man U, they've had several managers now and been shit for all of them - and for the gammon heavy membership to stop electing idiots.

surrey_commuter

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Thing I dislike is the cynicism of it all. Tax burdens have raised massively through freezing of tax bands throughout the high inflation period. We're not really in any better position financially than in any year of this parliament; borrowing is still sky high as are debt repayments.

Why cut NI now? Because they think we're all stupid enough to forget the last 13 years of being squeezed by seeing headlines like "Biggest tax cut since the 80s" from papers that are acting as propaganda machines. When the "stealth" freezing of the bands is effectively taking more than the cut is giving anyway.

It's all so cynical, and so far away from governing in the best interests of the country.

I thought you would approve of more tax being collected?

More tax is being collected. Just not quite as much more.

Let's give super davo a chance to answer the question himself.

Why do you think I want more tax being collected?

Overall tax burden of 40-45% is pretty normal in most Western economies and we're in that range. It's how you collect it and what you do with it that counts.

My biggest bugbear with the UK tax & benefit system is the money we spend on "in work benefits" and housing credit. That distorts both markets, because it means companies can offer and people accept lower wages than the market would settle on, and in respect of housing credit it basically just becomes a straight transfer from state to private landlords.

My second biggest bugbear is the cliff edge tax rates like when UC drops off or you start losing tax credits or personal tax credit threshold. These create crazy incentives, and there are fixes for each of these.

I don't subscribe to the "if its public it must be bad" mantra that has blighted this country since the 80s. We've privatised things that don't make sense to be privatised like water and public transport, put completely inadequate regulatory regimes in place, and end up paying subsidies to keep it all afloat.

Finally, I would like public services that work. I already pay a significant amount in tax, I don't want to have to spend more on top for private medical insurance, for education etc. If it means I have to pay more tax myself, that's fine. But paying the amount I already do for the chocolate teapot service we receive and then having to pay all over again smarts.

You were questioning why cut NI now so I assumed you saw that as a bad thing.

Thst said, do you see Labour or any other party fixing the problems that you mention above?

This current government is historically bad. There is corruption, there is a cynical disregard for the public they serve, their record is poor across a wide range of areas and the public have lost faith with them. The country has never united after the hugely divisive referendum they called and they are not interested in fixing that, they will happily create divisions and culture wars to improve their chances of election.

Labour are the only ticket out of here. They don't have to be very good to be an improvement. But I think they will be solid - they've got serious, non-dogmatic people in key roles, they are listening, they are making the right noises. There are a lot of things I don't like such as the "don't scare the red walk" approach to Europe, but even that is an improvement on today's position.

I admire your faith in Labour to make a difference but tbh I don't see how they are going to do that with pretty much same financial resources as they have now, a lack of experience in government and the inevitable queue of unions, public sector bodies, quangos etc outside Reeve's door all expecting a big pay day/funding rounds. And the hard left lurking beneath the surface, although at least they aren't in the driving seat currently.

It's more about stopping the bleeding Stevo.

I think most people will acknowledge that the current Labour party aren't visionaries, and that the level of support is just "not Tory".

The most optimistic thing I can say is that this is nearing the end of the UKs flirt with populism, and that a new more moderate and boring Conservative party would quickly recover support.

This would require some of the current bunch to move on - bit like Man U, they've had several managers now and been censored for all of them - and for the gammon heavy membership to stop electing idiots.

everybody should pray the Tories do alright at the election as otherwise they risk having their Corbyn moment from which they may never return

wallace_and_gromit

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Thing I dislike is the cynicism of it all. Tax burdens have raised massively through freezing of tax bands throughout the high inflation period. We're not really in any better position financially than in any year of this parliament; borrowing is still sky high as are debt repayments.

Why cut NI now? Because they think we're all stupid enough to forget the last 13 years of being squeezed by seeing headlines like "Biggest tax cut since the 80s" from papers that are acting as propaganda machines. When the "stealth" freezing of the bands is effectively taking more than the cut is giving anyway.

It's all so cynical, and so far away from governing in the best interests of the country.

I thought you would approve of more tax being collected?

More tax is being collected. Just not quite as much more.

Let's give super davo a chance to answer the question himself.

Why do you think I want more tax being collected?

Overall tax burden of 40-45% is pretty normal in most Western economies and we're in that range. It's how you collect it and what you do with it that counts.

My biggest bugbear with the UK tax & benefit system is the money we spend on "in work benefits" and housing credit. That distorts both markets, because it means companies can offer and people accept lower wages than the market would settle on, and in respect of housing credit it basically just becomes a straight transfer from state to private landlords.

My second biggest bugbear is the cliff edge tax rates like when UC drops off or you start losing tax credits or personal tax credit threshold. These create crazy incentives, and there are fixes for each of these.

I don't subscribe to the "if its public it must be bad" mantra that has blighted this country since the 80s. We've privatised things that don't make sense to be privatised like water and public transport, put completely inadequate regulatory regimes in place, and end up paying subsidies to keep it all afloat.

Finally, I would like public services that work. I already pay a significant amount in tax, I don't want to have to spend more on top for private medical insurance, for education etc. If it means I have to pay more tax myself, that's fine. But paying the amount I already do for the chocolate teapot service we receive and then having to pay all over again smarts.

You were questioning why cut NI now so I assumed you saw that as a bad thing.

Thst said, do you see Labour or any other party fixing the problems that you mention above?

This current government is historically bad. There is corruption, there is a cynical disregard for the public they serve, their record is poor across a wide range of areas and the public have lost faith with them. The country has never united after the hugely divisive referendum they called and they are not interested in fixing that, they will happily create divisions and culture wars to improve their chances of election.

