Car tax bull c++p

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  • mouth
    mouth Posts: 1,195
    dodgy wrote:
    I've been driving 35 years and have never once ran out of fuel, can't see it being any different with electricity.

    Seems to be two types of people on this thread, those looking for problems and those who have already found solutions.

    Ran out of fuel once, due to a faulty gauge - didn't know it was faulty since I was on the way home from buying the car. However, I've always owned vehicles that had a range of probably 300+ miles, and in the event of low fuel filling up takes moments. If I'm in electric, and I can plan my journey to take in charge points etc en route for a long distance run then that's fine, until my kid (lives with his Mum) takes ill in the night and have to return home on the quick. I spend a lot of time in Norfolk which is 170 miles and 3+ hours in good traffic. I can't think of a single charge point between here and there that I wouldn't have to deviate from my route to get to. I know this will change, but it'll still be little comfort if my lad is in A&E while I'm waiting for the car to charge.

    Korea (I believe) has a high-capacity induction system in the roads to charge buses at stops etc and this could be along term solution over here - there's no real reason why a smart meter fitted in the car can't monitor the billing processes. It'd be easy to install in lay by's etc without being overtly intrusive.
    The only disability in life is a poor attitude.
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    I don't believe you could drive 170 miles without going past a charging point. It's just that you don't know you pass them as they're not of interest yet.

    Nobody's saying you have to swap yet. As you say - things will change.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    I thought there was a lithium shortage?

    Battery design really has not kept pace with other tech.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    But it will catch up due to demand. Look at phone batteries. First phones where bricks. Later they shrunk. Demand for higher power usage devices led to higher rated batteries, fast charging, etc. Even now the batteries cars are becoming higher and higher capacity and faster charging.

    Increasingly they're putting fast charge points at service stations. They're not exactly hard to find on long journeys. They're the ones capable of half hour charging. Considering the driving advice for long journeys is a break every 2 hours driving that's hardly an issue for existing EVs.

    So driving 140 miles (70mph for two hours) it's within the capability of batteries being put into EVs now. Then 15 minute charge and another 70 miles gets you beyond the 170 mile distance to visit your son in the A&E hypothetical dilemma. You're likely to be at the hospital for long enough to fully charge the car again for your homeward journey.

    As ppl said earlier tech is improving and will continue improving. Problems that might exist now will be solved before universal take up of EVs and indeed are probably solved now in many cases. If course if you want to have problems you'll see then whether they exist or not. But you'll still end up taking it up sooner or later. Fighting a losing battle in afraid.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,461
    cougie wrote:
    I don't believe you could drive 170 miles without going past a charging point. It's just that you don't know you pass them as they're not of interest yet.

    Nobody's saying you have to swap yet. As you say - things will change.

    Yep, you might have to deviate from your route a bit but that's quite normal for petrol these days anyway. At least, at the moment, you can re-charge free on the motorways whereas you pay 30p per litre over the odds for petrol or diesel.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,461
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    The longevity of batteries and the disposal/recycling of them needs to be improved. It's not like batteries aren't an environmental disaster either.

    Are the batteries that much worse than you have in a standard petrol / diesel car?
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    What about your catalytic convertor? How clean is that to produce catalysts at the level of purity needed to work efficiently? Trust me it's not easy or clean. Possibly on a par with the batteries. I'm sure someone on here will know more.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Pross wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    The longevity of batteries and the disposal/recycling of them needs to be improved. It's not like batteries aren't an environmental disaster either.

    Are the batteries that much worse than you have in a standard petrol / diesel car?

    They're an order of magnitude bigger when they're powering the car's movement, no?
    _
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,512
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    The longevity of batteries and the disposal/recycling of them needs to be improved. It's not like batteries aren't an environmental disaster either.

    Are the batteries that much worse than you have in a standard petrol / diesel car?

    They're an order of magnitude bigger when they're powering the car's movement, no?

    I think Pross is talking about their relative toxicity in production and recycling, not their storage capacity. Lead and sulphuric acid versus lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    rjsterry wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    The longevity of batteries and the disposal/recycling of them needs to be improved. It's not like batteries aren't an environmental disaster either.

