Car tax bull c++p

Stevo_666

cougie wrote:

Blimey. UK to the Algarve ! That's not the norm.

Ok so you're not ready to change yet but as we've said - technology is improving. Prices will reduce. Toyota aren't selling diesels in the UK from next year. Others will follow.

In a few years time you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about electric.

The wind is definitely blowing in a certain direction. In a couple of years or so, diesels will be effectively priced out of London inside the North and South circulars assuming that Sadiq gets his way. I'm switching my spare car to a petrol job within the next year.

bompington

An attempt at qunatifying the demands

The only experience of electric cars I have is an extended test drive of a Leaf last year.
Mostly I was impressed and we nearly bought one. But it was the older battery model (22KWh if I remember right), and, although the range was quoted as something like 150 miles, on the day I drove it to work (20 miles of country roads each way) it was looking scarily empty by the time I got home. Basically, the claimed range seemed to be even more fictional than the official fuel economy figures for ICEs: I reckon I might just have got somewhere close if I'd driven at a steady 30mph the whole way.
It would have made sense for us as a second car, as we have a big (and frugal) diesel that does all the long journeys anyway.
But I can see how it can all work: for example, Nissan were offering a deal with the Leaf that allowed you to swap it for a big estate car for two weeks a year at no extra cost. The infrastructure will no doubt be developed, I bet there will be times and places where it's a struggle to find a charging point, but it can happen. Bomp jr., now a student in Glasgow, is now an enthusiastic (if occasional, due to funds) user of Co-wheels, and has managed to make it as far as Glencoe in one of their electric cars.

Famously: "the stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones"

aberdeen_lune

mr_eddy wrote:

In answer to Aberdeen lune how do you propose I get round the issue , most of us don't have £30k to buy a Nissan Leaf and given I work 38 miles away (each way) cycling is out. No trains or buses either - what should I do ?

Given moving to the area would be too costly and the fact I am in contract until 2019 I can't quit either.

At least I chose a car that pollutes as little as possible for my £5k budget

I think you are living on cloud nine if you think we will all walk and cycle everywhere doffing our caps to fellow pedestrians. In the real world we are at least 5 years from any real electric car take over

Also when all the electric cars are on the road how do we make up for the fact everyone will be paying zero tax?

My point was there must be a interim change that is better than a flat rate of £140 regardless of what type of car you drive or how far and when

My point was you shouldn’t be complaining about paying £140 vehicles emissions duty. It is a paltry sum. Wind your neck in suck it up or do something about it.

You have made choices which mean you will pollute and damage the environment. We are in a transition period moving away from oil and gas. You can either be an early adopter of the new cleaner technologies or not. If not you will be penalised with a bit of tax, sound fair to me.

Remember the Stone Age didn’t finish because we ran out of stone. Oil and gas won’t run out we will just look back and be amazed at how reliant we were on primitive technology which damaged our home world. Would you have moved on to bronze if you were alive at that time?

orraloon

The was a programme last year from BBC Scotland, Scotland Outdoors team, on tackling the North Coast 500 in an electric car. Which they did successfully. With a modicum of concern over reaching the next charging points en route. If can be done now in the wilds of northern Scotland...

Frank Wilson

orraloon wrote:

The was a programme last year from BBC Scotland, Scotland Outdoors team, on tackling the North Coast 500 in an electric car. Which they did successfully. With a modicum of concern over reaching the next charging points en route. If can be done now in the wilds of northern Scotland...

They probably had a team of researchers and back up ice vehicles.

Jez mon

Frank Wilson wrote:

orraloon wrote:

The was a programme last year from BBC Scotland, Scotland Outdoors team, on tackling the North Coast 500 in an electric car. Which they did successfully. With a modicum of concern over reaching the next charging points en route. If can be done now in the wilds of northern Scotland...

They probably had a team of researchers and back up ice vehicles.

There are 11 charging points along the way, presuming they are spread reasonably evenly, there shouldn't be too much concern about reaching the charging points, and this is in one of the least populated parts of the country.

I should imagine quite a bit of the concern was TV drama(!)

rjsterry

And when the vast majority of people who don't drive 1500miles for a holiday have switched to an EV, who will run a petrol station to serve the 3 cars a week that want it?

cougie

Man Frank is going to be screwed...

Love to do the North Coast 500 but planning on doing it by bike. So long as they have cafés I won't run out of energy.

Stevo_666

mr_eddy wrote:

In answer to Aberdeen lune how do you propose I get round the issue , most of us don't have £30k to buy a Nissan Leaf and given I work 38 miles away (each way) cycling is out. No trains or buses either - what should I do ?