Labour are the only ticket out of here. They don't have to be very good to be an improvement. But I think they will be solid - they've got serious, non-dogmatic people in key roles, they are listening, they are making the right noises. There are a lot of things I don't like such as the "don't scare the red walk" approach to Europe, but even that is an improvement on today's position.

I admire your faith in Labour to make a difference but tbh I don't see how they are going to do that with pretty much same financial resources as they have now, a lack of experience in government and the inevitable queue of unions, public sector bodies, quangos etc outside Reeve's door all expecting a big pay day/funding rounds. And the hard left lurking beneath the surface, although at least they aren't in the driving seat currently.

It's more about stopping the bleeding Stevo.

I think most people will acknowledge that the current Labour party aren't visionaries, and that the level of support is just "not Tory".

The most optimistic thing I can say is that this is nearing the end of the UKs flirt with populism, and that a new more moderate and boring Conservative party would quickly recover support.

This would require some of the current bunch to move on - bit like Man U, they've had several managers now and been censored for all of them - and for the gammon heavy membership to stop electing idiots.

I think this just about nails it, as does Super_Davo's comment about the current administration's sheer disregard for those they are meant to be serving.

Realistically, there are no silver bullets out there, and achieving the levels of prosperity nationally that we all want will be a long slog. The Tory's propensity to give "air time" and influence to idiots who simply don't understand this is seriously counterproductive. Whilst Labour will doubtless be pretty uninspiring in office, they appear to have learnt their lesson from the Corbyn experiment and have assembled a dull, boring and realistic senior team which has (from what is in the public domain) integrity.

pblakeney

The above pretty much sims things for me. Abitshit is preferable to absoluteshit.
Abitshit will still get flak.

surrey_commuter

wallace_and_gromit said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

super_davo said:

Thing I dislike is the cynicism of it all. Tax burdens have raised massively through freezing of tax bands throughout the high inflation period. We're not really in any better position financially than in any year of this parliament; borrowing is still sky high as are debt repayments.

Why cut NI now? Because they think we're all stupid enough to forget the last 13 years of being squeezed by seeing headlines like "Biggest tax cut since the 80s" from papers that are acting as propaganda machines. When the "stealth" freezing of the bands is effectively taking more than the cut is giving anyway.

It's all so cynical, and so far away from governing in the best interests of the country.

I thought you would approve of more tax being collected?

More tax is being collected. Just not quite as much more.

Let's give super davo a chance to answer the question himself.

Why do you think I want more tax being collected?

Overall tax burden of 40-45% is pretty normal in most Western economies and we're in that range. It's how you collect it and what you do with it that counts.

My biggest bugbear with the UK tax & benefit system is the money we spend on "in work benefits" and housing credit. That distorts both markets, because it means companies can offer and people accept lower wages than the market would settle on, and in respect of housing credit it basically just becomes a straight transfer from state to private landlords.

My second biggest bugbear is the cliff edge tax rates like when UC drops off or you start losing tax credits or personal tax credit threshold. These create crazy incentives, and there are fixes for each of these.

I don't subscribe to the "if its public it must be bad" mantra that has blighted this country since the 80s. We've privatised things that don't make sense to be privatised like water and public transport, put completely inadequate regulatory regimes in place, and end up paying subsidies to keep it all afloat.

Finally, I would like public services that work. I already pay a significant amount in tax, I don't want to have to spend more on top for private medical insurance, for education etc. If it means I have to pay more tax myself, that's fine. But paying the amount I already do for the chocolate teapot service we receive and then having to pay all over again smarts.

You were questioning why cut NI now so I assumed you saw that as a bad thing.

Thst said, do you see Labour or any other party fixing the problems that you mention above?

This current government is historically bad. There is corruption, there is a cynical disregard for the public they serve, their record is poor across a wide range of areas and the public have lost faith with them. The country has never united after the hugely divisive referendum they called and they are not interested in fixing that, they will happily create divisions and culture wars to improve their chances of election.

Labour are the only ticket out of here. They don't have to be very good to be an improvement. But I think they will be solid - they've got serious, non-dogmatic people in key roles, they are listening, they are making the right noises. There are a lot of things I don't like such as the "don't scare the red walk" approach to Europe, but even that is an improvement on today's position.

I admire your faith in Labour to make a difference but tbh I don't see how they are going to do that with pretty much same financial resources as they have now, a lack of experience in government and the inevitable queue of unions, public sector bodies, quangos etc outside Reeve's door all expecting a big pay day/funding rounds. And the hard left lurking beneath the surface, although at least they aren't in the driving seat currently.

It's more about stopping the bleeding Stevo.

I think most people will acknowledge that the current Labour party aren't visionaries, and that the level of support is just "not Tory".

The most optimistic thing I can say is that this is nearing the end of the UKs flirt with populism, and that a new more moderate and boring Conservative party would quickly recover support.

This would require some of the current bunch to move on - bit like Man U, they've had several managers now and been censored for all of them - and for the gammon heavy membership to stop electing idiots.

I think this just about nails it, as does Super_Davo's comment about the current administration's sheer disregard for those they are meant to be serving.

Realistically, there are no silver bullets out there, and achieving the levels of prosperity nationally that we all want will be a long slog. The Tory's propensity to give "air time" and influence to idiots who simply don't understand this is seriously counterproductive. Whilst Labour will doubtless be pretty uninspiring in office, they appear to have learnt their lesson from the Corbyn experiment and have assembled a dull, boring and realistic senior team which has (from what is in the public domain) integrity.

not doing much is undervalued in politicians