    Are the batteries that much worse than you have in a standard petrol / diesel car?

    They're an order of magnitude bigger when they're powering the car's movement, no?

    I think Pross is talking about their relative toxicity in production and recycling, not their storage capacity. Lead and sulphuric acid versus lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide.

    Sure, point remains though, no?

    You'd need an order of magnitude more of it all.

    My experience of rechargeable batteries is they also degrade over time; and not that long a time period.


    Point is, we're not there yet, and I think the environmental solution is much more around how we think about travel and transport than it is about what type of energy we use to power the car.

    I think electric vehicles make for easier regulation & uniformity of speed, which is ultimately where transport is heading.
    _
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,512
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    The longevity of batteries and the disposal/recycling of them needs to be improved. It's not like batteries aren't an environmental disaster either.

    Are the batteries that much worse than you have in a standard petrol / diesel car?

    They're an order of magnitude bigger when they're powering the car's movement, no?

    I think Pross is talking about their relative toxicity in production and recycling, not their storage capacity. Lead and sulphuric acid versus lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide.

    Sure, point remains though, no?

    You'd need an order of magnitude more of it all.

    My experience of rechargeable batteries is they also degrade over time; and not that long a time period.


    Point is, we're not there yet, and I think the environmental solution is much more around how we think about travel and transport than it is about what type of energy we use to power the car.

    I think electric vehicles make for easier regulation & uniformity of speed, which is ultimately where transport is heading.

    Not necessarily. There will be several orders of magnitude more spent lead acid batteries lying around the world. Recycling of both lead acid and Li-ion batteries is already well developed as they have considerable scrap value. IIRC, the only lead produced in this country is sourced entirely from recycled batteries. As for life span, as an EV owner posted up thread, this is considerably longer than a handful of old NiMH AAAs cells in your cordless phone.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • fenix
    fenix Posts: 5,437
    Thinking about the future - Electric Vehicles have got to be more reliable than ICE vehicles. A lot simpler. So a lot of garages will be looking for a different business model
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    I assume ev batteries are bigger, wouldn't larger batteries be easier to recycle?
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Fenix wrote:
    Thinking about the future - Electric Vehicles have got to be more reliable than ICE vehicles. A lot simpler. So a lot of garages will be looking for a different business model

    True; a lot of the expensive technology around fuel injection, engine management, cooling and lubrication, emission control etc immediately becomes redundant. Mechanical braking possibly too. No oil or filter changes either. They'll have to make their money out of MOT testing, tyres, steering and suspension, servicing the aircon and troubleshooting ancillary components.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Teslas are not uncommon in Northern Norway so people do manage around limited infrastructure.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Widgey
    Widgey Posts: 157
    Pross wrote:
    cougie wrote:
    I don't believe you could drive 170 miles without going past a charging point. It's just that you don't know you pass them as they're not of interest yet.

    Nobody's saying you have to swap yet. As you say - things will change.

    Yep, you might have to deviate from your route a bit but that's quite normal for petrol these days anyway. At least, at the moment, you can re-charge free on the motorways whereas you pay 30p per litre over the odds for petrol or diesel.


    Sorry to be the doom and gloom but cannot charge at fast charge motorway points for free anymore. Now costs 30p per kWh (or 15p if your an ecotricity customer). Used to be free around 18 months ago.
    Dry Bike
    Wet Bike
  • fenix
    fenix Posts: 5,437
    Widgey - how would you say recharging costs compare to conventional cars ?

    I'm sure they'll be going up in the future to recoup lost tax on fuel anyway - so I don't think that Electric cars will offer cheaper travel on that score. They should be now though ?
  • Widgey
    Widgey Posts: 157
    Fenix wrote:
    Widgey - how would you say recharging costs compare to conventional cars ?

    I'm sure they'll be going up in the future to recoup lost tax on fuel anyway - so I don't think that Electric cars will offer cheaper travel on that score. They should be now though ?