Given moving to the area would be too costly and the fact I am in contract until 2019 I can't quit either.

At least I chose a car that pollutes as little as possible for my £5k budget

I think you are living on cloud nine if you think we will all walk and cycle everywhere doffing our caps to fellow pedestrians. In the real world we are at least 5 years from any real electric car take over

Also when all the electric cars are on the road how do we make up for the fact everyone will be paying zero tax?

My point was there must be a interim change that is better than a flat rate of £140 regardless of what type of car you drive or how far and when

How about you buy a better car and enjoy the relatively better value road tax on it? That's my strategy for this year while also saving the planet by ditching my oil burner.

The Rookie

Stevo 666 wrote:

How about you buy a better car and enjoy the relatively better value road tax on it? That's my strategy for this year while also saving the planet by ditching my oil burner.

Erm, oil burners save the planet (lower CO2) they just poison people in cities, if you are diving outside a town or city then Diesel is still the more environmentally friendly.

Stevo_666

The Rookie wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

How about you buy a better car and enjoy the relatively better value road tax on it? That's my strategy for this year while also saving the planet by ditching my oil burner.

Erm, oil burners save the planet (lower CO2) they just poison people in cities, if you are diving outside a town or city then Diesel is still the more environmentally friendly.

Actually that's OK as I use the oil burner mostly for long trips North to see family and West for mountain biking; then we have the petrol one for pootling round town

tangled_metal

Jez mon wrote:

Frank Wilson wrote:

orraloon wrote:

The was a programme last year from BBC Scotland, Scotland Outdoors team, on tackling the North Coast 500 in an electric car. Which they did successfully. With a modicum of concern over reaching the next charging points en route. If can be done now in the wilds of northern Scotland...

They probably had a team of researchers and back up ice vehicles.

There are 11 charging points along the way, presuming they are spread reasonably evenly, there shouldn't be too much concern about reaching the charging points, and this is in one of the least populated parts of the country.

I should imagine quite a bit of the concern was TV drama(!)

Two years ago I got a leaflet showing charging points on the Isle of Mull off the west coast of Scotland. IIRC there were more than 5 around that small island. In other areas of Scotland I've seen plenty of charging points without having the need to use them. I'm certain it's very easy to find out where they are in an area you are travelling through. No need for researchers to do that. Google is probably your friend in this.

I would expect that programme needed to make such a dull travelogue interesting. How to do that? Introduce something that most ppl would think is an element of risk but isn't really. Oh yes! Use an electric vehicle and play up on public fears of running out of charge in the EV. Just don't show the charge gauge it might work against your perception of risk thing by dispelling it.

Face it, times are changing. ICE will die out. Get on your bike or in your EV.

cougie

I've just found a YouTube about a Tesla going round the NC 500. Will watch later after Homeland..

orraloon

Scotland Outdoors is on BBC Radio. I listen to it via the podcast download.

cougie

Ta for the tip. BBC radio iPlayer is brilliant.

kingstongraham

Frank Wilson wrote:

cougie wrote:

Don't you think they'll be able to fit charging points at ground level ? Nowadays you can pay for parking on your phone. This seems very similar.

Who will pay for all this restrospective infrastructure? At the moment, in my opinion, electric cars will be for those with money and the facility to park in their double garage with power there. Look at this thread, the car everybody keeps quoting for decent mileage is a Tesla which costs mega money.

The important phrase there is "at the moment".

orraloon

I said this before somewhere, I have a niece who is doing her university course work placement year at JLR. Word is all new models, not updates to existing ranges, will either be hybrid or full electric. And that JLR are obsessed with Tesla.

rolf_f

My tax costs me round about 10p a mile! I have no sympathy for the OP!

Widgey

Electric car owner here, owned Zoe for 3 years now.

Few facts and figures - its all about the battery life and consumption.

My Zoe has a 22kw battery life, which is vastly different in Winter to Summer and what the manufacturer recommends.
Newer models coming out this year for the Zoe has a 40 kw battery. So nearly expect double what my averages are.

Winter
Short Journeys or around town - average of 3 miles per kwh - can be down in the 2.75 when seriously cold
Longer consistent Motorway - average of 3.3 miles per kwh
I usually estimate that Winter is around 60-75 miles per refill

Summer
Short Journeys or around town - average of 3.75 miles per kwh
Longer consistent Motorway -average of 4.25 miles per kwh
Again usual estimates are 70-90 miles per refill.

Dont have a charge point at home and do not have off street parking, still not a huge issue in reality.
Lots of charge points are around, just takes a bit of navigation. Lots being implemented into supermarkets now, especially around Bristol.