    I dont think that they are cheaper, not anymore anyway (govt funding been slashed)

    So Renault do a "rent the battery" scheme. So I pay £50 per month to rent the battery from Renault for 6k miles per annum (could have brought the car and the battery, but the battery is a sizeable chunk of the cost, roughly 8 years of rental cost) But that does include the rescue recovery when needed (used twice in 3 years, one charger issue, one flat tyre)

    Subscription to Charge your car is £15 per annum, other subscriptions have their own costs

    Bare in mind I have no charger at home so rely on public ones.
    On average 2 charges per week at £1 each for the connection fee.
    Longer distances costs around £2.50 per charge (ecotricity customer so roughly £6 without)

    So around £58 per month

    But then 0 VED and minimal service costs

    Probably do around 5k miles a year
    Dry Bike
    Wet Bike
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,461
    Widgey wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    cougie wrote:
    I don't believe you could drive 170 miles without going past a charging point. It's just that you don't know you pass them as they're not of interest yet.

    Nobody's saying you have to swap yet. As you say - things will change.

    Yep, you might have to deviate from your route a bit but that's quite normal for petrol these days anyway. At least, at the moment, you can re-charge free on the motorways whereas you pay 30p per litre over the odds for petrol or diesel.


    Sorry to be the doom and gloom but cannot charge at fast charge motorway points for free anymore. Now costs 30p per kWh (or 15p if your an ecotricity customer). Used to be free around 18 months ago.

    Thanks, I assumed it wouldn't last long before you'd have to start paying.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    Flâneur wrote:
    wongataa wrote:
    mr_eddy wrote:
    I totally get that the treasury needs to make money but surely there are better ways - tax at the pumps for example so the more you drive the more you pay or base it on time of day driven etc.
    Taxes on fuel would be fairer but the haulage industry won't let that happen.


    would also end up being way more than £140 for the majority of car users

    The average motorist wouldn't notice it. From my time in Germany, you paid an annual licence fee for the vehicle, which was the equivalent of a fit for the road declaration and all duty was on benzine at the pump. The more you drove, the more you paid. With a big 3.0 ltr V6 diesel turbo and paying £265 per year (EU5) , I'm quite happy at the moment. Owners of older versions of my vehicle are still paying over £490 per year.

    This however, puts some perspective on the misinformation.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt ... ar_exhaust
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    philthy3 wrote:
    This however, puts some perspective on the misinformation.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt ... ar_exhaust
    Interesting read: although it should have been obvious to everyone a long time ago that it's a whole lot more complex than the simplistic "saintly electric >> dodgy petrol >> evil diesel" narrative that's going around at the moment.
  • fenix
    fenix Posts: 5,437
    Interesting figures there Widgey !

    Thanks. And even more interesting that you can't charge at home - there's a lot of cynics thinking that this would rule out E Cars for flats etc.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,512
    Fenix wrote:
    Interesting figures there Widgey !

    Thanks. And even more interesting that you can't charge at home - there's a lot of cynics thinking that this would rule out E Cars for flats etc.
    Who has a petrol pump at home?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    rjsterry wrote:
    Fenix wrote:
    Interesting figures there Widgey !

    Thanks. And even more interesting that you can't charge at home - there's a lot of cynics thinking that this would rule out E Cars for flats etc.
    Who has a petrol pump at home?
    I presume that "no charger at home" means no dedicated high-power charger, but you can always connect to a standard mains socket - it's just a bit slow.

    As for the "petrol pumps at home" argument, that will only be a valid comparison once you can charge up an electric car to the typical 300+ mile range of an ICE car (my diesel does over 500, sometimes well over) in the 5 minutes or so it takes to fill a tank. I don't think we're quite there yet, are we?.

    I think that most people would agree that they could live with the occasional long layover at a charging station if they could mostly charge up overnight at home, but having to do that every time?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,512
    bompington wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Fenix wrote:
    Interesting figures there Widgey !

    Thanks. And even more interesting that you can't charge at home - there's a lot of cynics thinking that this would rule out E Cars for flats etc.
    Who has a petrol pump at home?
    I presume that "no charger at home" means no dedicated high-power charger, but you can always connect to a standard mains socket - it's just a bit slow.

    As for the "petrol pumps at home" argument, that will only be a valid comparison once you can charge up an electric car to the typical 300+ mile range of an ICE car (my diesel does over 500, sometimes well over) in the 5 minutes or so it takes to fill a tank. I don't think we're quite there yet, are we?.

    I think that most people would agree that they could live with the occasional long layover at a charging station if they could mostly charge up overnight at home, but having to do that every time?

    I wasn't being entirely serious, but if petrol stations are already struggling to make a go of it in a lot of places, I foresee having to go out of your way to fill up will become more and more of an issue.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,461
    bompington wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Fenix wrote:
    Interesting figures there Widgey !

    Thanks. And even more interesting that you can't charge at home - there's a lot of cynics thinking that this would rule out E Cars for flats etc.
    Who has a petrol pump at home?
    I presume that "no charger at home" means no dedicated high-power charger, but you can always connect to a standard mains socket - it's just a bit slow.

    As for the "petrol pumps at home" argument, that will only be a valid comparison once you can charge up an electric car to the typical 300+ mile range of an ICE car (my diesel does over 500, sometimes well over) in the 5 minutes or so it takes to fill a tank. I don't think we're quite there yet, are we?.

    I think that most people would agree that they could live with the occasional long layover at a charging station if they could mostly charge up overnight at home, but having to do that every time?

    Better still if you can charge it up during the daytime at work, should be OK most of the time if your commute isn't significantly above average and you don't do a lot of mileage once you get home. Many new employment developments are installing charging points as part of the travel plans or BREEAM assessment.

    That said, we should still be encouraging public transport investment as a priority as even if EVs help reduce emission levels moving everyone to EVs will do nothing to reduce congestion. I've never understood why EVs are exempt from the congestion charge.
  • fenix
    fenix Posts: 5,437
    bompington wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Fenix wrote:
    Interesting figures there Widgey !

    Thanks. And even more interesting that you can't charge at home - there's a lot of cynics thinking that this would rule out E Cars for flats etc.
    Who has a petrol pump at home?
    I presume that "no charger at home" means no dedicated high-power charger, but you can always connect to a standard mains socket - it's just a bit slow.

    I don't know - i took it to mean that there's no charging at home. There are plenty of places where you can't plug an extension cord in and take it out to your car - flats or restricted parking areas etc.
  • FishFish
    FishFish Posts: 2,152
    rjsterry wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Fenix wrote:



    I wasn't being entirely serious, but if petrol stations are already struggling to make a go of it in a lot of places, I foresee having to go out of your way to fill up will become more and more of an issue.

    ...exactly. But the market response to that is a clever, and probably expensive, option of having petrol delivered to your home / car. This has started.
    ...take your pickelf on your holibobs.... :D

    jeez :roll:
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    FishFish wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Fenix wrote:



    I wasn't being entirely serious, but if petrol stations are already struggling to make a go of it in a lot of places, I foresee having to go out of your way to fill up will become more and more of an issue.

    ...exactly. But the market response to that is a clever, and probably expensive, option of having petrol delivered to your home / car. This has started.

    Only diesel so far

    Elf and safety gone mad I tells you
  • Widgey
    Widgey Posts: 157
    bompington wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Fenix wrote:
    Interesting figures there Widgey !

    Thanks. And even more interesting that you can't charge at home - there's a lot of cynics thinking that this would rule out E Cars for flats etc.
    Who has a petrol pump at home?
    I presume that "no charger at home" means no dedicated high-power charger, but you can always connect to a standard mains socket - it's just a bit slow.

    As for the "petrol pumps at home" argument, that will only be a valid comparison once you can charge up an electric car to the typical 300+ mile range of an ICE car (my diesel does over 500, sometimes well over) in the 5 minutes or so it takes to fill a tank. I don't think we're quite there yet, are we?.

    I think that most people would agree that they could live with the occasional long layover at a charging station if they could mostly charge up overnight at home, but having to do that every time?

    No charger at home means no way of charging at home... Its illegal to trail a cable over a public footpath and dont have off street parking.. The Granny cable (standard socket) has a 5m length, so plenty of distance. Renault also says that the car should be only plugged into a socket, not through a extension lead, have tried it once on an extension and tripped fuses at that house.

    Pross is right with the parking and charging at work is exactly what we do. Car is parked at a public charger and charges whilst at work - charge point is in the same car park as would use anyway.
    Dry Bike
    Wet Bike

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