Charging times vary -
3 pin socket - up to 18 hours from empty
7 kwh plug which is at Park and Rides Public places - around 4 hours from empty
22 kwh chargers (Pod points use these, supermarkets ) - 1 hour from empty
43 kwh chargers Service station Ecotricity - 30 minutes

For everyday stuff - commuting, smaller journeys its no problem, longer journeys bit of preparation of planning

dinyull

What happens if you run out of elec?

A tow job to a charge point?

dodgy

I've been driving 35 years and have never once ran out of fuel, can't see it being any different with electricity.

Seems to be two types of people on this thread, those looking for problems and those who have already found solutions.

dinyull

Haha, my first comment on this thread and I'm looking for problems.

I've only ever ran out of fuel once, thanks to a faulty fuel gauge in a 18 year old car. But it happens, and is a genuine question.

Working in the construction design process, in nearly all of our projects EV charging points are being included on most jobs. Won't be long until Asda/ shopping centres have charge points in every parking space - so once they are here mainstream it won't be a problem.

dodgy

Wasn't aimed at you, more of a thematic comment of the thread overall. Just like if you have this conversation in the pub, there will be some who simply can't envisage life without the ICE, while others are confused what the fuss is all about.

Widgey

Running out of power is a problem - car has to be transported on the back of a lorry. States in manual "dont tow as messes with the regen brakes"

Which is actually easier than you think and has happened to me.
Travelling back on a longer journey - planned to re charge at services - get to services and the charge point is broken. Had probably 10 miles left of power
No sign of it being broken on the Apps etc, otherwise would have found other means.

We called rescue, told them the situation, we followed them to the other side of the motorway on the service roads to charge on the other side.

tangled_metal

Most of the times I've needed recovery I've driven up onto the ramp. I don't think I've been towed for quite some time by a recovery vehicle. Even if you get a van they tend to call for a flat bed to pick you up.

As someone said, there will be a solution for every issue raised. If we, as a species couldn't work things out, I doubt we'd have survived as a species for so long. We're not strong, fast, camouflaged, or anything.

Personally I think it would be a good experiment to try and see just how little car use we can get away with. Right now my partner keeps bringing up the idea of trying to go car less for a year. It coincides with my looking at vans to carry us and bikes, etc on trips and holidays. Here's me looking at Japanese import luxury mpv / vans and she's looking at no car.

Reducing car use is a worthwhile activity though. A year ago I was down to 1 weekday driving the rest cycling. Now it's the other way around. When I'm not driving my partner is driving even further. All journeys that an ev could easily cope with. In fact my partner would even have charging points where she works (a University). They're actually in a premium parking location too so even better.

fenix

I do wonder if the AA or someone could come up with something similar to what we have for mobile phones - a big battery on their truck that they could use to charge up the EV to give them enough battery life to get home/alternate charging site ?

About a year ago my workplace couldnt imagine functioning without paper coffee cups. 'Its such a faff to wash cups - people will steal my mug - etc etc' but now we all use our own mugs with no drama.

We can adapt pretty easily.

tangled_metal

Adapt or die.

rick_chasey

Widgey wrote:

Running out of power is a problem - car has to be transported on the back of a lorry. States in manual "dont tow as messes with the regen brakes"

Which is actually easier than you think and has happened to me.
Travelling back on a longer journey - planned to re charge at services - get to services and the charge point is broken. Had probably 10 miles left of power
No sign of it being broken on the Apps etc, otherwise would have found other means.

We called rescue, told them the situation, we followed them to the other side of the motorway on the service roads to charge on the other side.

I imagine this was a problem with petrol cars once upon a time.

"Refueling" will take longer with electric cars; this needs to be solved if the range can't improve.

The longevity of batteries and the disposal/recycling of them needs to be improved. It's not like batteries aren't an environmental disaster either.



My own view is that, eventually, driving will slowly be considered less as an individual private right, and more something that is part of a wider integrated transport network, so things like car performance (in terms of speed, acceleration, handling, etc) will become less and less important as speeds become more uniform and semi-automated across the road network.

Widgey

The longevity of batteries and the disposal/recycling of them needs to be improved. It's not like batteries aren't an environmental disaster either.

Mine has never had a problem with the longevity of life as of yet - still charges to 100% every time.
Renault say that if charging ceases to go above 80% then they will change the batteries, if part of a certain scheme with them. Who knows?!

Other problem with the batteries is that in the case of an accident, they can combust... Think the Samsung phones were an issue, imagine that 100x scaled up.

graeme_s-2

Widgey wrote:

Other problem with the batteries is that in the case of an accident, they can combust...

Thankfully the fuel in ICE cars has no such problems...